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ORIGINAL: Maya2001

The real government is not the party leaders like Bush or Clinton they are only the mouth pieces , the real decision makers and rapists of the country are the big corporate giants

That became obvious to me when General Motors got caught with the Canadian government try to push through  policies here, luckily what they were trying to do was leaked to the unions including copies of what they were agreeing to , so once they knew they got caught red handed they backed off, Who has the most to benefit from deals such as NAFTA ?? It allows the big manufacturing corporations to take the work out of the country have parts of the product made elsewhere and ship it back into the US without the added costs of  tarriffs.  The big corps have little regard for the employees or communities they sent up in,  all they care about is maximizing profits , when the dollar fell in Canada and with the cheaper medical costs The Big # automakers moved a lot of operations from Michigan to Ontario leaving in their wake mass unemployment and devalued housing as not only the workers were affected but also other businesses were hit hard since the workers no longer had money to spend turning once thriving communities into ghost towns.  the same now is happening here as they look for cheaper places to produce or they attack the workers trying to force unbelievable major concessions that would leave many worker facing bankruptcy if they accept the terms offered, the other tactics included replacing retiring workers with temp agency workers that are earning far less than the worker they stand beside with the bitterness the quality of the vehicles suffer, is it necessary for the big 3 autoworkers to take major concessions ????    I do not believe so, as I watch the Toyota workers earning more and recieving even larger benefits and yet they are thriving  within the same geopgraphical areas, but the big difference I see is how top heavy GM plants have become in the last 12 years I have watch the workforce decline while management nearly doubled in the same period leaveing them carrying a lot of dead weight that does nothing in terms of earning profit, I would much rather see a robot installed over 5 more salaried staff walking around with their hands in their pockets at least the robot aids in production and earning profit, with the way they are running their plants I sure as heck have no interest in having them running  the country

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Unless Americans turn their back on capitalism what can Americans have to complain about?  What Americans are seeing is capitalism at work. What is coming to an end and what is effecting America is its decline as an imperial power. The European powers went through a similar decline in their imperail power and had to adjust to the world they found themselves in, a world where they had to make compromises with people they used to exploit.

Capitalism isn't the problem, and England is still a huge advocate of liberal trade (regardless of empire); one of the stumbling blocks of the EU is the French desire to subsidise and the English desire to liberalise. There's nothing inherently flawed in the principle of organising people for production and encouraging investment and return; the opportunity to prosper stimulates ideas and knowledge.

Elitism is the problem. There were haves and have nots long before the union of fire and water, to the extent that a peasant's life was a mere subsistence. An argument suggesting that people, say the people of England, are worse off today in comparison to 400 years ago...well, I can't accept that. 400 years ago, I would have been one of those peasants working morning 'til night in exchange for a bed/floor: I know the era in which I'd rather live; living to work and praying to god for salvation ain't my idea of life.

I don't think we're that civilised and the human race has a long way to go down that path; we're yet to work out how best to organise ourselves so that elitism, whether that be in the form of Kings, Corporations or Government, doesn't take root.

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Unless Americans turn their back on capitalism what can Americans have to complain about? What Americans are seeing is capitalism at work. What is coming to an end and what is effecting America is its decline as an imperial power. The European powers went through a similar decline in their imperail power and had to adjust to the world they found themselves in, a world where they had to make compromises with people they used to exploit.

It's UNREGULATED and UNRESTRAINED Artificial Legal Entities, not "Capitalism" per-se which is objectionable.

I have NO PROBLEM with Sam Walton doing whatever HE chooses to do. I have a BIG PROBLEM when Wal-Mart forgets that they are The People's Bitches and start getting uppity.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Such complaints are the complaints of bosses who are no longer bosses.

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ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

The problem with you, MeatCleaver, is you pretend to be above it all. You refuse to claim a home country. Can there really be a man of the world? Or do you just lack a sense of home and community? Your attitude is a little tedious sometimes...

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ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Excuse me, when did it become "evil" to defend one's home from the encroachment of those who seek to suck you dry?

Since America sucked people dry in their own country? (The Europeans were before America I admit but since you're American saying America makes more of a point.)

Survival-horror movies aside, foreigns DO come to your country "for a better life"--for THEMSELVES, and they don't care what happens to the locals, and to quality of life. Oddly, even though the "culture" they are fleeing FROM is what CAUSED their problem, they seek to reestablish that same culture in "their new home". Have you ever seen an American road clogged by goats and CHICKENS? I hope you don't have to; America has zoning laws that say where farm animals are allowed, and residential zones, for the most part, don't allow them (And if they're "pets"--stranger pets have happened--there ARE leash-laws that they conveniently ignore, much as they ignore the laws regulating who is or isn't allowed in America!)

What has this got to do with the price of onions?

Large tracts of America are now flooded with illegals, and if you go to those areas, you'll think that the border crossed you.

Yep. Aren't they European-Americans that ethnically cleansed the Native Americans?

Run-down buildings, graffiti, gun-wielding thugs...Oh, and American language doesn't apply there any more than our laws. You might say the invaders have successfully "conquered" those areas, yet still make demands on the infrastructure of America. There is some noise about how they're only here to do "The Jobs Americans Won't Do"(TM), butr if that is true, why are stores from Best Buy to Wal-Mart suddenly subtitling their merchandise for the (mostly Spanish-speaking, apparently) invaders?

If so, why are they suddenly "requesting" Americans to fund the education of their massive broods, and now bills are even being introduced that will make college cheaper FOR ILLEGALS!

Actually educating illegals in your midst is no bad thing for your economy but you sound too short sighted to see that.

While I agree these people are great citizens, they are not great AMERICAN citizens, their loyalty still lies "back home"--the countries they invaded from!

5th generation Americans call themselves or are called Irish-American, Italian-American, Hispanic, Latinos, Polaks, African-American etc etc. so it is hardly something new to America, immigrants showing a romantic allegiance to their heritage.

Many have announced plans to wait until they accumulate "enough" money, or until their children are done with school (Thanks, suckers--er--taxpayers!), then return "home" and live off the money they "earned" in America!

Diplomatic missions spend millions to win the hearts of minds of foreigners and intreoduce them to their own culture so these people would have been drowned in American culture, see it as an investment.

And when they speak "in their language", will they offer to translate at no cost for the convenience of those footing their bills? (The taxpayers)? Oddly, they don't! If they want our money, our goods, and our jobs, it is incumbent on THEM to learn OUR language!

If you didn't translate everything then they would have to learn English so whose fault is that?

In a related note, workers in "competing" countries wouldn't be so cheap, if they aspired to the American level of comfort, or even had a few environmental/safety regulations.

Get real. Everyone is aspiring to developed world comforts, that is why America and Europe has so many illegals.

Prices would go up still further if these invaders had to pay the same fees and taxes that Americans do! Make the "exploiters" pay the TRUE costs of this "cheap" labor, starting with the costs the American taxpayers shoulder for the incubation, education, medication, and ultimately incarceration, of the illegal scum that companies with a "lax employment-enforcement policy" draw to America!

Companies are outsourcing because American and European labour is too expensive and American and European consumers want the lowest prices for their money. Americans and Europeans who want high paid jobs and low priced products (I bet your one) are suffering from cognitive dissonance.
 
cognitive dissonance  
n.   Psychology
A condition of conflict or anxiety resulting from inconsistency between one's beliefs and one's actions

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I don't remember Americans complaining about unfettered capitalism when unfettered American capitalism had America in the ascendency which is why complaints from Americans about unfettered capitalism ring so hollow.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Large tracts of America are now flooded with illegals, and if you go to those areas, you'll think that the border crossed you.
Yep. Aren't they European-Americans that ethnically cleansed the Native Americans?
Well, you might be correct, actually, but I SEVERELY doubt you're willing to give up all the benefits we European-descendants provided...From running water and indoor plumbing to electricity, telephones, computers, and the Internet. If you DID, of course, you wouldn't have a way to tell me, and I'd never know I was right. Would you accept that as your moral victory?
On a more realistic note, Americans bring MONEY, knowhow, and technologies, ESPECIALLY medical, which foreign countries greedily take all they can get. Hell, in India, you can buy and sell souls for a WORKING air-conditioner! (And some might say our medical technologies have caused some of this illegal-immigration, since otherwise, their excesses would have DIED, rather than building up until they needed someplace less overpopulated to stow their excess people. Or our technology outstripped their morality: Life-SAVING technologies are lapped up greedily, while birth-control is a subtle conspiracy by Americans to induce xenocide...?)
That ludicrous conspiracy-theory accepted as "truth", such a "subtle" people could never have ethnically-cleansed our country of violent savages, the war would still be going on now....I'm willing to bet noone alive today was a participant in the dirty deeds of either side (Medical technology isn't THAT advanced, and certainly wasn't back then!)
Third-worlders invade First World nations WITHOUT bringing any benficial gifts for their hosts (Disease, violent crime, and overpopulation are generally NOT considered beneficial, except by the most fanatical Darwinians! These "Darwininans" would, of course, be the first to whine when any foreigner dies of a preventable disease...Maybe even make TV commercials about it!)

If you want to bring up past misdeeds, America may have made a mistake in allowing Mexico to keep ANY territory, given what they've done with it...and what they've done with American territory they've occupied (Visit California, or southern Arizona and/or Texas...I wouldn't want you to accept my word for it!) And since they're claiming that agreements made under duress aren't binding (Odd how they don't mention that when they're robbing our banks or convenience-stores), then the 1848 Guadalupe Hidalgo treaty and/or the 1850's Gadsen Purchase are null and void; we are still at war with Mexico, right? Odd how THAT never enters their thought-processes! If Americans ever realized that we were still at war with Mexico, the nation would very quickly purge itself of all of them, and since "in times of war, the law is silent" (except, of course, when American soldiers kill the enemies), a LOT of "legal" immigrants would be "cleansed" alongside their illegal brethren!

Run-down buildings, graffiti, gun-wielding thugs...Oh, and American language doesn't apply there any more than our laws. You might say the invaders have successfully "conquered" those areas, yet still make demands on the infrastructure of America. There is some noise about how they're only here to do "The Jobs Americans Won't Do"(TM), butr if that is true, why are stores from Best Buy to Wal-Mart suddenly subtitling their merchandise for the (mostly Spanish-speaking, apparently) invaders?
If so, why are they suddenly "requesting" Americans to fund the education of their massive broods, and now bills are even being introduced that will make college cheaper FOR ILLEGALS!
Actually educating illegals in your midst is no bad thing for your economy but you sound too short sighted to see that.
How would it be a good thing? It gives invaders upward mobility while they retain an "independent" culture inimical to ours--although I bet they are addicted to our technology (See above)

While I agree these people are great citizens, they are not great AMERICAN citizens, their loyalty still lies "back home"--the countries they invaded from!
5th generation Americans call themselves or are called Irish-American, Italian-American, Hispanic, Latinos, Polaks, African-American etc etc. so it is hardly something new to America, immigrants showing a romantic allegiance to their heritage.
That's true, but most of them have, through great effort or dark magic, learned English, and most don't send money out of America anymore--well, at least not directly, the indirect part is what you referred to below, America buys cheap goods from abroad...and probably the men too! (Rimshot!)

Many have announced plans to wait until they accumulate "enough" money, or until their children are done with school (Thanks, suckers--er--taxpayers!), then return "home" and live off the money they "earned" in America!
Diplomatic missions spend millions to win the hearts of minds of foreigners and intreoduce them to their own culture so these people would have been drowned in American culture, see it as an investment.
It IS an investment: An investment in bringing more illegals here to sponge off what they can and leave when they've stolen "enough" (Why don't they steal from their own, like say, Carlos Slim, Mexico's Anti-America Millionaire?) Others will see them living high off their ill-gotten gains and realize that robbing the First World for fun and profit has no negative consequences--yet--which will incite the next wave to do the same. Or they might stay and corrupt a certain area of America. Unlike the previous dealings with technologically-inferior enemies, we seem to be yielding whatever territory they occupy, rather than allocating areas for them to occupy. Yet even the occupiers want to keep draining off our resources and infrastructure...Raising taxes/prices for all legitimate consumers--er--citizens!

And when they speak "in their language", will they offer to translate at no cost for the convenience of those footing their bills? (The taxpayers)? Oddly, they don't! If they want our money, our goods, and our jobs, it is incumbent on THEM to learn OUR language!
If you didn't translate everything then they would have to learn English so whose fault is that?
Actually, the translation bit was Clinton's last order as he was leaving office...On another thread, they talk about scorched earth, and I think that was his objective, make as big a mess as possible for Bush II, although rather than fix it, I would have to say Bush II has tried to make it WORSE...Introducing a failed amnesty bill--TWICE--Not utterly CRUSHING the DREAM Act, and not repealing Clinton's "Americans must translate for free" nonsense. Ah, it's not his money, why should he care?

In a related note, workers in "competing" countries wouldn't be so cheap, if they aspired to the American level of comfort, or even had a few environmental/safety regulations.
Get real. Everyone is aspiring to developed world comforts, that is why America and Europe has so many illegals.
That's right, they aspire to it, but rather than reform and develop their own country, they can steal from us--all the while telling us America is the devil. Maybe we are. If so, I invite all third-worlders and all First Worlders whose "white guilt" overrides their common-sense, to please relinquish all First World techno-comforts, so you may be pure and unconflicted in your badgering of Americans who accept progress.

Prices would go up still further if these invaders had to pay the same fees and taxes that Americans do! Make the "exploiters" pay the TRUE costs of this "cheap" labor, starting with the costs the American taxpayers shoulder for the incubation, education, medication, and ultimately incarceration, of the illegal scum that companies with a "lax employment-enforcement policy" draw to America!
Companies are outsourcing because American and European labour is too expensive and American and European consumers want the lowest prices for their money. Americans and Europeans who want high paid jobs and low priced products (I bet your one) are suffering from cognitive dissonance.
Prices are going up still further because Americans DO have to pay for all the extra leeches and their social and medical costs. Illegal labor was supposed to bring cheap food, but food prices have more than doubled (And more than QUADRUPLED in some parts)...when, exactly, are these "cheap prices" going to kick in? And yet the illegals blackmail us collectively, that if we kick their parasitic asses out (Or just kick their asses), we'll lose the "cheap" prices we currently enjoy. Also, more people in a nation means higher demand for all goods IN that nation. Let's take, as purely random examples, food, water and gasoline. As more people pour into America, with or without our permission, these goods do NOT increase in number, in fact, you might say fossil fuels are permanently DEcreasing! Therefore, since the demand RISES, so will prices. If we truly want things cheap, we must limit the number of people in America, which will automatically limit our consumption!
Or if you insist on snidely believing America keeps the best for itself, as some sort of global "country club", then wouldn't it be better to have fewer of us "greedy bastards" sucking the world dry faster?

cognitive dissonance  
n.   Psychology
A condition of conflict or anxiety resulting from inconsistency between one's beliefs and one's actions
Yes, I believe many foreigns have that problem:  They hate America and our March of Progress that dooms us all, yet they want what we've got...but they don't want to give up their "culture"--which is precisely what's ruining most of their countries!
Which is it, do they want their "heritage", including the corruption and starvation their "culture" causes, (Which they inevitably claim to be fleeing) or our technology and comforts?
Or as was mentioned in another thread, X as an ethnicity is meaningless unless linked to its cultural baggage.

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Well, you might be correct, actually, but I SEVERELY doubt you're willing to give up all the benefits we European-descendants provided...From running water and indoor plumbing to electricity, telephones, computers, and the Internet.

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ORIGINAL: EPGAH

If I didn't misunderstand, he's trying to say that the European descendants wiped out the American Indians with malice aforethought...More like they found a "vast" abandoned land and tried to civilize it. They bought a lot of the land, because the Indians thought the Americans were crazy, "You can't OWN land" kind of thing...But that didn't stop them from taking the Americans' money and goods (History doesn't record if they ran after taking the money, but let's assume they did, to keep the cliche intact!) The Indians come back to find the land they accepted money and goods for having been settled, civilized, small churches built up, and towns centered around them. They want to hunt in someone's backyard...Even nowadays, many property-owners take offense to hunters in their backyard, safety issues and all that. However, back then, there was the additional idea that if someone showed up in your backyard with a weapon, they intended to do harm to you, your children, or at least your buildings. Only banks, airports, and a few other places have this level of (institutionalized paranoia/common sense) nowadays...
So the settlers had to defend their newly-bought land...Americans died, Indians died, Americans asked Britain for professional soldiers to defend their borders, and Britain replied, "Don't extend beyond a certain line, we can't defend you"...Britain felt their new money-machines--I mean colonies--were worth restricting, but not protecting (Although it DID start a bad precedent of America having poorly-defended borders, which less-civilized people could cross and raid at any time)

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ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Myself, I am in favor of castration of all deportees, whether with a sterile environment, and sterilized scalpel, and disposable latex gloves, or just a heated metal bar on the spot of capture (MUCH cheaper, and no wasted latex for our Third Worlder critics to point at as PROOF of America's wastefulness!)

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ORIGINAL: philosophy
....generally speaking i try to understand where someone is coming from. i try to understand why people feel the way they do. i read your posts carefully until i got to the above quote. At that point i'm afraid you lost me. i can understand those Americans who feel that their borders need to be defended, i can not understand Americans who feel that other races and people have to be treated as sub-human.

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ORIGINAL: EPGAH

As to your claims, meatcleaver, yes, I did indeed mean the Proclamation Line. Imagine calling the police for protection from savages trying to rape your wife and daughters and kill your sons and livestock (Or is that kill your wife and daughters and rape your sons and livestock? I forget...), the cops arrive, and hold YOU at bay, and wink and nod to the savages ruining your life's work, if not your life? You pay for protection and you get restriction instead...Somehow, I doubt that would sit well with you. However much sellers' remorse the Indians had is NOT a reason to get violent!