RE: Giving up war?

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Aneirin -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 3:38:32 PM)
Whether someone be legal or illegal,they still have the potential to be something better. A legal title means nothing as a person.Then there are those that are legal,who sponge of the state, do not better themselves, much like some of the indigenous population, the other group of people everyone moans about when not pointing fingers at immigrants.

popeye1250 -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 3:53:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Whether someone be legal or illegal,they still have the potential to be something better. A legal title means nothing as a person.Then there are those that are legal,who sponge of the state, do not better themselves, much like some of the indigenous population, the other group of people everyone moans about when not pointing fingers at immigrants. If that's really true they can do it in their own countries.

RCdc -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 4:13:39 PM)
Hello Popeye It's .dark. here. I simply see his comments as racist on all nations that are not 'american'. I also see his comments as biased against religions. I respect your pov, and your conversation as at least based on definable facts and reason and that your answers, statements and questions are always straight to the point and as said before, you are an honest debater. The other, is pure babble and vomiting ridiculous 'reasons' that just contradict itself to prove how much more clever his 'nation' is than others. He has ridiculed, with hate, other nations and other peoples beliefs that aren't his. I simply see a big difference between patriotic, personal preference and hate propaganda. Peace the.dark.

Aneirin -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 4:15:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Whether someone be legal or illegal,they still have the potential to be something better. A legal title means nothing as a person.Then there are those that are legal,who sponge of the state, do not better themselves, much like some of the indigenous population, the other group of people everyone moans about when not pointing fingers at immigrants. If that's really true they can do it in their own countries. Not that I am selecting you,but you answered, so I have to respond. If the situation in your own country was as dire as the countries these immigrants were running from,could you do as much? What immigrants run from,we only have the information provided by the media, personal hells are not common knowledge. We have serbians and croats coming to our country, former Yugoslavia.There, we all know about ethnic cleansing.We all are aware the war is over, things are settling down,but still they come, there has to be a reason to run instead of build. How easy do you think it is to leave your homeland behind,perhaps never to think of it again?

philosophy -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 4:19:18 PM)
..oh come on Egpah....surely even you know that many of the treaties signed by the US government and the indigenous peoples of America were reneged upon by the whites.......you keep harping on about some imagined superiority of US culture when it's clear that much of the land that you say was fairly bargained for was merely stolen. i called you on the DNA of your position some time back...it is clear you believe that might makes right, that bullies have a right to win. You don't seem to have the courage of your convictions enough to own up to it.....

EPGAH -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 4:42:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Whether someone be legal or illegal,they still have the potential to be something better. A legal title means nothing as a person.Then there are those that are legal,who sponge of the state, do not better themselves, much like some of the indigenous population, the other group of people everyone moans about when not pointing fingers at immigrants. If that's really true they can do it in their own countries. Not that I am selecting you,but you answered, so I have to respond. If the situation in your own country was as dire as the countries these immigrants were running from,could you do as much? What immigrants run from,we only have the information provided by the media, personal hells are not common knowledge. We have serbians and croats coming to our country, former Yugoslavia.There, we all know about ethnic cleansing.We all are aware the war is over, things are settling down,but still they come, there has to be a reason to run instead of build. How easy do you think it is to leave your homeland behind,perhaps never to think of it again? Now that our world is more or less "filled", every square mile of habitable land claimed (And many nations licking their chops at the idea of colonizing the polar icecaps!), why do those who run, "magically" choose to run to America or Britain? Is that not at least a tacit acceptance that those 2 are best? They could invade over 100 other nations! As to "never think of it [homeland] again", that would be preferable, but too often, they don't just THINK of it, they recreate it here, language and all...and bring their old crimes here, too--even if we somehow overlook the crime of breaching America's borders in the first place--ask your City Hall for a crime-map of where you live, and note that the high crime areas are where OTHER cultures are celebrated![;)] Our community maybe openminded as a whole, but it is still made up of individuals who bring in their own opinions, baggage and agendas...that is understood and even accepted. The problem comes when they don't subjugate those to the host culture!

Politesub53 -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 5:07:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Politesub53 I’m not so sure they had absolutely nothing to do with 911…but after what has come out about the Vice President and Bush enhancing or suppressing information… we were dead wrong to go there. We were deceived!!! Many people died for that deception and if it were up to me there would be an impeachment. But remember the people were behind them thinking they did have a connection…. and were harboring terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. The UK agreed… I don’t believe they are under our control… they had faulty intelligence... which is different then deceived. The People are the country here and they will make changes if slowly. And if we don’t then the people are at fault because eventually our government reflects our wishes. Butch KDsub..... The people of the UK didnt agree, the government did, and not all of them, but many were taken in. The intelligence was flawed and most people here realised that. If Blair had held a referendum to invade Iraq UK troops would not be there now. The WMD issue was seen to be bullshit here, the governemnt chose to ignore what was being said. They also chose to ignore those who said invading Iraq would turn out exactly the way it has. Shame on them.

Aneirin -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 5:12:06 PM)
That is true of history, people coming to other countries bring their baggage and predjudices, it has always been so in every country by every person.I do not grind axes against anyone, unless that is they directly affect me or my family.I do not go with the hue and cry, but accept people for how they treat me as an individual and that of my family. It is all to easy to read and view reports made by the media bent on making a story, a story if which gets out of hand they feed upon for their own end and create problems which may have not existed before. You epgah,have your oppinions of immigrants, but have you ever tried to be friendly and welcoming to them, if you did,you may change your stand point. Don't get me wrong, but I was from a part of my country where ethnic minorities and immigrants were very much a fable, there were none what so ever.My shock was being thrust into the city of Birmingham where I lived nearby for two years.Fearful I was at first,they were different, but soon I came to know and embrace their culture. I still feel different with ethnic minorities and due to my past ,I still harbour a fear as another here can contest.To me that is purely human nature,those that are different become a difference, but I mean no harm,they are us,the same as us. I embrace them and their culture, as to crime,well that is the same as everywhere else,poverty and dissatisfaction propogate crime, race is irrelevant.

farglebargle -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 5:18:42 PM)
quote: ask your City Hall for a crime-map of where you live, and note that the high crime areas are where OTHER cultures are celebrated! Wrong, it's the Po' White Trash getting Drunk, and hitting their kids.

EPGAH -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 6:23:53 PM)
I have, I've even hosted some exchange students. Apparently, assimilation is viewed as "evil"...the first one didn't bother learning a lick of English, and in order to "communicate"--and I use that term loosely, we had to use a translation dictionary and POINT to the word(s) we meant to say to each other. He didn't do too well in school...The second one was female, ALSO didn't know a lick of English, but learned it quite fast. However, SHE had the opposite problem: An utter lack of confidence! She could speak well, but if the teacher called on her, her lingual memory utterly failed, and she just plain froze! (They've now both moved in--LEGALLY--to Colorado, and brought their parents and a beloved aunt. The bad news, they moved into an existing Armenian community, and are steadily regressing in English skill!) As I said, I was born in Japan, and back then, the Japanese liked Americans, especially me, they loved petting my little blond head for good luck! I still have mental pictures from back then--stills, but hey, that's quite impressive for that age! We moved to Texas, and I was put into a Montessori School. At risk of starting a "holy war", Montessori School was INFINITELY superior to public schools back then, so I can only calculate that the gap has widened since then, especially with the degradation in school-quality caused by "No Child Left Behind". It was multicultural WITHOUT busing or any of the Politically Correct forced-integration programs! The kids got along pretty well, and once Dad brought home a computer, I was able to advance superfast in computers, (We even donated one to them--this was back when a computer was quite an "investment"--as in expensive! I got to teach the teachers!) although I had trouble with cursive, I did very well in the CONTENT of my writings! My best friend was an Asian kid with a "trick thumbnail"--it was disconnected at the cuticle end, rather than the "nail" end! Hours of fun grossing everyone out, although the next day, everyone wanted to see it again...Kids are easily amused! The school bully was a Mexican third-grader, but the librarian was the bully's mom--an absolutely GORGEOUS creature whose Man had left her and the punk--and it was fun watching the mom humiliate the bully by making him apologize! Then we went to Turkey, and it was culture-shock to be blunt...food was much more expensive, we had to pretend to be Germans, because Turkey didn't entirely enjoy Americans, and if they found out we were Americans, "violence might ensue"--and Turkey was our ally! (Perhaps America should have taken that as a subtle clue that they were going to be "inconstant allies"?) Then we were transferred to Crete, with a DOD school. I can't say enough BAD things about the DOD system. Kids were stuck in overcrowded classrooms, the less-equipped kids stole from the better-equipped kids (Little things like pencils, crayons, paper, you know, school-supplies!) Given my feelings about the poor stealing from the rich, I bet you can guess which group I was part of? Kids were forced to play together, regardless of personaltiy conflicts, age discrepancies, etc. Depite that, I still managed to form a fair circle of friends, of various races, who were well-mannered and fairly intellectual, like myself! Perhaps the fact that we were perched precariously, surrounded by Greeks...We ALL feared the Greeks! The fact that they looked like Freddy Krueger with extra face-melting might have had something to do with it...Or APBs on base of Greeks kidnapping American children from the base...Hmm...Then we went to Mainland Greece, where the Greeks' skins were sound, rather than melted, but we still had to be careful to a point that Americans would call paranoia! When we got back to America, things were different. Population was more, new housing and buildings of all kinds had sprung up, and old ones had gone to pot...Minorities weren't the friendly entities we had left, but were big, scary monsters we had to fear--and the Greeks had stolen half our clothes, our TV, and our lawnmower! I went to college, and the minorities THERE were well-spoken, well-heeled, civilized again...even though some TALKED about overthrowing "The Man", they would eventually talk themselves out of it, since "The Man" had provided such a wonderful campus. At night was a whole other story, obviously. Campus security was too busy checking parking permits to do anything about robberies or rapes. When they finally caught the criminals, please guess as to their ethnicity? Then, of course, some wilding Mexicans took out 5 of the students--my friends! They caught one of the gang, who got off because he and his buddies were shooting at the BUILDINGS, and the STUDENTS just got in the way...The judge was American, but apparently intellectually qualified to be Mexican, he "bought it" and let the goon go. The next day, said goon was killed by his own gang! So much for even the hope of vengeance. After that, I sort of hated Mexicans with an unnatural passion...I stopped volunteering at the Multicultural Resource Center, because making foreigns feel more welcome was no longer part of my agenda... It didn't exactly help when they successfully petitioned for ESOTL to be OPTIONAL, and things around campus started going bilingual English/Spanish! An institution of "higher learning" shouldn't need people who can't even "learn" English! Since then, Mexicans have gotten steadily more demanding--but ONLY in favor of fellow Mexicans, not more rights for everyone! Some say they're the same as us, and want the same things, but the WAY they go about it is quite wrong! America was settled by the English, and all the other groups learned English, so why are ONLY Mexicans arrogant enough to change OUR country to match THEMSELVES, rather than adapt to the country they've invaded! Or are we simply good enough to invade and loot, but not to actually RESPECT?

philosophy -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 9:21:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH America was settled by the English ....do you really know so little of your own country's history, or are you trying to be ironic? The Irish in Chicago, the French in New Orleans, the Dutch in Amish country, to name but a few....then there's the vexed question of the Africans taken to the USA against their will....oh, and i assume you meant British not English....us Welsh, Scots and Cornish take exception at that sort of blatant ignorance of how the UK operates........

meatcleaver -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 11:03:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Politesub53 I’m not so sure they had absolutely nothing to do with 911…but after what has come out about the Vice President and Bush enhancing or suppressing information… we were dead wrong to go there. We were deceived!!! Many people died for that deception and if it were up to me there would be an impeachment. But remember the people were behind them thinking they did have a connection…. and were harboring terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. The UK agreed… I don’t believe they are under our control… they had faulty intelligence... which is different then deceived. The People are the country here and they will make changes if slowly. And if we don’t then the people are at fault because eventually our government reflects our wishes. Butch KDsub..... The people of the UK didnt agree, the government did, and not all of them, but many were taken in. The intelligence was flawed and most people here realised that. If Blair had held a referendum to invade Iraq UK troops would not be there now. The WMD issue was seen to be bullshit here, the governemnt chose to ignore what was being said. They also chose to ignore those who said invading Iraq would turn out exactly the way it has. Shame on them. It seems to me that Blair didn't believe in the intelligence either or why would he have tried to doctr it to make it more convincing. My guess is that we went along with Iraq for political reasons and nothing else. For some reason our political masters seem to think Britain can't survive with an independent foreign policy. How I wish we were more like France in that respect.

NorthernGent -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 11:44:23 PM)
Did you hear Blair's speech, the one that went something along the lines of, "from the deserts of x to the mountains of x to the plains of x: they too are our cause". Around the same time, he wrote a letter to Isaiah Berlin asking him if he thought it was possible to combine postive and negative liberty. I think Blair doctored the information because he thought he was right to attempt to change Iraq, and he wanted to experiment with a combination of positive and negative liberty, i.e., individual liberty in the interests of a wider/greater cause. His background is catholic, which doesn't necessarily define him, but helps to explain his self-righteousness. Obviously, a couple of British companies have made some serious profit on the back of the invasion, but I don't think that was Blair's goal. Most people in Britain actually agreed with going into Iraq providing two conditions were met: a) It was UN sanctioned. b) There was conclusive evidence of WMDs. The vast majority of Britons were very sceptical about WMDs, simply because we've seen all this bollocks before, and, to be frank, the Americans are seen as gung-ho cowboys who have no qualms about shooting first and asking questions later, so any military venture associated with the US was bound to raise some serious doubts. The problem in Britain was the power-hungry New Labour government; they pushed it through parliament with the backing of the conservatives. When you consider that the principles of the Labour Party are international co-operation and peace, then you start to get an understanding of how those in government simply towed the party line at the expense of their principles: a few politicians resigned from government because they did not agree with Iraq, the rest towed the line. The British people weren't asked.

meatcleaver -> RE: Giving up war? (10/18/2007 11:53:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH America was settled by the English ....do you really know so little of your own country's history, or are you trying to be ironic? The Irish in Chicago, the French in New Orleans, the Dutch in Amish country, to name but a few....then there's the vexed question of the Africans taken to the USA against their will....oh, and i assume you meant British not English....us Welsh, Scots and Cornish take exception at that sort of blatant ignorance of how the UK operates........ The biggest European ethnic group in the US is German. If I remember right Germans make up 40% of American Europeans, British 16%, Irish 11% (There has been strong arguments against this figure in do far it is claimed to be numerically impossible and many people call themselves Irish American on the strength of one Irish great grand parent.). Recent DNA profiling in Britain and Ireland suggest the Amglo-Saxon and Celtic blood is so mixed up that one has to go on percentages. ie. English = 75% AS 25% Celtic, Irish = 75% Celtic, 25% AS. Then there is all the other Europeans of course which makes up the other 33%. Of course, all these have been mising in the last couple of hundred years.

meatcleaver -> RE: Giving up war? (10/19/2007 12:01:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Did you hear Blair's speech, the one that went something along the lines of, "from the deserts of x to the mountains of x to the plains of x: they too are our cause". Around the same time, he wrote a letter to Isaiah Berlin asking him if he thought it was possible to combine postive and negative liberty. I think Blair doctored the information because he thought he was right to attempt to change Iraq, and he wanted to experiment with a combination of positive and negative liberty, i.e., individual liberty in the interests of a wider/greater cause. His background is catholic, which doesn't necessarily define him, but helps to explain his self-righteousness. Obviously, a couple of British companies have made some serious profit on the back of the invasion, but I don't think that was Blair's goal. Most people in Britain actually agreed with going into Iraq providing two conditions were met: a) It was UN sanctioned. b) There was conclusive evidence of WMDs. The vast majority of Britons were very sceptical about WMDs, simply because we've seen all this bollocks before, and, to be frank, the Americans are seen as gung-ho cowboys who have no qualms about shooting first and asking questions later, so any military venture associated with the US was bound to raise some serious doubts. The problem in Britain was the power-hungry New Labour government; they pushed it through parliament with the backing of the conservatives. When you consider that the principles of the Labour Party are international co-operation and peace, then you start to get an understanding of how those in government simply towed the party line at the expense of their principles: a few politicians resigned from government because they did not agree with Iraq, the rest towed the line. The British people weren't asked. I actually did see that speech which really indicated Blair was a dangerous ideologue. Parliament backing him was both a sad and a bad day for Parliament. The British people were totally ignored, they let the government know how they felt on the streets. As for Americans being gung-ho. Apparently Blackwater men in the recent scandal were following US military tactics, if attacked, return 360 degrees of fire. The British return fire in the direction of the attack so don't kill so many innocent individuals. Still trying to get my head round what the US military tactic is supposed to achieve.

popeye1250 -> RE: Giving up war? (10/19/2007 12:31:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Whether someone be legal or illegal,they still have the potential to be something better. A legal title means nothing as a person.Then there are those that are legal,who sponge of the state, do not better themselves, much like some of the indigenous population, the other group of people everyone moans about when not pointing fingers at immigrants. If that's really true they can do it in their own countries. Not that I am selecting you,but you answered, so I have to respond. If the situation in your own country was as dire as the countries these immigrants were running from,could you do as much? What immigrants run from,we only have the information provided by the media, personal hells are not common knowledge. We have serbians and croats coming to our country, former Yugoslavia.There, we all know about ethnic cleansing.We all are aware the war is over, things are settling down,but still they come, there has to be a reason to run instead of build. How easy do you think it is to leave your homeland behind,perhaps never to think of it again? Aneirin, personally that wouldn't affect me as I have dual US/Irish Citizenship. I'm sure they could always use another sheep herder up in Donegal where my family comes from. You seem to be infering that we should overlook our immigration laws in the U.S. because some people are "desperate." I remember my grandmother telling us stories of Irish people who were denied permission to enter the U.S. because they were crippled or diseased at the Immigration center in Boston the first week she was here. It was like Ellis Island in NYC I guess. They were put on a ship back to Ireland. She came over alone at age 15 in 1911 from Bredagh Glen near Moville, Donegal. My grandfather from Buncranna, Donegal came over alone at 16. They met at a dance in the Boston, Mass area I heard. On my mother's side they came from Sligo, Ireland. So, no-one's, "pointing fingers at immigrants." I don't think anyone has any problems with "immigrants" at all, it's the Illegal Aliens that are the problem! Apples and oranges. There's only one way into the U.S.- legally. I have absolutely no concern about people who sneak into the U.S. Poison them, shoot them, mass deportations, whatever works but they need to leave. The operative word being "Leave." I left the Catholic Church over their position on illegals. Oh, and all that um abuse! They seem to have a big blind spot when it comes to THE LAW.

EPGAH -> RE: Giving up war? (10/19/2007 7:12:19 AM)
LOL, or we could always go back to our parents' wisdom. When I was growing up, my parents used to say, "As long as you're living under OUR roof, you'll obey OUR laws! If you don't like it, LEAVE!" Regardless one's legal or illegal status, this would make a great way to "filter" America's populations! We could become the WORLD's first gated community!

popeye1250 -> RE: Giving up war? (10/19/2007 10:04:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Did you hear Blair's speech, the one that went something along the lines of, "from the deserts of x to the mountains of x to the plains of x: they too are our cause". Around the same time, he wrote a letter to Isaiah Berlin asking him if he thought it was possible to combine postive and negative liberty. I think Blair doctored the information because he thought he was right to attempt to change Iraq, and he wanted to experiment with a combination of positive and negative liberty, i.e., individual liberty in the interests of a wider/greater cause. His background is catholic, which doesn't necessarily define him, but helps to explain his self-righteousness. Obviously, a couple of British companies have made some serious profit on the back of the invasion, but I don't think that was Blair's goal. Most people in Britain actually agreed with going into Iraq providing two conditions were met: a) It was UN sanctioned. b) There was conclusive evidence of WMDs. The vast majority of Britons were very sceptical about WMDs, simply because we've seen all this bollocks before, and, to be frank, the Americans are seen as gung-ho cowboys who have no qualms about shooting first and asking questions later, so any military venture associated with the US was bound to raise some serious doubts. The problem in Britain was the power-hungry New Labour government; they pushed it through parliament with the backing of the conservatives. When you consider that the principles of the Labour Party are international co-operation and peace, then you start to get an understanding of how those in government simply towed the party line at the expense of their principles: a few politicians resigned from government because they did not agree with Iraq, the rest towed the line. The British people weren't asked. N.G. so, the "U.N." screwed you guys too eh?

meatcleaver -> RE: Giving up war? (10/19/2007 11:59:54 AM)
We were fucked by Blair. He was just a lying fucking toe-rag, much the same as Bush. The UN fucked no one, if it was up to the UN, the British and the Americans wouldn't be in Iraq now and I think that is a situation everyone would choose now if they had the choice, including Bush and Blair.

philosophy -> RE: Giving up war? (10/19/2007 12:39:30 PM)
....Epgah, i'm stil waiting for your explanation of how the English settled the US, and how the USA always treated fairly with the indigenous peoples there.....or, when caught in an untruth, do you always adopt the ostrich position?

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