Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (Full Version)

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fourpeas -> Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 3:02:03 PM)

***NOTE: this is not a thread meant to flame anyone in particular. I am just responding to a series of threads about body image and self worth. I am not trying to flame any person in particular, and I am thankful to the people who started and contributed to all of those threads.

(this is a bit of a RANT.)

Hmmm...

I read through all the responses on the BBW thread and thought that I would be (maybe not the first) the submissive woman to start a thread on body image and BDSM.

I noticed that many of the women on the thread were either Dommes (who may or may not have identified as being BBW) and subs (many of whom identified as being BBW and proud)

I want to start this off by stating that I am under 5 feet tall and my weight hovers between 105 and 110lbs. And no, I can't find clothes in today's stores either. Everything has to be hemmed because I am so short. And although I am "teeny" (as my Dom says) I also have areas of my body that I love and areas (like my THIGHS) that I hate.

I, too, am tired of all the threads about BBW and BDSM, because I feel like most of them are primarily being discussed by MEN who are making all of us feel bad.

Some men are making the BBW/plus size among us feel unattractive by stating that they always want someone who is height/weight proportionate. And making little jabs here and there about getting their subs in shape.
Other men are singing the praises of the BBW subs/slaves and also making the petite among us feel that there is also something wrong with *us* because we don't have a big ass to smack or "meat on our bones" as is a common saying.

Ladies!! Let's wake up and do what BlkTlFulfilling has suggested and read some Nikki Giovanni and Rita Dove poems!!

The only man's place it is to tell a sub what she should or should not be, is her man/Master/Dom/me! Call me a "not subbie sub" but that pisses me off like none other. Why is it okay for a bunch of men to sit around and tell us what we should or should not be, what we should or should not look like? All of us were born this way. Someone else was born a size 16 because her mother was, just as I was born a shrimp because my mom is 5'1"... GET OVER IT!

I think it's also needed to distinguish between all the wonderful ladies (and men) out there who may have a few extra pounds, but whom are in good shape, take care of themselves, and act responsibly. It doesn't matter if you're 200lbs or 100lbs, if you're not taking care of yourself, you are not being in service to yourself AND to others... including your Master/Dom/me. There is also a difference between a person who is morbidly obese and someone who happens to be a different size. I personally have never been attracted to someone who is morbidly obese, but I have been attracted to and in relationships with men who were larger.

This also applies to the AGE question that has been bandied around these boards like a racquetball!!!!!! AHHHHHHH!!!

We may be submissives, we may be slaves, we may be Dommes or Mistresses...

But we're all women...

And some of us are sick and tired of having our body images and self worth dictated by men! Dom or No! I am a submissive and a feminist and I'm ready for all the women to stand up and claim their power, our power to choose to live our lives as submissives, slaves, workers, mothers, lovers, smokers, non-smokers, whatever!



Ain't I a woman!!

*trips and falls off the soapbox into the crowd, carried by women reading signs that say "Equality Now"*


PS -- my Dom is 5'6" on a good day. AND I am affectionately called "the stompin' submissive."



Kinkypupper -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 3:08:19 PM)

VERY good "rant" and I do agree with you



MsIncognito -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 3:23:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fourpeas

I, too, am tired of all the threads about BBW and BDSM, because I feel like most of them are primarily being discussed by MEN who are making all of us feel bad.



I believe it was Eleanor Roosevelt who said "No one can make you feel inferior without your permission."

quote:


Some men are making the BBW/plus size among us feel unattractive by stating that they always want someone who is height/weight proportionate. And making little jabs here and there about getting their subs in shape.


So what? None of this would bother you this much if you felt good about who you are. If your sense of self esteem can be eroded so quickly by a bunch of people on the internet that you've never even met before then I'd suggest the solution is to work on your self esteeem rather than implying that others need to change their behaviour.

quote:


Ladies!! Let's wake up and do what BlkTlFulfilling has suggested and read some Nikki Giovanni and Rita Dove poems!!


Huh? Who? How about working on yourself rather than continuing to look for external validation as an ego patch?

quote:


There is also a difference between a person who is morbidly obese and someone who happens to be a different size. I personally have never been attracted to someone who is morbidly obese, but I have been attracted to and in relationships with men who were larger.


And what is that difference, exactly? You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth in this post. On one hand it's NOT OK to put down people who are a bit overweight but it's important ot distinguish the "larger" (whatever that means) from the obese. Are obese people of less value than "larger" people? As long as you see yourself as being somehow different from those who are bigger than you then you're just as much part of the problem as the people you're complaining about.

quote:


And some of us are sick and tired of having our body images and self worth dictated by men! Dom or No! I am a submissive and a feminist and I'm ready for all the women to stand up and claim their power, our power to choose to live our lives as submissives, slaves, workers, mothers, lovers, smokers, non-smokers, whatever!


Your body image is dictated by no one but YOU. If you choose to buy all the tripe that society and the media throw at you that's your choice. Reject it and move on and you won't feel the need to rant like this. I'm more dismayed and disheartened by women who blame others for their poor esteem than those who may have a preference for a body more slender than mine.




GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 3:42:04 PM)

I have to say that the threads don't make Me feel bad, but they do make Me mad. Maybe they shouldn't and I should just chalk it up the the shallowness of males, (not all of you!), but the OP does have a point that these threads always seem to be started by someone of the male pursuasion.
I am on the slender side (too slender), and it bothers Me how many emails I get that I know never got past the photo. I am not an object, yet I hit that delete key far too often, because it is painfully obvious that I have received yet another one who is only interested in My body type.
I have a tendency to stay out of the threads about the BBW's, unless they get insulting, because it doesn't really apply to Me. But I do read them. And I just read a comment that made Me stand up and applaud. It referenced the fact that these questions/comments/whines are posted by males, and yet there are many, many males who are overweight. I don't even want to tell you how many times I have accepted a dinner date and the boy had a hard time squeezing into the booth. Once we switched to a table for his comfort.
And I see alot of male profiles, not only without a photo, but conveniently missing the wieght statistic which is optional on this site.
So My question is, what's with the double standard? Is it okay for the men to be big manly men with a beer gut, but the ladies should all be svelte and a size 6? Size 6 with at least a C-cup, that is.



AAkasha -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 3:52:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

I have to say that the threads don't make Me feel bad, but they do make Me mad. Maybe they shouldn't and I should just chalk it up the the shallowness of males, (not all of you!), but the OP does have a point that these threads always seem to be started by someone of the male pursuasion.
I am on the slender side (too slender), and it bothers Me how many emails I get that I know never got past the photo. I am not an object, yet I hit that delete key far too often, because it is painfully obvious that I have received yet another one who is only interested in My body type.
I have a tendency to stay out of the threads about the BBW's, unless they get insulting, because it doesn't really apply to Me. But I do read them. And I just read a comment that made Me stand up and applaud. It referenced the fact that these questions/comments/whines are posted by males, and yet there are many, many males who are overweight. I don't even want to tell you how many times I have accepted a dinner date and the boy had a hard time squeezing into the booth. Once we switched to a table for his comfort.
And I see alot of male profiles, not only without a photo, but conveniently missing the wieght statistic which is optional on this site.
So My question is, what's with the double standard? Is it okay for the men to be big manly men with a beer gut, but the ladies should all be svelte and a size 6? Size 6 with at least a C-cup, that is.


Imagine if as many threads were started by women complaining about how subs are either too short, too BALD or too fat. If you look at the kind of men that often make up a majority of munches and whatnot, they often would never get a second look by a woman of the physical standards they desire.

If you add on top of that how often the men have poor hygeine, poor social skills and are severely lacking in other ways...

And what if women started threads about how sub guys had less money than vanilla guys "in general"?

I don't really get involved in the BBW threads either. And whether or not the generalization is true or not, it *is* interesting that you don't see women posting as often about the general physical qualities that are lacking (and yes guys, they are) in the men involved in BDSM.

Akasha



fourpeas -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 3:52:56 PM)

I do think that there is a difference between a person who is not taking care of him or herself and a person who is. I think this difference can manifest itself in any manner of forms such as personal hygiene, etc. I do think there is a difference between a person who is healthy, and happy with him or herself DESPITE his or her shortcomings (physical or emotional) and a person who is not. I am not generally attracted to people who are not happy with themselves.

I also firmly believe that taking care of one's self, be it hygiene or body or clothing, or whatever, is a reflection of the way you feel about yourself and also your commitment to being the best person you can be. I don't think that this means everyone has to be 95lbs and walk around wearing Louis Vuitton. (This was discussed in another thread about subs looking their best for their Doms/Masters.) But I do think that this translates into being as healthy as one can be. It doesn't matter what you *look* like, if all you do all day is sit around and eat Cheetos then... I don't really think that's taking the best possible care of one's self that you can.


You mistake my rant.

I feel great about who I am no matter what. I don't really want validation. I wanted to talk to other women about it. I wanted to present a viewpoint about women's bodies FROM a woman's perspective since it appeared that most of the threads were started by men.

A bunch of people on the Internet don't contribute one bit to how I feel about myself. And as for the reference about working on myself, I'm definitely doing that. Have been for a while. I love myself, squishy thighs and all.

I posted this rant primarily because I don't believe AT ALL in the tripe and whatever that society or men may throw around. I was simply stating that I have a problem with it. I don't have to believe in it, or be affected by it, to have a problem with it.

I said in the OP that "all of us felt upset" that was mostly a figure of speech. I don't feel "disrespected" when I read some of these posts. But I still have a problem with the way they are worded. Again, I don't have to feel personally disrespected to have a problem with what's being thrown around.



MsIncognito -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 4:04:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fourpeas

I wanted to talk to other women about it. I wanted to present a viewpoint about women's bodies FROM a woman's perspective since it appeared that most of the threads were started by men.


And that's what you got. Or was my viewpoint as a woman who is not pencil thin not valid since I didn't agree with you?




darkinshadows -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 4:49:26 PM)

Whilst I understand your sentiment, I must disagree that is is men that is the problem. From personal experience, I see it as women.

Women want to be thin - if your not, you can be pushed and manipulated by peers. I have seen it happen. I have also seen stick thin women want to be thinner - and why? Because fashion dictates. And not all fashion is men led.

On the whole, and from the majority of posts on another recent thread about women, it was the MEN that said they prefered a women of substance... men don't always want or desire a small frame partner.

I am not considered a BBW - but I have breasts - and I am not stick thin. I have a muscular frame and a backside made for slapping. So I don't count as A BBW - and I responded to the thread. I think its an assumption that men make women feel bad about their bodies - but from what I have seen and heard and experienced, it's more to do with other women.

Men can be harsh - women, however, can be cruel.

Peace and Love



subcheryl -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 4:50:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold



I have a tendency to stay out of the threads about the BBW's, unless they get insulting, because it doesn't really apply to Me. But I do read them. And I just read a comment that made Me stand up and applaud. It referenced the fact that these questions/comments/whines are posted by males, and yet there are many, many males who are overweight. I don't even want to tell you how many times I have accepted a dinner date and the boy had a hard time squeezing into the booth. Once we switched to a table for his comfort.
And I see alot of male profiles, not only without a photo, but conveniently missing the wieght statistic which is optional on this site.
So My question is, what's with the double standard? Is it okay for the men to be big manly men with a beer gut, but the ladies should all be svelte and a size 6? Size 6 with at least a C-cup, that is.




I agree here, one time while I was looking thru the profiles, before meeting my Master, there was one from a man who had a horse ranch, wanted a girl who knew horses, would be willing to learn about horses, and be his sub/slave, but she had to be height/weight proportionate, or willing to work on it, the kicker of it all was the pic he posted had him standing by a pony with a nice belly hanging over his belt, not the classic "cowboy" image if you ask me, I wrote him a note saying before he requested that of his sub/slave perhaps he should take a good look in the mirror.
as a bbw, I do work on myself, I have tried everything, I enjoy being active and I watch what I eat right along with Master, but guess what in the past 7 months have lost about 25 lbs only to gain it back again I would have to starve myself to loose more weight, but I think my body would use water to keep the weight there, LOL. just me, I like me, so who cares other than my Master and he only worries due to high blood pressure and the diabetes in the family history. I care due to the possible health issues asscociated with weight but do what I can to be healthy and active, so that is a start for me.





fourpeas -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 5:34:43 PM)

No, not at all. I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't coming from a standpoint of insecurity or looking for ego boosts.



tetheredkitty -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 6:01:53 PM)

Interesting discussion...there is a similiar one going on at another forum I frequent.

As a size 14, I've found that I have no problem whatsoever getting a date. There are always those few guys out there who refuse to date anyone who isn't skinny, but I don't pay them any attention. I see them as shallow people who are not worth my time.

Honestly, I've found that by being bigger, I tend to attract men who have more depth, more intelligence, etc.

Somebody who's overly concerned with image is not someone I want to spend my life with.

I think it's a sad statement that our society now focus's more on a women's weight than her intellect or personality. Furthermore, sizes that use to be considered "full figured" or "voluptous" are now considered to be "fat" "Obese", etc. I was called a "fat cow" on another one of my forums, for being a size 14. I find that ludicrous!



stormsfate -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 6:20:24 PM)

quote:

Why is it okay for a bunch of men to sit around and tell us what we should or should not be, what we should or should not look like?


I'm sorry, but I find this ridiculous. Everyone has preferences and no one will be able to please everyone. Does this mean that preferences should never be stated or that people should not discuss what they find attractive? Unless you have had this same bunch of men that you speak of personally approach you and tell you what needs changing about yourself, then I'm not sure why you are ranting.

I think in large part, the sensativity to these issues come from ego. I would *like* to be universally found attractive.. Many of us would, to at least some degree. The reality is that we will be found attractive by some portion of the population and not by others no matter WHAT we look like. Isn't that good enough?


best regards,
fate



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 6:58:43 PM)

As well, too often I find people justifying their obesity/unhealthy behavior by throwing up the shield of "society's bad images" to hide behind.

Is society doing some really stupid and wrong things when it comes to teaching people about healthy living and ideal images to look up to? Absolutely.

But being really overweight is STILL unhealthy, in almost all cases it's a choice you CAN control (I can hear the twenty "hormone problem" responses already), and I personally dislike it.

I support someone choosing not to be with someone fairly overweight the same way I support someone choosing not to be with a smoker. Don't get upset with someone because they make the right choice for themselves and it ends up not including you.



fourpeas -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 7:15:31 PM)

tetheredkitty----You have great things to say.

Do you think that it is primarily men or primarily women that determine the standards of beauty?


And BTW you are totally beautiful. welcome to the boards.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 7:27:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fourpeas

tetheredkitty----You have great things to say.

Do you think that it is primarily men or primarily women that determine the standards of beauty?


And BTW you are totally beautiful. welcome to the boards.


That DO? Or that COULD?

I determine what I consider beautiful for myself. For me my dream woman is about 5'7", long almost straight blonde hair with golden natural highlights and green eyes, size B breasts with thin waist, triangular face structure and long lithe body structure.

I find many other women beautiful who look NOTHING like my fantasy, but it is my own idea of what beautiful is.

The problem comes when we try to make others accept our own sense of beauty.



quietkitten -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 7:32:08 PM)

I think it is sad that some people's opinion of themselves hinges on what others think of them. I also think that the tired "health related" ideals related to weight are an excuse to be able to insult overweight individuals. I used to be very heavy... like nearly 300 pounds. At that point in time I was not healthy and I knew it. I took steps to change my lifestyle and have since lost a lot of weight. I am still not super model material and I never will be. Some of you would even consider me fat. But, I am healthy as far as weight goes. Fluctuating between 135 and 145 pounds at any given time and being five feet five inches I still get called fat by some people. I run.. I eat a reasonable diet.... but I will never ever ever be a size 4 and shouldn't matter.
Although everyone has the right to decide what they feel is attractive, they have no right to push that opinion on anyone else.
I have said it before and I will continue to say it. If you have a problem with overweight people... be a decent human being and keep it to yourself.



tetheredkitty -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 7:38:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fourpeas

tetheredkitty----You have great things to say.

Do you think that it is primarily men or primarily women that determine the standards of beauty?


And BTW you are totally beautiful. welcome to the boards.


Thank you for the compliments :)

I think both men and women contribute. It's just one of those things. I've given up trying to understand it. As long as there are some men out there who find me attractive, I'm not stressing over it.

I may be overweight but I'm healthy (according to my doctor at least.) I eat under 2000 calories a day and exercise for about an hour a day (jogging, weights, swimming, etc).

I was a size 3 in high school (and was eating under 500 calories a day to sustain it.)

I figure that if I can eat healthy and exericise daily and easily maintain a size 14 figure, that's obviously the size mother nature means for me to be.

Was I prettier as a size 3? Yes, I think I was. I was also weak and sick all the time.



brightspot -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 10:41:39 PM)

quote:

I determine what I consider beautiful for myself. For me my dream woman is about 5'7", long almost straight blonde hair with golden natural highlights and green eyes, size B breasts with thin waist, triangular face structure and long lithe body structure.

I find many other women beautiful who look NOTHING like my fantasy, but it is my own idea of what beautiful is.

The problem comes when we try to make others accept our own sense of beauty.


Rah! Rah! EM's...
Although I have my own different ideal woman(for me) or a woman I think I would be
wonderful being....I also find myself totally attracted to many kinds of women, it definately has a lot to do with other qualities for me(beyound weight)....and have learned to love me just as I am.. whether one day I think I need to lose a few or not.

*Brightspot



imtempting -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 10:58:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fourpeas

I am a submissive and a feminist


How can you be both?? I thought a feminist yields to no man??

I want a girl that is not really over-weight and knocked people back for being over-weight but then ive been knocked back for being too skinny on numerous times. Been told im too skinny etc but I dont dwell on it. I either dont care or as im doing at the moment im going to gym to put on weight.

In general people over-weight should not complain about other peoples un-healthy habits as being over-weight or under-weight is un-healthy and unless your willing to cop the remarks about being un-healthy then be shhhh

What is wrong with people posting on their profiles what they want in a women?? Are you going to tell me your attracted to every guy in this world??



AAkasha -> RE: Re: BBW, BDSM, Projection of Body Values onto Women (7/29/2005 11:11:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

quote:

ORIGINAL: fourpeas

I am a submissive and a feminist



What is wrong with people posting on their profiles what they want in a women?? Are you going to tell me your attracted to every guy in this world??


I'm pretty specific in my tastes for men and have never been shy about it. If I was unhappy about the overall "look" of the men into bdsm I don't think I'd post complaining about it and asking why there are so many men who are <insert physical attibute>. There's a difference between communicating it in a profile or an email and posting it on a forum (again and again).

I could very easily post a rant about how many men I've met into bdsm don't have good hair or are bald, or balding and in denial. And how they *lie* to me when I ask them in emails about their hair -- when I openly admit I have a hair thing, I like to pull hair, I like to feel my fingers in hair. I need a man to have at least enough hair to pull. They say they have all that, then in person they've got a FIVE head, not a forehead.

Or the guys that say they have the kind of hair I like (I am very specific) but won't provide a picture, then in real life I find they have LONG hair, straggly, unkept, but are bald on top. Eww, gross!

I've been called shallow, a bitch, superficial, etc. What can I say? I know what I like. I know where *my* eyes wander when I enter a room. These bald guys, why don't they get hair treatments if they want to attract more women? Why don't they do something about their hair loss? Are they in DENIAL that they are going bald?

But most importantly, why when I walk into a munch, are most of the guys either balding or have crappy hairstyles? Don't these guys realize a lot of women are just passing them by because their hairline makes them look old?

(I was purposely snide and rude in the above generalizations to make a point)

This has nothing to do with tastes or our rights to have them. It has to do with wasting time whining that a group of people don't meet your ideals of physical beauty. Sure, it looks like there are more heavy people at bdsm events. Sure, it looks like there are more balding men at bdsm events. So what?

I was honest and up front about my hair "ideals" but didn't need to complain to a bunch of people in a forum because I thought too many men in the scene were hair-challenged.

Akasha




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