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RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 9:00:09 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

Fugue states, dissociation, are very, very scary. You can't decide that you will remove the association knives have in your subconscious. You have to limit them.

PTSD is bad enough in a setting like that where you can't get into any trouble with a caring partner watching over you, but deliberately evoking flashbacks so they start happening randomly, while driving for example, can be deadly. If they're happening a lot, then in addition to therapy I would visit a psychiatrist for medication to interrupt them also.

As far as the poster who plead inability to get therapy, there are several self help groups where all you're asked for in money is the cost of a cup of coffee and ten minutes putting chairs away. And that's a price anyone can afford once a week. I suggest ACOA, I've always found that to be particularly helpful.

(in reply to sammiebabygirl)

Post #: 21

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 9:37:27 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

This happened to me with my Master a few times, early on, although I never lost my memory over what happened. Certain emotions would be triggered. Once, he just swatted me on the bottom with his shoe for fun and I shrieked and recoiled and trembled. He immediately had me kneel at his feet, took my face in his hands and said, "What's going on?" (his typical response when he sees I am not responding well emotionally to something) All activity came to a halt until I was of clear mind again - in his hands that never takes very long.

(in reply to onesweetsubbie)

Post #: 22

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 9:40:40 AM

grlneedstolearn

Posts: 728
Joined: 1/29/2007
Status: offline

Luckily for me it has not happened because i know my Dom would not push anything like that on me. But yea, i've had flashbacks while playing with him yes and my usual defense mechanism is to shut him out and ignore/advoid him. We do talk about when, but again he doesn't push when i talk about it, since he knows most of just the basics of what happened. Good luck in finding a support group and know that your not the only one with PTSD.

(in reply to onesweetsubbie)

Post #: 23

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 10:05:06 AM

Pulpsmack

Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: onesweetsubbie

I am going to be seeing a therapist and trying to find a group for support.

Probably the most refreshing and sensible thing I have read here in a while. It is rather disturbing how many people leave their exposed wires dangling after being aware of their state. Some even count on the other for the fix. It's nice to see someone own her issue and put forth the effort to fix it.

(in reply to onesweetsubbie)

Post #: 24

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 10:13:36 AM

Hergirl0824

Posts: 119
Joined: 10/2/2007
Status: offline

i worried about this issue when Ma'am and i decided to take our relationship to a physical level. luckily i was able to tell Her of the abuse and what usually triggers my flashbacks....She was receptive and helpful and understanding which goes a long way towards me being more comfortable and avoiding the flashbacks...flashbacks are never pretty and are sometimes there even after years of help and therapy...learning to understand why they happen and accepting that theya re a natural responce to your situation is a big step...good luck and congrats on making the first big step by finding the help you need

_____________________________

collared to Mistress Sizzlynn

When i let go of what i am, i become what i might be

(in reply to onesweetsubbie)

Post #: 25

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 10:20:10 AM

sammiebabygirl

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/23/2004
From: Upstate, NY
Status: offline

Two things to remember about a flashback.

1. It happened in the past and you are safe now.

2. You are in control and can stop it at any time.

Now, I know this sounds simple and believe me, it is not. It took me years in therapy to learn to do this, but IT IS POSSIBLE!!!

A friend of mine refers to her flashbacks as movies that she is watching. They are vivid and life-like, but she can turn it off.

jen

_____________________________

"Men are like pianos. When they get upright, i feel GRAND!!!"

http://charldine.com/jen2820

(in reply to Hergirl0824)

Post #: 26

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 11:22:21 AM

MistressDoMe

Posts: 295
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

quote:

ORIGINAL: onesweetsubbie

I am going to be seeing a therapist and trying to find a group for support.

Probably the most refreshing and sensible thing I have read here in a while. It is rather disturbing how many people leave their exposed wires dangling after being aware of their state. Some even count on the other for the fix. It's nice to see someone own her issue and put forth the effort to fix it.

I also agree with this point.
Many here might benefit from serious therapy, if it continues
to be a serious issue in their life.
Some might consider therapy prior to becoming involved in a relationship.

(in reply to Pulpsmack)

Post #: 27

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 1:08:25 PM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: camilleisready

Having PTSD myself, I think getting a kind and thougthful therapist can be a considerable gift to yourself.

cammy

Yes but I have learned to communicate what those abuse episodes were about and consent to have those incidents incorporated (more or less) into a scene so that he who inflicts is also the one who kisses and heals and she who would humiliate is controlled.
The no shame game: no pain no gain.

ed. to add I am also a therapist

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 10/21/2007 1:14:03 PM >

(in reply to camilleisready)

Post #: 28

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 4:18:28 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

Somewhere along the line, it all changed. The last thing I remember was the needle/knife discussion. He said that my reaction was the most dramatic thing he had ever seen. He said my eyes changed and I changed. He said I was trying to hit him, he saw it coming and stopped it. He said it lasted about 15 minutes, but I don't remember.

He took fantastic care of me afterwards, but I don't remember any me hitting/freaking out. Has anyone had this happen to them?

I am going to be seeing a therapist and trying to find a group for support.

I have had this happen with a previous slave, who had been in an abusive marriage for a number of years. One night we were playing rather intensely, and the scene triggered a particularly unpleasant memory for her, which became a full-blown flashback.

PTSD is a difficult condition to fathom, particularly where the flashbacks rear their ugly heads. It is difficult, if not impossible, to know where all the triggers lie--even when one's full history (including the traumas) is known.

WRT to your current relationship with your dominant--at the risk of sounding cavalier, I hope both of you realize "shit happens". From what you describe, your dominant did not knowingly cause the flashback, he merely had the misfortune to trip over the psychic landmine within you. While certain modes of play might be ill-advised at least for the short term, there is no reason for either you or him to fear another flashback. When they happen, regard them as a sign of an unresolved issue, and no more than that.

WRT to the flashback itself, kudos to you for realizing the need for additional counselling and support. That is the best thing for both of you at this juncture.

_____________________________

(in reply to onesweetsubbie)

Post #: 29

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 5:12:17 PM

sammiebabygirl

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/23/2004
From: Upstate, NY
Status: offline

Sorry for the quick hijack.

What is WRT? You can post your reply in my Collarchat-ese thread to avoid further hijacking, if you like.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1360879/tm.htm

Thanks,
jen

_____________________________

"Men are like pianos. When they get upright, i feel GRAND!!!"

http://charldine.com/jen2820

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 30

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 5:41:22 PM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline

I've had panic attacks and other strange reactions during play. I've never had a classic post traumatic stress reaction during a session, but I have in other areas of my life, so I kind of recognize what's going on. Everything's fine, then, all of a sudden, it all flips around and everything feels out of control. Sometimes I panic and want to run, other times I get really agressive and go cold. I've never blacked out.

There doesn't seem to be a single, identifiable trigger but, for whatever reason, I get transported back to a time I can't quite pin down and everything gets really scary and I move into a fight or flight mode. I've learned that I have to be especially careful with any kind of breast play after I had a panic attack and came close to running away during a scene involving a violet wand and then I almost laid out my Master when he said something about torturing my nipples. I sort of know why, but not really though its an emotionally charged area. There's been other times I've had reactions that aren't nearly as concrete in the sense that the 'trigger' strikes me as elusive though I'm pretty sure it has something to do with abandonment/engulfment fears.

There's some things that make it more likely for me to slide into a backward spiral. I have to be careful with sensory deprivation: blocking sight and sound makes it that much more difficult to stay in the here and now. I need to be able to see/hear my Master when he plays me so I know he's there keeping me safe.

These kinds of things started happening a couple years ago when I was playing rather heavily on a regular basis. At the time, I didn't have the skills to differientiate what was happening in my head and what my Dom of the time was doing to me but I decided to take a two year time out from any kind of SM play or relationships and started up in therapy. So, now when I have a strange reaction, instead of projecting onto my Master, I do what I can to talk to him about whats going on in my head without blaming him. My thinking is that he's like an innocent bystander. I'm grateful for his willingness to stand by.

I don't know what all has "caused" my post traumatic stress tendencies (I refuse to use the word disorder). Its not something I've been able to piece together, though everytime I have a reaction I don't quite get, I feel a little closer to figuring out the puzzle. Each crisis takes me back to a place I used to be and everytime I go back I learn a little more about myself.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

(in reply to onesweetsubbie)

Post #: 31

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 5:54:54 PM

onesweetsubbie

Posts: 26
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline

Well, the getting "back on the horse" thing has been difficult. I just get worried how this will affect anything in the future between us. The logical part of my mind knows that this will pass, but the emotional part of my mind is freaking out thinking that I will be cast aside because I freaked when we tried again to be intimate.

This is all new to me because I have never had these reactions before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

I have panicked, but I've never forgotten what happened. The worst part wasn't the panic...it was getting back on the horse, so to speak. I hope you guys are able to move past this, and don't forget that he might need some support to help you deal with this.

Mine was more about phobia than abuse, but really I just let myself get good and mad which helped me. Maybe when I was mad I felt more agressive...but, I guess you just go with whatever works. Good luck!

(in reply to spanklette)

Post #: 32

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 6:12:42 PM

welshwmn3

Posts: 126
Joined: 3/14/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sammiebabygirl

Two things to remember about a flashback.

1. It happened in the past and you are safe now.

2. You are in control and can stop it at any time.

Now, I know this sounds simple and believe me, it is not. It took me years in therapy to learn to do this, but IT IS POSSIBLE!!!

A friend of mine refers to her flashbacks as movies that she is watching. They are vivid and life-like, but she can turn it off.

jen

Would that mine were that easy to stop.

I have two types of flashbacks: 1) The 'typical' reliving the entire thing, feeling all the feelings, physical sensations, being in the memory and having no possibility of breaking out until it releases me, and 2) what I've taken to calling "mini-flashbacks" or "strong memories", these are memories that are GOING to play, and I can't stop them, but I'm not IN the time/setting reliving the action. Neither of these I can stop once it's fully started.

The former, if somebody who knows what me going into flashback and/or what some of my triggers are, and who can talk me out of it by asking "now" questions (where are you now, who am I, what is your name -- valid because I've changed my name since I was a kid -- what date is it, what time is it), it can about 75% of the time get stopped before it starts. If I'm not with somebody doing the above, and recognize I'm going into a flashback, then I can try doing the "now" stuff myself, but it's much less effective.

With the latter, I've not found anything that stops it from starting.

The results between the former and latter are different as well. With the typical flashback, I go completely non-responsive, don't see anything going on in the present, I'm *there* reliving it all until it lets me go. With my 'mini-flashbacks" or "strong memories" I'm at least still functional. It's a memory, I'm not back in the middle of the thing, I can converse, continue to do whatever I'm doing, but I still can't stop it from happening.

Of the two, I'd rather have the latter. If it were possible to never have either again? I'd definately take that choice. So far, for all the therapy I've been in, all the skills I've developed, etc, I've not been able to make them go completely away.

Hopefully, one day.

(in reply to sammiebabygirl)

Post #: 33

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 6:14:20 PM

onesweetsubbie

Posts: 26
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline

I have often wondered at times, about trying to recreate the assault. That way I am in control of an out of control situation. I have heard that what I have thought is actually normal. But it only goes as far as a thought.

As for being a submissive and taking that role due to abuse, I wouldn't agree at least for me because I can differentiate between being abused and play. Maybe some people can't, but that is just my opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: camilleisready

Having PTSD myself, I think getting a kind and thougthful therapist can be a considerable gift to yourself.

cammy

Yes but I have learned to communicate what those abuse episodes were about and consent to have those incidents incorporated (more or less) into a scene so that he who inflicts is also the one who kisses and heals and she who would humiliate is controlled.
The no shame game: no pain no gain.

ed. to add I am also a therapist

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 34

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 6:33:43 PM

sammiebabygirl

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/23/2004
From: Upstate, NY
Status: offline

Check out this site:

http://members.tripod.com/mysteryicebengals/id38.htm

or do a google search on grounding techniques. I think they will help keep you from going into those mini-flashbacks, if you can feel one coming on.

Hope this helps.

jen

_____________________________

"Men are like pianos. When they get upright, i feel GRAND!!!"

http://charldine.com/jen2820

(in reply to welshwmn3)

Post #: 35

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 6:59:23 PM

welshwmn3

Posts: 126
Joined: 3/14/2006
Status: offline

Thank you. I enjoyed reading the website (although at first I thought 'advice on how to deal with people with MPD' from the ex-husband was going to be weird, but it was good too).

Most of the time, for the 'mini-flashbacks', they just happen. The first time (as this is something relatively new, in the last two years) this happened, I was reading a book by Marianne Williamson. There's usually nothing triggering in any of her books (new age/self help/feel good books), yet while I was reading the book, I was having this memory that wasn't spawned by anything going on, that I could figure out. No amount of anything I did (which included grounding and centering, deep breathing, and relaxation techniques) helped. And unfortunately, it still hasn't done anything.

Unlike a full flash back, where Master can usually talk me out of it (one thing he used recently, while he was driving and I was trying to stay present) was saying, "I wasn't at that place/time. I'm here. You know you aren't there. Stay with me." That helped a lot. Gave me a 'lifeline' to the present (as it were) to hold on to. Unfortunately, even when I'm with him and the mini-flashbacks start, no amount of talking helps.

My therapist is trying to help me work out defenses against this, and hopefully get it to the point where, when these play out, I can just stop them. Unfortunately, it's not happened yet.

But I'm not out of hope. Master won't let me stop working, and I won't let me stop working, towards my health.

(in reply to sammiebabygirl)

Post #: 36

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 7:39:05 PM

amelliagrace

Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline

I have PTSD. Over time, I've discovered my triggers and found ways to diffuse most of them, or at least, reduce the severity of my reactions. Every few years, however, I find a new trigger. Fewer as time goes on, further between, but they still crop up. When they do, I do some serious work on ferreting out why that person/thing/place/event is a trigger. At that point, future incidents can be mittigated. There is no set way to do this. There are no one-size-fits-all answers. As mentioned by another poster, a good counselor or therapist is an investment, and you are worth the investment. Such therapy need not take years and years. I have no doubt you are capable of learning to do much on your own, once a therapist gets you started.

Know that you are not alone, and that what happened last night isn't unusual at all.

My best to you -

Grace

(in reply to onesweetsubbie)

Post #: 37

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 7:43:44 PM

amelliagrace

Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: welshwmn3

Most of the time, for the 'mini-flashbacks', they just happen. The first time (as this is something relatively new, in the last two years) this happened, I was reading a book by Marianne Williamson. There's usually nothing triggering in any of her books (new age/self help/feel good books), yet while I was reading the book, I was having this memory that wasn't spawned by anything going on, that I could figure out. No amount of anything I did (which included grounding and centering, deep breathing, and relaxation techniques) helped. And unfortunately, it still hasn't done anything.

Unlike a full flash back, where Master can usually talk me out of it (one thing he used recently, while he was driving and I was trying to stay present) was saying, "I wasn't at that place/time. I'm here. You know you aren't there. Stay with me." That helped a lot. Gave me a 'lifeline' to the present (as it were) to hold on to. Unfortunately, even when I'm with him and the mini-flashbacks start, no amount of talking helps.

My therapist is trying to help me work out defenses against this, and hopefully get it to the point where, when these play out, I can just stop them. Unfortunately, it's not happened yet.

But I'm not out of hope. Master won't let me stop working, and I won't let me stop working, towards my health.

I've found that for myself, the technique highlighted above in your post is a very powerful tool.

Regards -

Grace

(in reply to welshwmn3)

Post #: 38

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 8:18:18 PM

xolarkinxo

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Well, the getting "back on the horse" thing has been difficult. I just get worried how this will affect anything in the future between us. The logical part of my mind knows that this will pass, but the emotional part of my mind is freaking out thinking that I will be cast aside because I freaked when we tried again to be intimate.

This is all new to me because I have never had these reactions before.

I had similar feelings. One thing that seemed to make the panic attacks worse was the fear of having one. Something my therapist told me was the best way to gauge how well you are coping is to count how many things you are avoiding. The more you are avoiding, the worse you are I quess. I was originally avoiding things like my car, going outside after dark, going out alone, going into big cities,etc. Eventually I had to begin to face each thing and retrain my brain. Learning that these things were not neccessarily going to recreate the same incident. Tacs was a huge help to me. Very understanding. I found that acknowledging aloud to him when a panic attack was beginning helped me to stop it. He said things to me that my therapist had suggested like, "you are safe." I have learned to control and stop panic attacks, but they still pop up from time to time. And I understand that may never go away. I figure it is similar to having a seizure disorder. The disorder will never go away; but, I have managed it.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd/index.shtml

This site has alot of information on the disorder. The APA.org does as well.

(in reply to welshwmn3)

Post #: 39

RE: PTSD reaction during sex/play - 10/21/2007 10:11:48 PM

SunnyTawse

Posts: 151
Joined: 11/17/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysliloneds

the problem i see in this line of thinking is: even with people who don't have PTSD or had any bad experiences or trauma during their lifetime, when in sub-space, and someone has crossed a line physically/mentally that your body/mind can't take or turns into sensory over-load, the natural 'fight to survive instinct' kicks in and takes over even if we aren't aware of it. seen it happen a few times; had it happen with myself one time.

I'm not sure what line of thinking you were refering to, since you quoted the OP's whole original post, but I would second what you say about a submissive's progression into an almost feral state.

It was bad enough when my first submissive went non-verbal 30 years ago... that freaked me out. And remember, 30 years ago there wasn't much reference material or mentors around to be had--I couldn't find ANY. But just as I was acclimating to the fact that she would sometimes go non-verbal when the scene was intense, she slipped into an animalistic state and became quite vicious. Since then I've learned that there is a natural, predictable progression anyone will follow if and when they go deep enough, and it doesn't always have to do with intense physical stimulation; it has to do with how deep a state of subspace they achieve.

I'll take a look tomorrow night and see if I can find the information that I came across. Please contact me directly if you have any interest, since it seems these forums evolve well beyond any given point in 24 hours.

Sunny Tawse
Sadien Domina

(in reply to daddysliloneds)

Post #: 40

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