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RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/18/2007 2:11:41 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarineLooking

I've been to Iraq, I'm a Marine.  I'm headed back there soon.  I'm sorry we didn't finish what we started back in First Gulf War and tak Saddam out of power.  I'm perfectly healthy.  At least you'll get to sit back and saw whatever you want about the government.  I've been in the cities and I've talk to the Iraqi people.  The reasons we claimed to start the war maybe not have been right but going in was the right thing.  Those Iraqi's no longer have to fear the Iraqi police.  They now have freedoms they didn't have.  I'm not saying we are perfect but at least we are trying to make a better place out of it.  Look at third world countries and look at what they do to their own people.  Africa still has land mine and genocide.  Come one, at least you live in a country that you don't have to worry about that.  And those who do protect the country, don't fight for you'll.  We fight to keep the guy next to us and ourselfs alive.  And in doing that, you'll and I have the chance to free discuss our opinions without fear.


Hey Marine! Good job!
But, we need you guys on that Mexican border not on Iraq's borders.
It's time for "Operation America Freedom."

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to MarineLooking)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/18/2007 3:16:49 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

False premises Farg. Bush doesn't rule Iraq. I do not accept your definition that if a paid agent comes into Iraq and blows a water main, it was done by the USA.


When the Air Farce ( they stop raping their girl cadets at the Academy yet? ) drops a bomb on a treatment plant, that WAS MOST CERTAINLY done by the USA.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/18/2007 6:11:56 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
Farg not even you can be ignorant enough to think that all of Iraq was serviced by one treatment plant.  I am glad you honestly show your contempt for the services.  Yep if they put an anti Aircraft battery on a water treatment plant, it becomes a target, same with schools and hospitals.  The fact is that people keep blowing them up, they have all been repaired or installed where there were none in the first place, yet they keep getting blown up, not by the USA.  It's almost as if there are forces desperate enough to prevent an elected gov from taking over in Iraq they will kill and cause suffering among millions of Iraqis.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/19/2007 1:04:43 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
You just keep reaching for those rainbows! Yeah! The USA rebuilt ALL the infrastructure intentionally targeted. That's why the lights are on all night! NONE of the money allocated to rebuild was stolen. Nope.

Yeah. They hate "An Elected Gov't"... You act like Hussein wasn't elected himself, in perhaps the MOST PROGRESSIVE nation in the middle east at the time. If the election wasn't a rigged joke putting in a certified panel of US Puppets, why don't the Iraqis support the government?

Are Iraqi "Elections" as meaningless and pointless as US "Elections"?

But it looks like they like Hussein's government well enough to NOT HAVE A REVOLUTION, in any event.

Hmm.. Why would they like Hussein's rule better than the US Puppet Regime? ( Which discounts the fragmentation which has already happened, rendering a strong Federal Republic a total and complete impossibility, and any discussion of one essentially masturbation... )

So, we're back, once again, to "Why are you pretending what happens in the Green Zone is in the least ways relevant?"

And yeah. Any military organization which would for a moment conceal the rape of their own cadets, and NOT HANG THE RAPISTS, much less the lying pieces of shit who covered it up, doesn't deserve any respect. Neither does ANY ACADEMY GRADUATE. They should be ashamed of themselves for being part of such an unworthy organization, and resign. Their continued service is PROOF of their moral corruption.

But hey, if a piece of shit coward like Bush can become CiC, then anything is possible.


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 10/19/2007 1:12:00 AM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/19/2007 2:43:17 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
You just keep reaching for those rainbows! Yeah! The USA rebuilt ALL Did I say All? the infrastructure intentionally targeted. That's why the lights are on all night! NONE Did I ever say that? of the money allocated to rebuild was stolen. Nope.

Yeah. They hate "An Elected Gov't"... You act like Hussein wasn't elected himself correct he siezed power in a brutal coup, in perhaps the MOST PROGRESSIVE I guess excepting Egypt, Turkey, Dubai, UAE,Isreal,and Quatar nation in the middle east at the time. If the election wasn't a rigged joke putting in a certified panel of US Puppets, why don't the Iraqis support the government? The majority do

Are Iraqi "Elections" as meaningless and pointless as US "Elections"?  I suppose you consider so

But it looks like they like Hussein's government well enough to NOT HAVE A REVOLUTION, in any event.   they had several that were brutally put down with outside weoponry, most from the USSR

Hmm.. Why would they like Hussein's rule better than the US Puppet Regime? Because it is not a puppet regiem, and they did not vote to put a Sunni warlord back into power, and they did not write a Constitution based on a Sunni Dictator for life model.  ( Which discounts the fragmentation which has already happened, rendering a strong OF course all along the stated goal has been a weak federalized state with a high degree of local autonomy Federal Republic a total and complete impossibility, and any discussion of one essentially masturbation yes, that as so many of your points are nothing but... )

So, we're back, once again, to "Why are you pretending what happens in the Green Zone is in the least ways relevant?"Iti is relevant in many ways, yet you are the one bringing up this new topic.  start a thread on it and see if anyone bites

And yeah. Any military organization which would for a moment conceal the rape of their own cadets, and NOT HANG THE RAPISTS, much less the lying pieces of shit who covered it up, doesn't deserve any respect. Neither does ANY ACADEMY GRADUATE. They should be ashamed of themselves for being part of such an unworthy organization, and resign. Their continued service is PROOF of their moral corruption.  I am not much for collective punishment.  That you hate the Millitary is no surprise

But hey, if a piece of shit coward like Bush can become CiC, then anything is possible.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/19/2007 3:23:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
If it wasn't for western powers meddling in the politics of the middle east, if the western powers had been honest and not full of double dealing vipers out for themselves, the middle east would probably be relatively stable today.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/19/2007 6:08:05 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
For a non sensationalized independantly peer reviewed paper on the reality of DU try this one.

http://people.icess.ucsb.edu/academics/courses/595E/Session%207/BemEnv&HealthConseq.pdf

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/19/2007 7:42:17 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

False premises Farg.  Bush doesn't rule Iraq.  I do not accept your definition that if a paid agent comes into Iraq and blows a water main, it was done by the USA.  The terrorism has gone up greatly since the CPA gave authority to the Elected Iraqi Gov.  Pre invasion, some parts of Iraq had better services, and others had far worse.

I do understand you want to hijack this thread, and spout your rhetoric another time.  Start another thread if you want to compare services of various Iraqi regiems in the past 2 decades.


Of course it`s our responsibility.It was our personnel,our weapons and ammo, that blew up the treatment facilities,power grids,and pump houses.
To claims this in not our fault,is shirking responsibility.Certainly typical of the neo-conservative mindset.

Before this war and this incompetent president,The US had a policy of  "you break ,you bought it".(as Colin Powll put it.)In which ,if we invaded and destroyed a country,we had a responsibility to take care of the people there.We aren`t Russia,after all (yet).

Now ,with the neo-cons in charge,shirking responsibility is policy.There is a ,"What?That`s not my/our problem.",type attitude.Truly,it`s a policy that boarders on criminal  negligence.Kind of a ,"let`s blow it up and see what happens" type of thought process. Reckless,arrogant and counter productive.

Before the invasion,there were  maybe  7 to 10 cases(per year) of cholera in Iraq.Now there`s over 30,000.

To say that that`s not our doing,is a fantasy.But,that`s what we`ve got right now,..people in charge,who just couldn`t give a shit.

http://www.who.int/wer/2007/wer8241.pdf

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2003/msg03010.html

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/19/2007 9:27:43 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
Here are a few snippets from this cherry picked doc.

They basically are trying to shift the blame on to other areas.

The bottom line is that vets are not allowed to donate blood who were in these ares and that in itself says it all.


Military use of depleted uranium in the Gulf
During the Gulf War, DU ammunition was used by all
kinds of American forces. US Army fired (from tanks) about
500 large-calibre 105 mm and 9000–120 mm rounds, each
containing 4.2 and 5.3 kg of DU, respectively. Air forces
used almost 800,000—30 mm calibre shells, each bearing
0.28 kg of DU. Additionally, US Navy aircrafts fired about
67,500—25 mm DU bullets. Altogether, over 300 tons of
DU was used in this campaign. Therefore, the main part of
In the 30 mm DU bullets, an aluminium head of 30-mm
diameter surrounds the 95 mm long and 16 mm diameter
uranium penetrator. These rounds were fired from the
machine guns installed on A-10 ‘‘Warthog’’ aircrafts.
The firing rate of these guns reaches 3900 bullets per
minute. Usually 100 to 150 projectiles from a single 2–3 s
series covered the targets on the area of about 500 m2.
Depending on the type of target, only 10% of projectiles
hit their intended targets. The self-ignition of uranium did
not take place in the case of hitting of nonarmoured
vehicles, and the whole mass of DU could stay in the
environment. This implies that in the Kuwait and southern
Iraq territory, there are still about 250 tons of DU from
missed bullets on the ground or at a depth of up to a few
meters. In contrast to aircraft bullets, the large-calibre
missiles fired from tanks showed almost 100% accuracy,
causing complete damage of Iraqi tanks and armoured
vehicles.

The ground is a pretty hard target to a high speed bullet and they misrepresent it as if the bullet is going to lay on the ground in pristine form

The tests of DU ammunition, conducted on Aberdeen
Proving Ground indicated that after the hitting of armoured
targets 17% to 28% (according to other reports even up to
70%) of projectile mass is converted into uranium aerosols.
Up to about 83% of uranium oxides in this aerosol are Stype
and the remaining 17% M-type, whereas the respirabile
fraction (d<10 Am) may contribute even to 50% of the total
DU mass in the aerosol (US DOD, 2000).
Therefore, from about 50 tons of DU


Slow chemical decomposition of DU ammunition does
not pose a risk for Kuwait’s drinking water supply
. Systematic
measurements of water samples from the only underground
source in the Rawdathein area did not show any
increase of total a activity, and the mean uranium concentration
was 1.2 Ag dm 3. The main source of tap water for
the State of Kuwait is desalinated water from the Arabian
Gulf
, which is appropriately mixed with the brackish water
from the Rawdathein underground supply. DUH!

Another important source of population exposure to DU
in this region can be the inhalation of aerosols with elevated
uranium concentrations. The mean annual concentration of
suspended matter in ambient air about 200 Ag dm 3
observed in Kuwait is among the highest value in the world,
which is the consequence of the frequent dust storms and
high resuspension of surface desert layer
. As was mentioned,
the emission of aerosols from burning tanks resulted
in maximum 10 tons of depleted uranium oxides (UO2, UO3
and U3O8) introduced to the local atmosphere in the form of
particles with diameters smaller than 10 Am in size. On the
basis of the tests with DU ammunition (US DOD, 2000), it
was estimated that uranium concentration could reach even
hundreds or thousands mg m 3 inside a tank just after the
explosion. As the aerosol particles containing DU have high
density, a large part of DU particles (including those from
respirabile fraction) should fall within tens of meters from a
burning tank. Until the wind blows The estimated intake for a man in the
neighbourhood of such a tank hit by single 120 mm
projectile is 0.1 mg of uranium
(US DOD, 2000). Potential
exposure to DU from the burning tanks decreased rapidly
with a distance from a target. The maximum intake in the
case of going through the cloud of smoke from burning
vehicle in the distance of 200 m was determined at the level
of 0.8 Ag of uranium
(US DOD, 2000). Therefore, the risk
of high uranium intakes by inhalation applied during the
Gulf War only to the crew of broken tanks and rescue teams
but not for civilians. dust storms! DUH!
According to US Army data, only 104 soldiers who
survived tank hits by friendly fire and 30 to 60 soldiers who
took part in direct rescue action were included in the highest
risk group. Total uranium intake for this group could reach
maximally 240 mg and the effective doses ranged from 20
to 480 mSv. Expected uranium concentrations in kidneys
corresponding to these intakes were from 0.2 to 4.4 Ag g 1
of tissue. However, the upper value, slightly exceeding the
critical concentration of 3 Ag g 1 corresponds to a single
case of one tank being hit by two projectiles.
So there is an acceptable amount of uranium ingestion DUH!
According to
the same evaluations (US Army, 1995b), the soldiers from
this group could simultaneously intake additionally up to 72
mg of DU by ingestion.
The second exposed to DU group includes several
hundred soldiers taking part in deactivation of Doha camp
after fire and uranium contaminated equipment. The estimated
intakes for this group did not exceed 10 mg and
additional effective dose was below 1 mSv (limit value for
general public). The third exposed group (according to US
army classification) comprises the soldiers whose contact
with DU was incidental and exposure was marginal, far
below the current hygiene and radiation safety standards.
Thats why none of them are allowed to donate blood! Its so safe!
The scale of DU inhalation hazard for the civilian
population of the Gulf area during the 1991 war was
remarkably lower. At least until a dust storm
However, from the point of view of a
few million of Kuwait’s and southern Iraq’s inhabitants, a
very important matter is to assess possible long-term postwar
uranium intakes by inhalation. In the most unfavourable
scenario, one can assume that the whole mass of 4.5 kg of
DU from 15 (10% accurate) aircraft projectiles or from one

Therefore, the DU syndrome cannot be linked only with
DU exposure. This problem is still not fully explained (right ww2 taught them nothing) and
many other causes have been proposed like vaccination
against biological weapons, smoke from burning oil wells or
different chemical releases after bombing (The Royal Society,
2002a,b), but it seems that exposure to DU plays a less
important role
. The downplay! Similarly, because the results of environment
contamination obtained for the Kuwait area are also adequate
for the southern Iraq territory, the widely commented
dramatically deteriorated health status of Iraq’s citizens
cannot be linked with the exposure to DU. However, as
the knowledge of long-term biological effects of uranium
incorporation is still not sufficient, the research in this field
should be continued.

knowledge of long-term biological effects of uranium
incorporation is still not sufficient

Total fucking lying asswipes

On the other hand, the high scientific and technical level
of the environmental radioactivity monitoring allows precise
measurements of DU weathering and its transport in
environment. Such research is now conducted not only in
former Yugoslavia (Veselinovic and Kopecni, 2000; Sansone
et al., 2001; Esposito et al., 2002), but also in the
neighbouring countries (Kerekes et al., 2001), as aerosols
and gases can be transported over boundaries or even over
continents.
Publication of these results in relation to natural
uranium concentrations in the environment can give the
picture of the real hazard, which now is often exaggerated
with apocalyptic ‘‘sensation’’ regrettably widespread also
by some scientists.


1. The specific radioactivity of depleted uranium is 40%
lower than that for natural uranium. External exposure to
g radiation emitted from depleted uranium projectiles is
negligible.
As if we are all sitting on top of uranium mines and lets not talk about the aerosols
2. As a result of military use of depleted uranium
ammunition during the 1991 Gulf War about 300 tons
of DU were dropped in the aircraft rounds and tank-fired
shells in Kuwait and southern Iraq over an area about
20,000 km2.
Yup thats JUST from american forces didnt we just forget a few others?

3. It has been estimated that a large fraction of DU bullets
(f90%) fired from an aircraft miss their intended
targets. The majority of these projectiles are still buried at
various levels in the ground.
Catch those buzz words!  the ground is a hard target! 
Fucking assholes try to make it sound as if the bullets
hitting the ground should be classified differently.


4. Slowly reacting metallic uranium deposited in the humid
ground, in long-term perspective (over several hundred
years
) can cause the increase of its concentration in some
local wells (underground water), but only in exceptional
cases can it exceed the US EPA limit of 30 Ag dm 3.
So who did the 100 year tests?  Aerosolization is pretty exceptional!

5. Comprehensive environmental radioactivity measurements
in Kuwait in the years 1992–1994 do not confirm
significant contamination of depleted uranium over the
territory of this country, which may lead to exceeding the
current hygiene or safety standards.
Whats not significant?

6. Because of the excellent penetrating properties of DU
ammunition, it seems hardly possible that countries
which have armies equipped with it would give up their
use after the protests of pro-ecological organisations.
However, such protests caused a temporary ban on
uranium projectile ground tests in the United Kingdom
(BBC, 2001).
Imagine that!



Typical cherry picking to downplay the hazards associated with uranium that have been well known since world war 2.









quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

For a non sensationalized independantly peer reviewed paper on the reality of DU try this one.

http://people.icess.ucsb.edu/academics/courses/595E/Session%207/BemEnv&HealthConseq.pdf





peer reviewed huh? 




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/19/2007 11:30:53 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
Yes peer reviewed by other environmental scientists not alarmist not paid for by a group with a cuase but submitted to a scientific journal for peer review. Environment International (whoa now that's gotta be a partisan rag)
The article was not cherry picked, as you contend but rather part of my professional reading as an Environmental Scientist.
Your alarmist nature and selection of materials is cherry picking in it's most glorious form.
Have adgenda select pictures for maximum sensationalism and post.
On the other hand I read the article from a respected peer reviewed scientific journal and return to it when this sort of sensationalized tripe hits the net backed up by so obviously partisan axe to grind websites. (sorry the obviously impartial peer reviewed and scietificly based American Patriots Freind Network articles)



< Message edited by Archer -- 10/19/2007 11:36:35 AM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/19/2007 4:27:25 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
Learn to properly quote and respond.

That colored font shit is seriously lame.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/19/2007 4:30:19 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

False premises Farg. Bush doesn't rule Iraq. I do not accept your definition that if a paid agent comes into Iraq and blows a water main, it was done by the USA. The terrorism has gone up greatly since the CPA gave authority to the Elected Iraqi Gov. Pre invasion, some parts of Iraq had better services, and others had far worse.

I do understand you want to hijack this thread, and spout your rhetoric another time. Start another thread if you want to compare services of various Iraqi regiems in the past 2 decades.


Of course it`s our responsibility.It was our personnel,our weapons and ammo, that blew up the treatment facilities,power grids,and pump houses.
To claims this in not our fault,is shirking responsibility.Certainly typical of the neo-conservative mindset.

Before this war and this incompetent president,The US had a policy of "you break ,you bought it".(as Colin Powll put it.)In which ,if we invaded and destroyed a country,we had a responsibility to take care of the people there.We aren`t Russia,after all (yet).

Now ,with the neo-cons in charge,shirking responsibility is policy.There is a ,"What?That`s not my/our problem.",type attitude.Truly,it`s a policy that boarders on criminal negligence.Kind of a ,"let`s blow it up and see what happens" type of thought process. Reckless,arrogant and counter productive.

Before the invasion,there were maybe 7 to 10 cases(per year) of cholera in Iraq.Now there`s over 30,000.

To say that that`s not our doing,is a fantasy.But,that`s what we`ve got right now,..people in charge,who just couldn`t give a shit.

http://www.who.int/wer/2007/wer8241.pdf

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2003/msg03010.html


I would suggest that anyone supporting Bush and the Iraq Occupation is delusional to start with. "Bush Derangement Syndrome" is real, but it ain't what the Neocon Party Whores suggest it is. It's when you're so deranged you actually support Bush and the Occupation of Iraq.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/20/2007 3:18:44 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Yes peer reviewed by other environmental scientists not alarmist not paid for by a group with a cuase but submitted to a scientific journal for peer review. Environment International (whoa now that's gotta be a partisan rag)
The article was not cherry picked, as you contend but rather part of my professional reading as an Environmental Scientist.
Your alarmist nature and selection of materials is cherry picking in it's most glorious form.
Have adgenda select pictures for maximum sensationalism and post.
On the other hand I read the article from a respected peer reviewed scientific journal and return to it when this sort of sensationalized tripe hits the net backed up by so obviously partisan axe to grind websites. (sorry the obviously impartial peer reviewed and scietificly based American Patriots Freind Network articles) 


well that was my peer review of it!

Sounds like the same environmental scientists that are promoting the global warming scare?

So you agree with them then that knowledge of long term biological effects of uranium incorporation is still not sufficient eh?

Why is it that everyone seems to know but you, the army and the peers that wrote this diatribe?  Do you think people cannot tell that it was written in a fashion specifically to appear ignorant to any previous knowledge of what has been known since world war 2?

Glossing over the worst parts while going into detail on least dangerous parts?

It seems to me they have it right down to the dosages and time dont they?  Tested a whopping 100 some guys?  How are those guys doing now btw?



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/20/2007 1:55:59 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


I would suggest that anyone supporting Bush and the Iraq Occupation is delusional to start with. "Bush Derangement Syndrome" is real, but it ain't what the Neocon Party Whores suggest it is. It's when you're so deranged you actually support Bush and the Occupation of Iraq.




Yes and equally is the testing of radiation on our kids and then telling them to literally get fucked for services.

I think worse is the government apologists when the effects of radiation has been known for a long time.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=1224&page=65




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/20/2007 7:13:49 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Yes peer reviewed by other environmental scientists not alarmist not paid for by a group with a cuase but submitted to a scientific journal for peer review. Environment International (whoa now that's gotta be a partisan rag)
The article was not cherry picked, as you contend but rather part of my professional reading as an Environmental Scientist.
Your alarmist nature and selection of materials is cherry picking in it's most glorious form.
Have adgenda select pictures for maximum sensationalism and post.
On the other hand I read the article from a respected peer reviewed scientific journal and return to it when this sort of sensationalized tripe hits the net backed up by so obviously partisan axe to grind websites. (sorry the obviously impartial peer reviewed and scietificly based American Patriots Freind Network articles) 


well that was my peer review of it!

Sounds like the same environmental scientists that are promoting the global warming scare?

So you agree with them then that knowledge of long term biological effects of uranium incorporation is still not sufficient eh?

Why is it that everyone seems to know but you, the army and the peers that wrote this diatribe?  Do you think people cannot tell that it was written in a fashion specifically to appear ignorant to any previous knowledge of what has been known since world war 2?

Glossing over the worst parts while going into detail on least dangerous parts?

It seems to me they have it right down to the dosages and time dont they?  Tested a whopping 100 some guys?  How are those guys doing now btw?




OK enough said you lack even the basic knowledge of what a peer review is. (You don't qualify as the author's peer)
No knowledge of what dosage rates are and how they are calculated. Willingly ignoring the very basic science of toxicity.

Rather than trying to put forth articles from the scientific equivolent of The National Enquireor, try finding something in a science or environmental journal to refute the findings. Get something published (hard copy) in some reputable trade magazine and then maybe we can discuss the specifics.

The Paper quotes the EPA acceptable concentrations in drinking water, and finds the water in the area is bellow that.
(refute the finding with some sampling data otherwise refute the EPA standard)
The paper gives the Worst Cases of UO exposures including those who died.( Those on scene when the DU was actually burning)
Then using the basic science of dilution predicts that the concentrations of UO dust will not reach higher than relatively safe concentrations taking into account the body's ability to pass through DU and UO  (10 days , 100 days etc).
Concentrations are reduced whenever the wind disperses a particulate. (refute that with science if you wish). The "sand storm" you fear will create a problem will actually help reduce the potential for concentrations that will cause a problem. concentrations are usually measured in mg/ M3. High winds will reduce the mg/M3 for particulates is standard science/ Industrial Hygiene

Until you cite something specific that counters the science you're just parroting websites with axes to grind hypeing the situation.






(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Operation Iraqi Freedom - 10/21/2007 10:10:39 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
OK enough said you lack even the basic knowledge of what a peer review is. (You don't qualify as the author's peer)


First that was sarcasm, second you have no clu what my qualifications are or are not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
No knowledge of what dosage rates are and how they are calculated. Willingly ignoring the very basic science of toxicity.

Rather than trying to put forth articles from the scientific equivolent of The National Enquireor, try finding something in a science or environmental journal to refute the findings. Get something published (hard copy) in some reputable trade magazine and then maybe we can discuss the specifics.

The Paper quotes the EPA acceptable concentrations in drinking water, and finds the water in the area is bellow that.
(refute the finding with some sampling data otherwise refute the EPA standard)
The paper gives the Worst Cases of UO exposures including those who died.( Those on scene when the DU was actually burning)
Then using the basic science of dilution predicts that the concentrations of UO dust will not reach higher than relatively safe concentrations taking into account the body's ability to pass through DU and UO  (10 days , 100 days etc).
Concentrations are reduced whenever the wind disperses a particulate. (refute that with science if you wish). The "sand storm" you fear will create a problem will actually help reduce the potential for concentrations that will cause a problem. concentrations are usually measured in mg/ M3. High winds will reduce the mg/M3 for particulates is standard science/ Industrial Hygiene

Until you cite something specific that counters the science you're just parroting websites with axes to grind hypeing the situation.




Counters the "science"?  

The science of how much DU they can safely spread around without wiping out the planet?

You miss the entire point of my post.

This shit has a 1/2 life of billions of years.   Radiation is "known" to cause cancer, mutations to name only 2.

In an ideal world our bodies would be subjected to no radiation at all and these bozo's are doing experiments to see how much radiation we can tolerate so they can use DU in warfare?

Where is your sense of concern or consceince?

Its bad enough just to need it for xrays etc, and you post a "no drama down play" report on it as if that somehow makes it kool and nothing really to be concerned with because after all we know the dosages and it wont kill you before the end of the day.

Of course it dissipates as you get farther from the source, however it is still sub micron and will still enter the body and the mitochondria and granted some comes out in urine but it also gets lodged in tissue.

Radiation (generically), destroys tissue and causes mutations as can be seen in the photos in the OP.

I am shocked to see you are all for "acceptable" tolerance levels of it.  There are others who would disagree with you in that the only "acceptable" level is no man made radiation, especially for warfare with a billion year 1/2 life.  

No drama just (un)common sense.

How about this peer review:
Vets that served in those areas are NOT allowed to give blood.  Does that work for to help you determine the peer reviewed safe dosage levels?




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(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 56
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