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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/22/2005 9:01:45 PM

Wolfie648

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Off topic post:

quote:

G'day Wolfie,
I've come accross similar sentiments too. The truth is that there is no such thing as free will. Yopu are free to exert you will any way you want, however there is always a price to pay somewhere down the track. Sometimes the price is right sometimes it is not worth the pain and hassles unless it is a matter of honour and then any price is worth it.

Ut oh I'm about to stir the pot :-) You're in charge of the truth about free will are ya? ;-) For myself I act as if I have free will - couldn't tell you if I really have it or not.

D (owner of j)

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/22/2005 9:27:30 PM

Wolfie648

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Off topic post (when I say that folks I mean my post is off-topic):

quote:

As a 'Christian' I can fully understand the statement... no such thing as a 'free will'... in those terms... it does not come free... but as is said - at a price. But exercised with honour... and not fear...

Ut oh I'm about to stir the pot. 'Free will' not buy 2 get one free not buy a package of cereal and get a toy 'free' (sorry you paid for it in the price of the cereal or the company promoting it paid for it) or get into heaven free card (o' what a good little human you've been) don't pass go don't collect $200 but 'free will'.

Good old webster's 1988 edition:

free (fri:) 1. adj. not subject to external (God) restraints or domination.

It goes on and on what free is but that is the first entry and I think sufficient.

Now I'm not a Christian and I hate to admit it but I do believe in God (I'd really rather not as there is no proof (that I am aware of)). I don't know if said God is cruel, kind, or can even be referred to in those terms or not. I don't know what It's definition is of free will - all I have in tangible form is Webster's.

I choose to do 'good'. Good as man defines it. Morals are a man made construct (no proof that I am aware of that God made morals - I am open to the idea that I may be wrong but will require scientific proof; not hearsay and rhetoric).

D (owner of j).

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/22/2005 10:18:36 PM

MissDiandSirHugh

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We had a look at the site and even explored a few of their other advice there which we both looked at each other and thought how much it has changed since we last went to church which was buggered if we can remember.
Not that we dont belive in there being some higher authroity to the human race but there our thoughts finish.
After reading a few things on the site we are woundering if may be an exorcism may be what they need in case its the devil at work twisiting their words.

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 2:02:45 AM

Kasia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorOne

I was just doing some google searches and I stumbled upon this site.

Just out of curiosity I decided to post it and see what you guys think of it.

I think its hypocritical way of twisting the simple things to fit into ones limited small world. There will alway be people who will find some words in Bible to justify their doings whatever those may be. I dont like it. If I take actions I dont need any superior being justifying it - I take my own responsibility.
The mentioned site looks like plain d/s but with divine gratification to me. Its just the usual stuff - "I am not doing it because I am perverted and kinky but because my God/Mother/Superior ordered me to...... therefore I am not the one responsible for my actions". Honestly, for me, it stinks.
Just my opinion of course.

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 3:09:20 AM

themischievous1

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Christian domestic discipline has a yahoo group that has always reminded me a great deal of most M/s, TPE, Absolute slavery relationships in many respects. S and M is not normally involved, but women are completely submissive and respectful to their husbands who are the head of the household. The husband has the final word, is allowed to discipline and spank as needed, and there are essentially no limits if the husband is submitting himself to God and then dominating his wife under spiritual direction.

There are a variety of Christian people making up these kinds of groups involved in Christian DD; not all are right-wing fundamentalists. Lumping any group of individuals together under the same mindset just because they refer to themselves as "Christan" is a mistake. It's stereotyping and we all know how well that works. (Seen the movie "Crash" yet??)

There are all kinds of Christians; some are kinky, some are straight, some are gay, some like BDSM, some like DD, some don't. Some consider everything to be "sin." Whatever works for them..

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 4:37:11 AM

darkinshadows

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Well, seeing as this was a thread about a chrisitian site(lol... even though this is a really old thread 'resurrected' - lol, thats apt) and I was speaking from )my) christian perspective - the no, I am not naive enough to believe that 'free will' - for a christian - is 'free'... it comes at a cost - how others outside of chrisitanity percieve 'free will' is their definition.

Good old websters of today describe 'free' as not being subject to anyone else will. No cost - no price... well, from a chrisitan point of view there is no such thing. You choose God or You don't - its that simple. If You choose Him, then Your free will is His... its no different to a Master or Mistress/slave enviroment. My will is not His. If its not - then I pay for the consequence as it is 'played' out...

There is no thing as free will... because freedom always comes at a price. Be it chrisitan free will - or human free will.

Purchase that box with the 'free gift' by all means - if You do - the consequence is you get something extra - if You don't then You don't get anything extra... those are the consequences...

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 5:29:03 AM

BlueDevil

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I went to a wedding a few weeks ago and watched a father give his daughter away. I sat there and wondered about that for a bit because I was so bored. Women can vote. Divorce. Have abortions. Sleep with whomever they like. But, in some ceremonies, the symbolic transfer of property still takes place. Strikes me as strange. Some would argue that it's a symbolic transfer of responsibility, but, it's the same thing: a thing being given to a man who, by nature of his genitals is more responsible, and, by inference, more inteligent, stronger, better.

Suffering is something that I can't stand to see in someone that doesn't enjoy it. I get tired sometimes of reading about the submissive gift, it seems so one sided, but, I know that if women were all forced to submit due to religious doctrine or the law that a percentage of them would be abused, made to suffer, and that the misery would be a terrible thing. So, I'm glad that it's against the law to make a woman a slave in this country. Consensual slavery gives us the opportunity to enslave willing participants that, hopefully, find some joy in the service that they perform.

I don't know how someone that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ could stand to have a non-consensual slave, or the kind of wife that many fundamentalist Christians think that all women should be. I think as a society we've been there and done that and legislated it into history.

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 6:15:16 AM

Leonidas

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DD as a movement has grown steadily since it started. The term "HOH" (head of household) relationship is also sometimes used interchangably with DD. If you do a search on those terms on this site you'll undoubtedly find some folks looking for that kind of arrangement. "Christian DD" is a relatively new, but probably inevitable twist. Husband as head of household is a pretty strong theme among conservative Christians. In the post above this one, BlueDevil says he doesn't know how a Christian could keep a slave, or have a submissive wife. Maybe it's because they read their bible:

"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. " (Ephistians 23-24).

Wives, be in subjection to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18)

Servants, obey in all things those who are your masters according to the flesh, not just when they are looking, as men pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing God. (Colossians 3:22)

Now, BlueDevil did say "the teachings of Jesus" and not Christianity. I guess you could make a point that they aren't the same thing, but then you'd have to blame it on Paul and figure that Christianity went wrong almost from the start. When Paul wrote these things, he was appealing to Romans who still held that the male head of the house was a sovereign over both his slaves and the rest of his family. In Paul's defense, he was trying to sell Jesus in competition with other wandering Philosophers (Stoics in particular) who appealed to the men that they were talking to in terms that they could understand given their values.

That was a long time ago. How about something more recent in terms of Christian thinking?

Here's something from family.org. Some of you might have heard the guy who runs this site (James Dobson) on the radio. He does the "Focus on the Family" spots that are syndicated nationally:

This may be shocking news to you, but an overwhelming majority of wives in my survey said they want to submit to their husbands. They want their husbands to be the head of the home, and they have no desire to usurp that God-given position of leadership. (emphasis added)

And here you guys thought that you invented dominance and submission. Nope. Sorry. It's ordained by you-know-who. The movement of Christians into DD is just returning to their roots. As they try to follow the good Dr. Dobson's advice, they discover that it's difficult for a wife to submit to her husband without a power struggle. It's difficult to set clear lines and boundaries. It's difficult for there not to be animosity and grudges when one adult is supposed to submit to the will of another. Then they run across a DD site and read the testimony of men and women who say that a good spanking once in a while is an antidote for these issues. Viola! Christian DD. It's hardly anything new. Men have been spanking their wives since there have been wives. Men not spanking their wives is the relatively new invention.

Personally, I think it's a good thing. If they are going to be playing around with submission for religious reasons avoiding power struggles and grudges is probably a good thing. I have always noticed that men who spank their women seldom beat their women, if you know what I mean.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/23/2005 6:51:15 AM >

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 6:25:44 AM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfie648

Off topic post:

quote:

G'day Wolfie,
I've come accross similar sentiments too. The truth is that there is no such thing as free will. Yopu are free to exert you will any way you want, however there is always a price to pay somewhere down the track. Sometimes the price is right sometimes it is not worth the pain and hassles unless it is a matter of honour and then any price is worth it.

Ut oh I'm about to stir the pot :-) You're in charge of the truth about free will are ya? ;-) For myself I act as if I have free will - couldn't tell you if I really have it or not.

D (owner of j)

I make no claim to be in charge of free Will, however my comment was from a Pagan perspective and based on a lifetime of study and practice. You are certainly entitles to put any spin you want on it and by doing so exorcising your free will. What is true for me and those who follow the same path I do may not be true for you or any other person..... Frankly I am suprised that you took a potshot at me [personally, I thought better of you, just shows how falable we all are.

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 6:37:46 AM

darkinshadows

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Don't you find it fascinating and also positive, that a christian and a pagan have similar thoughts on a collection of words?

Peace and Love

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 6:44:18 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

Good old webster's 1988 edition:

free (fri:) 1. adj. not subject to external (God) restraints or domination.

One thing that I am observing here is the mix up You seem to have between the word 'free' and the word 'freewill'... thats like mixing up the words 'house' with 'housefly' and thinking they are the same - or even similar. However, they are not.

Peace and Love

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 6:47:01 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

I don't know how someone that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ could stand to have a non-consensual slave, or the kind of wife that many fundamentalist Christians think that all women should be. I think as a society we've been there and done that and legislated it into history.

There are people in all walks of life that use non consensual acts - christianity included - because perfection is impossible.
However, the issue isnt about non consensual DD - so I hardly see how this point is helpful in a discussion like this?

Peace and Love

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 7:26:50 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

I don't know how someone that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ could stand to have a non-consensual slave, or the kind of wife that many fundamentalist Christians think that all women should be.

this slave is with you right there and would add this:

how can someone that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ base ANY of their justifications for their behavior on what Moses,(or any other Old Testament character for that matter) or Paul DID or WROTE about?

this from the site in question:

quote:

Those who practice DD base their stance on scriptures:

Old Testament scriptures that describe God chastising his "adulterous" people (spiritual wife). DDers see a parallel of this in a husband's responsibility to chastise his wife.
Hebrews 12:5-11, Proverbs 10:13b, 13:24 and similar scriptures. DDers see this as God commending the use of discipline and by extension physical discipline.

Eph 5:22-25 Wives ought to submit to their husbands as the church is subject to Christ: DDers feel this command for wives to submit to their husbands is validation that a wife should submit to his use of physical punishment.

it makes about as much sense as the strict Baptist theory that anything that isn't a hymn or that makes you feel like dancing is "SINfull" music based on the scripture Hebrews 5:19

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 7:30:04 AM

BlueDevil

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quote:

There are people in all walks of life that use non consensual acts - christianity included - because perfection is impossible.

How do non-consensual acts relate to perfection? Why would people commit non-consensual acts because 'perfection is impossible'? Can you support the statement that perfection is impossible? And do you know what any of that has to do with this discussion?

quote:

However, the issue isnt about non consensual DD

The issue is DD. One aspect of it is non-consensual DD. Which is what some DD was for so much of the history of Christianity, and is today in some places, and is what more DD will become again if some fundamentalists have their way, their Supreme Court Justices, and continued success in running for public office.

quote:

- so I hardly see how this point is helpful in a discussion like this?

Obviously.

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 7:46:58 AM

Leonidas

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quote:

how can someone that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ base ANY of their justifications for their behavior on what Moses,(or any other Old Testament character for that matter) or Paul DID or WROTE about?

Because they think that the Bible is the revealed word of God, and its advice is exactly a guide for how a moral man or woman should behave? It always fascinates me to hear people claiming to be Christian, but then disavowing their own bible because it doesn't suit them. That stuff about God making man in his own image is backwards, I think. It's always appeared to me to be the other way around.

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:00:56 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

quote:

There are people in all walks of life that use non consensual acts - christianity included - because perfection is impossible.

How do non-consensual acts relate to perfection? Why would people commit non-consensual acts because 'perfection is impossible'? Can you support the statement that perfection is impossible? And do you know what any of that has to do with this discussion?

Nothing. But that was my point. I do not think that non consensual suppression or 'dominance' in this case is mentioned on that site at all. Is that what You read about that site? Ifso, then your post makes more sense, but it doesnt make it relevant to the discussion because the site isnt about non consensual acts. If it was about non consent - then the Mods wouldnt allow it.

As for perfection being impossible - show me something flawless and I will accept it. Yet everything is flawed. If perfection could be achieved, then what a waste for knowledge...

quote:

The issue is DD. One aspect of it is non-consensual DD.

Howso 'nonconsensual'? Please show me the example from the text.

Your assuming non consent just because it doesnt sit right with you. Sure, if the fundementalist get their way, it becomes non consent... but are we talking about consensual chrisitians and their view of DD - or forcing consent onto others...

The site is showing its thoughts on the way DD works for them - but its not forcing it on others.

Fundementalism and forcing non consent on others is another thread entirely.

Peace and Love

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:09:42 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I don't know how someone that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ could stand to have a non-consensual slave, or the kind of wife that many fundamentalist Christians think that all women should be.

this slave is with you right there and would add this:

how can someone that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ base ANY of their justifications for their behavior on what Moses,(or any other Old Testament character for that matter) or Paul DID or WROTE about?

this from the site in question:

quote:

Those who practice DD base their stance on scriptures:

Old Testament scriptures that describe God chastising his "adulterous" people (spiritual wife). DDers see a parallel of this in a husband's responsibility to chastise his wife.
Hebrews 12:5-11, Proverbs 10:13b, 13:24 and similar scriptures. DDers see this as God commending the use of discipline and by extension physical discipline.

Eph 5:22-25 Wives ought to submit to their husbands as the church is subject to Christ: DDers feel this command for wives to submit to their husbands is validation that a wife should submit to his use of physical punishment.

it makes about as much sense as the strict Baptist theory that anything that isn't a hymn or that makes you feel like dancing is "SINfull" music based on the scripture Hebrews 5:19

From the same site it also mentions...

quote:

Eph 5:28-29 "So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church."

Husbands are told to treat their wife as they treat their own flesh. They are to:

nourish up to maturity
to nurture, bring up
to warm, keep warm
to cherish with tender love, to foster with *tender* care

But I suppose it is much easier for some, to take words fom out of context and use it as questioning a section of a community, than finding that which it mentions positively...

Peace and Love

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:18:41 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

it makes about as much sense as the strict Baptist theory that anything that isn't a hymn or that makes you feel like dancing is "SINfull" music based on the scripture Hebrews 5:19

There is no Hebrews 5:19?

Peace and Love

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:23:19 AM

BlueDevil

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quote:

Your assuming non consent just because it doesnt sit right with you.

No, you are assuming that you understand my motivation. I on the other hand have no idea what motivates you, nor would I presume to guess. History documents non-consensual DD. So do the statisics of spousal abuse. Women marry men, and some of those men decide to use the bible to enforce their will. Violence and the threat of violence turn what was a consenual relationship into something that isn't.

quote:

Sure, if the fundementalist get their way, it becomes non consent... but are we talking about consensual chrisitians and their view of DD - or forcing consent onto others

I was talking about DD, and the aspects of it that are abused. I'm not discussing the website, just the subject of DD. Read the subject line. No mention of a website there.

The fact that the website doesn't mention abuse does not mean that it doesn't exist, and it certainly doesn't mean that it can't be mentioned in a thread about 'Christian DD and BDSM'.

As to perfection, and your other commentary, it does belong in another thread.

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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:30:49 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

But I suppose it is much easier for some, to take words fom out of context and use it as questioning a section of a community, than finding that which it mentions positively...

"out of context"? hardly. this slave copied and pasted from their site their ENTIRE list of references THEY posted as the foundation for their belief that DD is sanctioned in the bible.

this slave was referring to CHRIST'S teachings in her response, not Paul's which you referenced, perhaps you are vaguely familiar with the difference between the two?

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