RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 9:46:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

You've heard of the Golden Rule, right? Whoever has the Gold, makes the Rules?


..... i see. So the basic DNA of your argument is that because the USA is rich it can do anything it wants in any part of the world. It may have the power to do this, but you also seem to suggest that it has the right. Your 'golden rule' is merely a reiteration of the old adage 'might makes right'.



EPGAH -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 10:05:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH
You've heard of the Golden Rule, right? Whoever has the Gold, makes the Rules?

..... i see. So the basic DNA of your argument is that because the USA is rich it can do anything it wants in any part of the world. It may have the power to do this, but you also seem to suggest that it has the right. Your 'golden rule' is merely a reiteration of the old adage 'might makes right'.

Not quite, this is DOLLAR diplomacy, not GUN diplomacy...If you wave a $5 bill under the nose of someone who "doesn't speak English", their eyes will glaze over, and they'll begin speaking English--with an accent heavy enough to crush a tank--but still: instant learning of English through dark magic! The downside is, you have to GIVE them the $5 afterwards, but that's a small price to pay for international understanding (Pun intended!)
A negative side-effect of this approach, though, is that it breeds (Again, pun intended) a generation of foreigns who believe that they should be paid for learning English, when if their job involves dealing with First Worlders, learning English would be part of it!
Also, remember, Mexicans (Among other foreigns) claim that any agreement achieved at gunpoint is not binding, which means that our acquisition of territory from them--or even from the Indians (Foreigns have mastered the Guilt Trip, but Americans fall for it willingly, in fact, quite EAGERLY!) is null and void...Then they turn around and rob our banks, convenience-stores, or private citizens, and expect the civilized beings to hand over the money, AND cry "racist" when time comes for punishment!
My argument is that if they want our money, they can learn to play by our rules, and if they want to believe their "culture" is inviolable, they obviously don't NEED our money, so they should go away and quit begging/stealing!
Whenever an American goes abroad, he BRINGS MONEY to the country/countries he visits. Some learn the language of the country they visit, others rely on the "dark magic" as outlined above, but either way, Americans pay their own way! If we believed might makes right, we could go over there, and demand they pay US for living there, then pay an additional bonus for every child we have there...Come to think of it, isn't that what the foreigns are doing to us? The "might" of their numbers should force us to bend our will to theirs?
And remember the old joke: How many cockroaches does it take to take over your apartment? Depends how many you're willing to stomp!
(Of course, we in the civilized world have insecticides--some come in pump-sprays now, to be more ecologically responsible--but the concept remains, cockroaches are only a problem if you LET them be a problem and don't squelch them the second they show up...they breed in your domain, and then you'll be very outnumbered by parasites who take your food and house, but don't pay the bills...I think SOME people would be willing to let cockroaches live with them, if the cockroaches offered to pay their own way?)
A similar idea could go for foreign criminals, no?



Maya2001 -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 2:21:03 PM)

quote:

Who is responsible for letting illegals in so easily?
Who benefits from their readiness to take work at under regular wages?
Who allows, even encourages them to retain their own culture whilst doing so?
Who might see in their presence some possible electoral advantage, should allowances be made?

Yes, you and many others are angry about all this - but the illegals are not the enemy. The enemy is the select few - Democrat and Republican, who see and/or enjoy the benefits of the situation (and indeed the benefit of allowing jobs to be exported) at the expense of you and the many others.

Again people point the finger at the politicians , but they also are not the true enemy , they are not the ones hiring the illegals,  they are simply put into position and are paid to turn the blind eye,  it is corporate america that benefits and wants the cheaper sources of labour inorder to increase their own profits and power. 
quote:

However, getting back to the initial post, tariffs were originally used to coerce Americans to buy goods from America's fledgeling industries, rather than cheaper goods from elsewhere. England had, after all, wanted us to grow raw materials for them to refine and sell back to us, which is HIGHLY predatory capitalism!
   what do you thnk the US is doing to Canada, they want our Natural resources

and what do you think the US is truly doing in the middle east????  What is there to gain that the  US really needs and wants control of ???    The US is not going into wars or peacekeeping operations  to simply provide humanitarian aid  they go in because they see some advantage for themselves.   and when I say they- I do mean corporate America  whether it for oils reserves access at a cheaper price , other natural resources or  cheap labour forces and inorder to achieve they dictate how those countries must be run inorder to be able to either take advantage of the resource or set up their own corporations there. 
Most other countries view the US as the classroom bully who beats up the weak kids to steal their lunch money,   the reason they have this view is because time and time again they see the US refusing to get involved in 3rd world  aid  unless  it provides some benefit to the US  and when it does they go in with heavy handed tactics and basically take control of the government there.   therefore most other first world countries have lost respect for the US and in some cases hate the US  because of what they see them doing in other countries  







EPGAH -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 4:02:08 PM)

America gave the oilfields back to the Iraquis...Even though Bush "promised" [:D] that Iraqui Oil would pay for this war, NOT the taxpayers...
As to taking control, would you give money to some bum, without taking SOME control over its life, directing it to get a shower and a job?
I still see little to no benefits from--nor in--many of the countries America pays foreign aid to...and you have to ask where the money goes...?[;)]



Maya2001 -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 5:17:32 PM)

Really????? Did you ever notice that  US citizens pays the lowest price for gas compare to the rest of the world, how do you think that was achieved?    What car do you drive???? Probably American made OOOPs  I mean assembled!   where did the parts come from?, you sure it was not some place the US invaded so they could put US owned factories there inorder to have a cheap labor force ???  Was it really made in the US though considered an American vehicle???,  Heck was it made with sheet steel from Russia??? Was child labor in the phillipines used to form to wire harnesses ???? so you could purchase it for $5K or 10K  less   than if manufactured here,
Just because you do not see the actual $ flowing does not mean you are not  benefiting



thompsonx -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 5:31:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And just who told these corporations that we "need" all this cheap, imported, plastic junk anyway?
I get along fine without it.
Sometimes I think people must need another room in their houses to store all that crap.
When business makes our laws, Houston, we have a problem.

popeye:
All you gotta do is look around at all the "public storage facilities" that rent you space to put crap you don't want or need.
thompson



EPGAH -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 5:48:38 PM)

Well, let's assume our EVIL American money wasn't going to factories provided by their country and apparently accepted by their "culture"...Would they turn to prostitution or drug-dealing instead?
It's cheaper to live there than here, no matter what country you choose as your "there", but that means prices are lower for LABOR as well. They could strike and the corporations would simply move their factories to some country where the people DID want to work (That sounds startlingly similar to the rationalization for outsourcing in the first place![;)]) And what's going to stop them, once they get "enough" money (Enough money is a fictional concept that noone believes in anymore) from American businesses, from demanding a raise?
Indeed, even in America, illegals(!) are starting to sue the corporations that hired them for back wages. This phenomenon of double-perversion of the law (Illegals who aren't supposed to be here in the first place vs. the companies that KNOWINGLY hired them) has been reported by a publication no less prestigious than Forbes!
Such a battle of evils makes it VERY hard to determine who to root for! On the one side, you have illegals. Noone FORCED them to come here at gunpoint--indeed, we have gun-wielding Agents who are supposed to catch them and send them BACK! Their greed and impatience were the only things that drew them to our side of the border illegally: They couldn't wait for more factories to move down to Mexico, and waiting in line to immigrate LEGALLY is for chumps, right? They refused to learn our language and couldn't get a real job, because they didn't really exist! So they found a company with "lax" policies regarding such technicalities as a potential employee's LEGAL stay in America vs. just being an international burglar. They accepted pay under the table, and since the payment didn't really happen, payment to SoSec and FICA and all the other "paycheck deductions" are strictly optional. They packed in 40 to a building, WELL over the occupancy limit and breaking "light residential" zoning, but more importantly, cheating America out of property-taxes to fuel the educational system that their spawn take advantage of (More like rape, than actually use, or pay attention in class, or heaven forfend, LEARN! Great place to gather as a gang before shooting up (their veins or a building), or just spraying a building (Paint or lead?))
On the other side, you have companies who didn't "feel" like paying Americans for their time and effort, and thought it might be a good idea to undermine American laws by hiring criminals--not ex-cons professing to be "reformed" and looking for a second chance, but rather scum who had no regard for our laws to begin with! They paid them MUCH cheaper than Americans, because the illegals CAN'T protest...or at least so we thought ("Drawing attention" is SUPPOSED to scare criminals, right? So the marches of scum in the street under enemy flags shouting anti-American slogans, and demanding "justice" was quite a surprise. The second time, though, Chicago had the presence of mind to round up and incarcerate the lot of them! Surprise back![:D]) These companies DID "exploit" the scum and their (self-imposed, but everyone forgets that part) "plight", but still gave them American money that they could pump back to Mexico, and may or may not have "forgotten" to withhold portions of the meager payments to the illegal scum for such minor things as America's Social Security system (Which is going bankrupt at an ever-increasing rate), and looked the other way about such technicalities as whether they had broken into America or come in the front door (The Golden Door, to use the Statue of Liberty poem!) Now suddenly, these scum are ungrateful enough to demand not only a raise, but want the back-wages they WOULD have collected if ONLY they'd come in legally! This violates both letter and spirit of the illicit bargain struck by immoral company and illegal scum! (After all, noone cares if it violates the letter/spirit of the law![;)])
And yes, those who hire foreign or illegal CAN undercut their law-abiding competition by a hefty percentage, which forces the LEGAL companies to hire illegals too, or go under...Cheaters always prosper, you know?
Now the bill is coming due...Regardless who wins, the trust between lawbreaking foreigns and lawbreaking companies will forever be shaken...Boohoo![:(]



thompsonx -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 5:50:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi again defiantbadgirl

I think there are some jobs that need temporary migrate workers. There are not enough people say in Imperial Valley to pick cauliflower or strawberries… or cotton in S. Caroline or peanuts in Georgia. Those jobs are only needed for a short time so employers could not carry them all year. The crops would rot in the field without them.

These employees could come into the US with valid work permits for migrate work that Americans would not want.

I would like to see these people receive minimum wage… I’d pay a few cents more for an apple.

But other than that I agree with you

Butch

Butch:
Why is it that American citizens could not fill the jobs that are now taken by illegal immigrants?
I think the obvious reason is that the pay is too low.  If we were to do as you say(and I agree completely but would go even farther.  I would have the government confiscate their property both personal and business as proceeds from an illegal enterprise) and start locking up those who make the money off of this slavery then we might start making some progress.  When every American citizen who wants a job has one then we can consider importing contract labor.
The two edged sword of draconian punishment and a living wage would make it impossible for an illegal alien to get a job pushing a broom or anything else in our country.  Make the minimum wage $15 an hour and you wont have any problem finding American citizens to pick lettuce or beans or anything else.  As long as it pays five bux an hour there will be no shortage of illegals who will work for slave wages.
thompson



EPGAH -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 6:16:23 PM)

Wow, that sounds a lot like what I had said on another thread...I thought we were on opposite "sides", thompson! I fully support asset-seizure and MASSIVE deportation of the criminals...
BUT other than the means I mentioned that you implied were either unreliable and/or racist, how can you prove someone is NOT a citizen? [;)]
Let's say someone sneaks into this country, and manages by money-induced hypnosis (Or by living next to an Anglophone country for 159 years), to learn English, stays away from crime, doesn't drive or try to forge any ID papers...How can you prove he's NOT a citizen?



kdsub -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 6:39:16 PM)

Thompson

I think the reason migrate workers are needed is not that Americans won’t do it …but because these are very short term jobs… most American workers would want a full time job. Crops come in often at the same time so you could not travel from one harvest to the other year around… And who would want to move their families every few weeks anyway.

The migrate worker system has worked for years…they have even organized and are receiving at least decent wages. The real problem is replacing full time American workers with illegal, or legal for that matter, aliens just to make a few more dollars.

I have no animosity toward these alien workers…after all they are just trying to improve the situation in life… but I don’t want them doing it by lowering mine.
Butch



EPGAH -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 7:22:06 PM)

They don't want to lower your quality-of-life--they just don't care about any quality-of-life except their own...They would feel more comfortable in their own culture, especially their own language, so they're going about "forcing" America to switch to Spanish, and they feel America isn't overcrowded yet, so they're trying their best to fix that...If it bankrupts our schools and hospitals, that's the Americans' fault! [;)]
Read up on Cesar Chavez, an old hero of the Mexican migrant workers, who started their organization into a proto-union...BUT he realized somehow that more illegals meant less wages, so he had some of his followers throw the illegals back--his men were working WITH the prototype Border Patrol, instead of covering for their fellow Mexicans! Quite a shock, really!



awmslave -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 7:42:41 PM)

The "remote labor system" (masquerading behind "trade" rethoric) is dead end policy. This is just a common sense. The way to end it would be through toll system and taxation. I do not see how does it cost jobs. If done correctly it would create jobs. The problem is US government being kept hostage to corporate short-term interest. The problem crosses party lines W. Clinton was the worst outsourcerer. All democratic 2008 president candidates are strong supporters of illegal immigration. The last is treated like a basic human right.



thompsonx -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 7:44:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Thompson

I think the reason migrate workers are needed is not that Americans won’t do it …but because these are very short term jobs… most American workers would want a full time job
This just is not true.  American citizens used to do these jobs but when agra-business found they could get slave labor from across the boarder they shunned Americans citizens because they would not work for slave wages.  Look at the efforts that agra-business expended in trying to stop Ceasar Chavez and the UFW.  Farming is a full time occupation picking is seasonal in some areas but here in California it is year round employment.  The same is true through out the south west.
 

Crops come in often at the same time so you could not travel from one harvest to the other year around… And who would want to move their families every few weeks anyway.
Obviously there are plenty who do because the crops get harvested...now if we raised the pay and imposed serious sanctions (RICO)on employers then it would happen for American citizens.

The migrate worker system has worked for years…they have even organized and are receiving at least decent wages. The real problem is replacing full time American workers with illegal, or legal for that matter, aliens just to make a few more dollars.
Obviously you have never picked lettuce or tomatoes for the same wages as an illegal alien.

I have no animosity toward these alien workers…after all they are just trying to improve the situation in life… but I don’t want them doing it by lowering mine.
Actually they take less from the system than they put in contrary to what EPGAH  would have you believe.
Butch



EPGAH -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 8:16:36 PM)

It's profitable to let the illegals in, but we've had 7 amnesties before, and just as people said, rewarding such criminals made them bolder, they demanded a big raise, and abruptly found themselves alongside REAL Americans in the unemployment line...a new crop of illegals was brought in!
The availability of illegals removes incentive to either hire Americans OR to mechanize!
I feel no sympathy for the illegals, they CHOOSE to come to America, rather than work "back home"...Our liberal outsourcing would eventually bring our jobs there...wherever "there" was!
As to them taking more or less from the system than they put in, do you just mean financial, or the social costs, the trashing of neighborhoods, the increased crime...those are costs too. And if you need a reminder, just dial your phone-company. Allegedly, they can track you in 30 seconds down to the very building you're in...So in the few seconds it takes you to dial, they can at LEAST narrow it down to nation: USA. We speak English here...so why the "Press 2 for Spanish"? And if we want to make foreigns feel at home, why not the langauage of a nation that gives US something: Chinese, Japanese?
Also, try going to a Home Depot, you'll bombarded with invaders asking for a job...some fairly aggressively...And once you get in, you'll notice subtitles in Spanish on all major goods...What, they're so stupid and/or arrogant, they won't buy unless it's in their language?
Well, Home Depot is probably a foregone conclusion: Illegals in the construction business is a cliche...Go to Wal-Mart instead...Almost all food items have Spanish subtitles...They'll starve if they don't get food in their language? Which would be a good way to make them feel unwelcome...Oddly, cleaning-products--a staple of the "Jobs Americans Won't Do"(TM), are printed solely in English...maybe those are so simple that even a Mexican can understand them without reading?
Let's continue on to Best Buy...Bastion of high-tech, technology is the last bastion of the educated, etc...But even HERE, Spanish subtitles! What would an illegal, who ONLY wants to work (yeah, that's a good one![;)]), need with a 51" flatscreen TV? The educational shelves are stocked with plenty of texts, CDs, even computer-programs on learning Spanish...Try as I might, I can't find one that would teach an illegal how to speak English !
On the way out, a shoplifter--who looks suspiciously Hispanic and can't speak English, trips the alarm (Who knew those things were anything more than a waste of plastic?) As he flees the American-looking security guards, an anonymous American trips HIM instead! His super-dense Mexican skull bounces off the frame of the automatic door, and the Handsome Stranger disappears!
On the way home, the radio says the illegals are going to mount ANOTHER protest in our streets. That's right, boys, you haven't pissed off the Americans enough...Do it again, and see if our famous American restraint still applies?



thompsonx -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 8:40:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Wow, that sounds a lot like what I had said on another thread...I thought we were on opposite "sides", thompson! I fully support asset-seizure and MASSIVE deportation of the criminals...
Had you bothered to read any of my posts you would have noticed it...I have said it long loud and again...long before you ever came to cm.


BUT other than the means I mentioned that you implied were either unreliable and/or racist, how can you prove someone is NOT a citizen? [;)]
Let's say someone sneaks into this country, and manages by money-induced hypnosis (Or by living next to an Anglophone country for 159 years), to learn English, stays away from crime, doesn't drive or try to forge any ID papers...How can you prove he's NOT a citizen?
I believe I have asked you this question several times.  It is my position that it is virtually impossible for the average citizen to prove he or she is a U.S. citizen.
Because of security clearances I held while I was in the military I can prove my citizenship but then I am an anomaly.




EPGAH -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 8:52:04 PM)

Well, my father held security clearances in the Air Force, so that proves HE's an American...and since I'm his son, I get that birthright American citizenship, right?
Still, why/how are you making this about me?
It's supposed to be about the way we will slowly wither and die when we cutoff the foreign parasites...Wait, isn't losing parasites a GOOD thing?



farglebargle -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 9:00:21 PM)

Your claims are meaningless. All illegal aliens lie about their status. Where are Your Papers?

And if Your Papers ARE NOT IN ORDER, ( Or the Fucking Pig doesn't like the bumper stickers on your car, or perhaps your yarmulke ) you will have to be detained until the issue can be cleared up.

Slippery Slope indeed.



kdsub -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 9:08:38 PM)

From a long line of farmers…. Imagine that….lol…. There was no way we could get enough local labor at picking time. I’m 60 and as long as I can remember we had migrate workers… They were all hard working industrious people… We did not pay much… but neither did we make much… but we lived and raised families… so did they… it worked well. By the way I picked for nothing… but I’ll admit I was out of there as soon as I could. I don’t know about everywhere but there were never enough local hands and backs.

Where I live now may not be representative of the nation as a hole but we have many Bosnian, Vietnamese, and Mexicans immigrant or illegal workers in my area. There or no longer any landscape…roofing…janitorial…construction labors…restaurant worker jobs available to name a very few of the jobs lost.  We now have local boys and girls that used to fill those positions either un-employed or at low wage service jobs like fast-food.

Unions workers are loosing jobs left and right. Employers now refuse to pay medical insurance… or contribute to pension plans… or employee full time. Kids now must work two part time jobs just to live.

My local Wal-Mart and Target employees more Mexican workers then people from the surrounding neighborhoods and our town is more than 1500 miles from Mexico.

At least in my part of the world illegal workers are taking local employment and forcing low wages… It has to stop or there will be a massive backlash… I don’t want that.

Butch 



EPGAH -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 9:24:12 PM)

The backlash is already starting, it's just weak, because Americans have jobs&other responsibilities, we can't afford to quit our jobs, and hold a "Day Without Legals"...Most of us would get fired on the spot, and possibly replaced with the very scum we're protesting!
We're also not organized and we don't have a big advocacy organization (I do NOT count "White Power" or KKK as White Advocacy groups, THEY are truly xenocidal; the majority of Americans simply want the foreigns to come in the RIGHT way or get the hell out, and/or stop stealing from us!
Because of the effect of illegals on our wages, Americans are now poorer with BOTH parents and at least ONE child working, than we used to be with the stereotypical "1950's household": Man earns the money, woman takes care of the house and kids--and both get flamed by all the feminist organizations![:D]
Heck, some stores' employees don't understand ENGLISH, which should be a red-flag to their employers...but you can't block'em, that would be discriminatory! [;)]
Or the way they've had to dumb-down schools so the illegals could make some semblance of keeping up...Things I learned in fifth grade are now EIGHTH-GRADE material! And then there's the DREAM Act: Amnesty AND in-state tuition for someone who's not even FROM the States! It doesn't even check for age, so if it passes, Americans will have to compete with illegals for college-slots, too! The "Jobs Americans Won't Do" barely need a brain, much less a college education! What game are they playing here?
Yes, I realize that might give them a stake in America--like right through the heart, perhaps? If we truly wanted to prevent illegals from taking our money and sending it "home" to an enemy country, we could um, keep the thieves out of our country?



farglebargle -> RE: Bush; "Protectionism will cost U.S. jobs." (10/17/2007 9:29:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

The backlash is already starting, it's just weak, because Americans have jobs&other responsibilities, we can't afford to quit our jobs, and hold a "Day Without Legals"...Most of us would get fired on the spot, and possibly replaced with the very scum we're protesting!


You know, if you were in a Union, and the Average Union wasn't as culpable as The Boss Class, you might actually be able to organize effectively enough to protest in exactly that manner.

quote:


We're also not organized and we don't have a big advocacy organization


Damnit... What do they call those things??? Oh yeah! Unions.

quote:


(I do NOT count "White Power" or KKK as White Advocacy groups, THEY are truly xenocidal; the majority of Americans simply want the foreigns to come in the RIGHT way or get the hell out, and/or stop stealing from us!


So you have no problem with LEGAL residents stealing from you?

quote:


Because of the effect of illegals on our wages, Americans are now poorer with BOTH parents and at least ONE child working, than we used to be with the stereotypical "1950's household": Man earns the money, woman takes care of the house and kids--and both get flamed by all the feminist organizations![:D]


Well, again, your problem isn't with the Free Laborers. It's with the Boss Class.

You *DO* realize that The Bosses are using your angst against you? I wonder what would happen if you actually got together with "The Other Side" to combat your true foe?





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