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RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:35:51 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
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quote:

No, you are assuming that you understand my motivation. I on the other hand have no idea what motivates you, nor would I presume to guess. History documents non-consensual DD. So do the statisics of spousal abuse. Women marry men, and some of those men decide to use the bible to enforce their will. Violence and the threat of violence turn what was a consenual relationship into something that isn't.


Assumptions are always made, lest we explain to one another!

Indeed, there is much documentation on abuse in DD - however it isnt always bible orientated. Its just an excuse. Abuse isnt sexual, biblical or anything else. Its human. The excuse may be used, but it doesnt make it the right excuse.

quote:

I was talking about DD, and the aspects of it that are abused. I'm not discussing the website, just the subject of DD. Read the subject line. No mention of a website there.

The fact that the website doesn't mention abuse does not mean that it doesn't exist, and it certainly doesn't mean that it can't be mentioned in a thread about 'Christian DD and BDSM'.


Now this is where personal interpretation comes in - for Mod One asked what we thought about the site & dynamic She posted. Not whether it was consensual DD or not. I was just observing that the topic was going off base into non consent which is abuse. The site and the usage of Christian doctrine to uphold DD was the OP - which of course one is free to voice their thoughts... but not to turn it into a non consent issue. Again, like perfection, that's another thread.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to BlueDevil)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:37:03 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

There is no Hebrews 5:19?


Sorry, try Ephesians instead

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:37:44 AM   
BlueDevil


Posts: 39
Joined: 10/6/2005
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quote:

If perfection could be achieved, then what a waste for knowledge...


And what, if you don't mind my asking, does this mean? Off topic, but, I'd be fascinated to better understand your thoughts.

< Message edited by BlueDevil -- 10/23/2005 8:39:15 AM >

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(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:41:50 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

But I suppose it is much easier for some, to take words fom out of context and use it as questioning a section of a community, than finding that which it mentions positively...


"out of context"? hardly. this slave copied and pasted from their site their ENTIRE list of references THEY posted as the foundation for their belief that DD is sanctioned in the bible.

this slave was referring to CHRIST'S teachings in her response, not Paul's which you referenced, perhaps you are vaguely familiar with the difference between the two?



I think You have misread the site - it is actually against the teachings, and argues against beatings - not for it. It has quoted the misuse of christian doctrine to support DD and states that it is not fully upheld. Its a big site, but I am sure You will find the time to read it throughly, should you so choose.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:44:04 AM   
darkinshadows


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If You wish to discuss that then I certainly am quite willing! However, I do not wish to hijack ModOnes post, so If you wish to open such a topic, then I will respond. If not, I am happy to write privately. However You wish.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to BlueDevil)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:51:11 AM   
BlueDevil


Posts: 39
Joined: 10/6/2005
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quote:

Now this is where personal interpretation comes in - for Mod One asked what we thought about the site & dynamic She posted. Not whether it was consensual DD or not. I was just observing that the topic was going off base into non consent which is abuse. The site and the usage of Christian doctrine to uphold DD was the OP - which of course one is free to voice their thoughts... but not to turn it into a non consent issue. Again, like perfection, that's another thread.


It might have been nice had I refrained from mentioning the abuse and non-consensual aspects of DD, but, it was hardly off topic. It was supported by the subject line, and by the history of the topic.

The use of Christian dogma to support spousal abuse is DD. Anyone under the age of 18 has not consented to it, and, under law, no one over the age of 18 can. It is by it's nature, non-consensual.


_____________________________

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
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(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:53:41 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

There is no Hebrews 5:19?


Sorry, try Ephesians instead


Lol... ok... thanks... Too many scriptures, never enough time to rememeber them all!...

I didnt know they used that text as an example... could you guide me to a relevant information platform on this?

Thanks in advance, much appriciated.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 8:58:19 AM   
BlueDevil


Posts: 39
Joined: 10/6/2005
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quote:

If You wish to discuss that then I certainly am quite willing! However, I do not wish to hijack ModOnes post, so If you wish to open such a topic, then I will respond. If not, I am happy to write privately. However You wish.


I don't think it's worth it's own topic. But, thank you for your offer. I'm sure everyone else understood what you were saying.

_____________________________

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
Winston Churchill

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 9:01:46 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

The use of Christian dogma to support spousal abuse is DD. Anyone under the age of 18 has not consented to it, and, under law, no one over the age of 18 can. It is by it's nature, non-consensual.


In the US maybe - I am not fully up to date with US laws on abuse or domestic laws. However I do know of couples who live DD within a christian environemt consensually on their and Gods terms, not local laws. By such statements, there are many things that we do within a BDSM context that by local, state or country laws, is non consensual, and that includes abusers.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to BlueDevil)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 10:18:27 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

this slave copied and pasted from their site their ENTIRE list of references THEY posted as the foundation for their belief that DD is sanctioned in the bible.


sorry, that should have said "the" instead of "their"

quote:

I didnt know they used that text as an example... could you guide me to a relevant information platform on this?


this slave attended a junior high school--7th and 8th grade at a private school run by strict First Baptists. they had a guy that would roam the mall on the weekends looking for students who might be "behaving inappropriately" by being within 3 inches of the opposite sex. that was one of the many rules enforced on campus at all times, punishable with "demerits", accumulate enough and you are tossed out, but this slave digresses.....anyway, they had a music teacher who went to great lengths to defend their position on hyms being the only music sanctioned by God, therefore eliminating the possibility of school dances,
and used that reference as his "proof". his belief was that listening to any type of secular music was blasphemy. this slave asked him about the Doobie Brothers song..."Jesus is just alright with me" and he said "there it is there, evil is right there in the lyrics, jesus is JUST ALRIGHT? he isn't "just alright" he's a lot more than that.
he missed the point, as do many.


(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 11:11:20 AM   
Wolfie648


Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline 		Ut oh I'm about to stir the pot :-) You're in charge of the truth about free will are ya? ;-) For myself I act as if I have free will - couldn't tell you if I really have it or not.

D (owner of j)

quote:

G'day Wolfie,
I've come accross similar sentiments too. The truth is that there is no such thing as free will.

I make no claim to be in charge of free Will,


It wasn't so much a pot shot (from my perspective), I mean I did have a winky after it
;-) as much as I knew it would stir up some good debate.


I was providing the opportunity for someone to 'prove' that free will exists.

D (owner of j)


_____________________________

Possibly.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 11:14:42 AM   
Wolfie648


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Joined: 9/14/2005
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quote:

I am not naive enough to believe that 'free will' - for a christian - is 'free'... it comes at a cost - how others outside of chrisitanity percieve 'free will' is their definition.

There is no thing as free will... because freedom always comes at a price. Be it chrisitan free will - or human free will.


Peanut butter! :-)

D (owner of j)

_____________________________

Possibly.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 11:17:20 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfie648

Ut oh I'm about to stir the pot :-) You're in charge of the truth about free will are ya? ;-) For myself I act as if I have free will - couldn't tell you if I really have it or not.

D (owner of j)

quote:

G'day Wolfie,
I've come accross similar sentiments too. The truth is that there is no such thing as free will.

I make no claim to be in charge of free Will,


It wasn't so much a pot shot (from my perspective), I mean I did have a winky after it
;-) as much as I knew it would stir up some good debate.


I was providing the opportunity for someone to 'prove' that free will exists.

D (owner of j)



Fair enough mate I can live with that.. I just never can figure out the "winkie" things, they mean nothing to me so I didnt see it for what it was ... It may as well been a Arabic for all it meant to me...... Just a dumb assed Grizzly.... (I'm better with fishes and loaves ~ You get the loaves, I catch the fish and we both eat raw salmon pizza.....

< Message edited by IronBear -- 10/23/2005 11:18:35 AM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Wolfie648)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 11:20:23 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfie648


Peanut butter! :-)

D (owner of j)



Definately crunchy....

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Wolfie648)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 1:36:09 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimson2004

God never said that people should not have sex. God created sex for reproduction...obviously, but it was also for our enjoyment. He said that sex was a wonderful creation and it was beautiful and perfect in the right context. That context is within marriage. A lot of Christians distort this into "sex is bad" when sex is wonderful. Many Christians are responsible for confusing their own religion and therefore confusing people outside of that religion.


A D/s couple I know who have been married for 12 years, called me the other day to tell me that the new pastor at their church (a church they belong to because it's generally failry open-minded) told the congregation that they must remember that lust is a sin in all forms...even to lust after your spouse.

They came home stunned.

It's not the Gods who are to blame for all the religious hypocrisy and intolerance throughout history and still alive and well today, it's those human beings who claim to speak for the Gods.

Cin <~ agnostic


_____________________________

Cin

quote:


My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to Crimson2004)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 4:51:49 PM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		Two observations on this thread:

1) The OP asked about a site condemming DD as Biblically errant and incompatible with Chritian faith.

In two pages, no one has addressed the site the OP pointed to - instead they have all commented on DD, and thrown in a few "Christians are bad/intolerant/hypocrites" darts (hateful prejudice of Christians being are of course de rigeur for this crowd). No one adressed the OP - everyone jumped to cast their barbs at someone else's lifestyle choices.

2) With a few exceptions, ya'll are some of the most intolerant, judgemental and mean-spirited people to be found.

You know what? I'm not interested in shitting on other people's lifestyles. Someone wants to have a DD household? - fucking fine by me. Femdom household? - their life, not mine. Lesbian Buddhists? - I repect other people's right to make their own choices, respect other people's religious convictions, their self-identification.

Everyone who spent energy bashing someone else's faith, kinks and family choices is a hypocritical, judgemental fool.

You know who you are.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/23/2005 5:46:51 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Hmmmm I don't think I tooks a shot at any religion or belittled either religion or lifestyle (be out of order, out of character and against my honour codes, if I did inadvertantly do so).

Faramir, if you Sir believe I am one of those who you spoke about, you and any who may feel offended have my sincere appologies.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/24/2005 9:57:58 AM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		ooops.

< Message edited by edana -- 10/24/2005 9:58:46 AM >

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edana

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/24/2005 10:02:25 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

In two pages, no one has addressed the site the OP pointed to - instead they have all commented on DD, and thrown in a few "Christians are bad/intolerant/hypocrites" darts (hateful prejudice of Christians being are of course de rigeur for this crowd). No one adressed the OP - everyone jumped to cast their barbs at someone else's lifestyle choices.


Is that a fact? Where exactly did I throw any barbs at the "intolerant christians"? I just said what I knew about DD, and why it's probably attractive to some conservative (I hesitate to use the word fundamentalist) Christians. You want to know what I think of the site? Fair enough.

It's laughable. It starts out by saying that what these folks are doing is "against the word of God" but if you read it, it doesn't seem to come up with any words of God that they are contravening. Instead, it just explains why the site creators don't like the idea, and why it contravenes their interpretation of the "word of God". I guess their assumption is that they are better at it (interpreting, that is) than the DDers. There is a strong suggestion in what they write that they suspect that the Christian DDers are just using a few passages from the bible as a pretext for getting away with somthin' naughty. As evidence, they point to the fact that some Christian DD sites link to sites that have gasp!! full or partial nudity.

In short, it's crap. Christians certainly don't hold the monopoly on crap, so you can't really say that it's "Christian crap", rather, it's just "crap by some Christians". There you go. That's what I think.

You got awfully hot under the collar about someone dissing this particular lifestyle, Faramir. It goes on all the time here and you don't generally seem to take much notice. Are you a Christian DDer, or do you hold similar beliefs that your position as head of your house is ordained by the Big Guy?

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/24/2005 10:04:36 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Christian DD and BDSM - 10/24/2005 10:03:19 AM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline 		Quoting from the original site:
quote:

There are often strong implications that if you are truly submitted you will see DD as relevant and biblical, while those who reject DD are somehow being rebellious, or are immature in their understanding of submission and authority.


Hmmm... I don't know who she is spending time with, but I am guessing that most DDers who come from a BDSM perspective do not demand everyone adopt their way of life.

I get the impression from the site, that the authors are people who have discovered Christian BDSM/DD and feel threatened by it (for some reason). Therefore they have to pass judgement on it and find a mental cubby hole in which to place it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueDevil
The use of Christian dogma to support spousal abuse is DD. Anyone under the age of 18 has not consented to it, and, under law, no one over the age of 18 can. It is by it's nature, non-consensual.


BlueDevil, domestic abuse is a serious problem. Yes, back in the Bad Old Days there are people who used Scripture to justify abuse. But I think the authors of the original site are concerned about BDSM and, like many outsiders, are afraid of what they don't understand.

(in reply to BlueDevil)
Profile   Post #: 60
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