quote:

ORIGINAL: McKwaig

Does anyone really believe the War for Southern Independance (Mistakenly called the Civil War) was fought to end slavery?  The winning side in any war, writes the history books, and with the federal government controlling the schools, it is easy to see how this myth has been perpetuated.
The war for southern Independence was fought,I was taught, for states rights.  Which particular state right was it fought for.  Could it have been the right to own slaves? 

Only a small percentage of Southerners owned slaves,
Somewhere between 25% and 50% depending on just how you count it.  If you count all who had owned slaves it is closer to the larger number if you count only those who owned at a given time then it is closer to the lower number.

and I find it somewhat difficult to believe that most of the men who fought for the Confederacy did so to perpetuate something that did not affect them.
Soldier seldom know what the real reasons are for them fighting.


Slavery did not become an issue until two years into the war, and it is a fact that the Emancipation Proclimation ONLY freed slaves in states in secession.  And in occupied territories, slavery was still permitted.
The Emancipation Proclamation feed no one.  It was a ploy by Lincoln to keep Britain from coming into the war on the side of the south.


Lincoln was a true politican.  He said what each person wanted to hear, and this is evident when the states of Georgia, South Carolina and Florida were captured.  The commanding general stated that these states were under Martial law, and slavery was incompattible with this concept, therefor all slaves in those states were free.  Lincoln wrote an executive order stating that NO ONE, not even the President could free the slaves, and thus they were still considered slaves.
This would seem to contradict the Emancipation Proclamation.  Do you have a cite?

Is anyone aware that 1/3 of the slave owners were black? 
Do you have a cite for this assertion? While it is true that some blacks did own slaves are you trying to play a statistics game...How many blacks owned how many slaves?  Does it change the nature of slavery if the owner is black,brown,green or purple?  Was this true across the whole south or were there some states in which a black person could only be a slave and not a freeman?

Or, that the very first slave owner in the colonies was a black man?
Samuel Maverick is considered to be the first slave holder in the colonies sometime around 1625.  No he was not black.  He was an Englishman and the son of an episcopalian minister.


Many black slave owners were themselves former slaves who had bought their freedom and then purchased slaves.
Just how many black slave owners were there and how many slaves did they own?  How many black slaves bought their freedom in the south from 1776 to 1861? 

As for the myth perpetuated by Alex Haley, in Roots, very few of the slaves transported to this country were chased down and captured. 
This would mean that the "Fugitive Slave Laws" were just a myth and the Dred Scott decision never happened.

Most were actually POWs and were sold.
?????????????????????????????

It is a well documented fact that few whites ever ventured far from the coast line, because many that did, did not live to tell about what they saw.
Who was it then who took all of those Cherokees from the Carolinas to Oklahoma.
I thought Lewis and Clark went all the way to the Pacific ocean.

All it takes is a little digging to find out what really happened.
What did really happen?

As for repeartions, they were paid for with the blood of over 600,000 men, fully 1/5 of the adult polulation of the USA at that time!
Not so...those men, like all soldiers, died to make rich people richer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Reparations are just full of it.  After the Civil War, did freed slaves and surpressed minorities deserve them?  Yeah, sure.  Today?  No.

Damn people out to steal others' money.
Kinda like the government huh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

California Looks to Casinos for Revenue
By JOHN M. BRODER AND CHARLIE LEDUFF Published: February 2, 2003 Trying to close a $34 billion budget deficit, Gov. Gray Davis has cast a covetous eye on a gushing revenue stream just beyond his reach: the billions pouring into California's Indian reservations, where slot machines and blackjack have made casino gambling the fastest-growing industry in the state. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DD1538F931A35751C0A9659C8B63 Gee, that took all of 30 seconds to find owner...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaiynasha

Yes I believe that African Americans should get reparations and why do I think so:
<snipped>

4. African Americans are still blamed for the poverty and welfare of this country. Even though that is an understatement.

5. Fifty percent of African American males are in prison therefore still practicing the pre-conditional practices of the Masters


So that is my opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: McKwaig

thompsonx,

Since you chose to break down my post, I will attempt to answer each of your charges.

The war was fought for states rights.  Lincoln asserted that the goverment had preceeded the states, which only shows his irnorance, and desire for a Hamilto view of the USA. As for the right to own Slaves, Lincoln supported the original 13th Amendment, which would have given slavery constitutional protection.  This amendment was passed by a Congress consisting totall of Northern Senators and Representatives. 
Here is the original 13 amendment.  You will note that it was proposed before Lincoln was born.
://www.amendment-13.org/

There were not Southern Senators or Representatives in Wasington at the time, as all had returned to their various states.  After all, their states had seceeded, so they no longer felt that that were a paert of the USA.

As for your 25-50% owned slaves, where do you get this information.  I was taught in college by a Civil War historian, that only about 12% owned slaves, and approximately 5% owned more than 2.
You might want to look here
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=653

And while you say that most soldiers seldom know the real reasons they are fighting, from what I have read, most of the Southern soldeiers did know.  I invite you to peruse some of the articles in the archives of Lew Rockwell's site to see for yourself.  There are hundreds of colums there, with direct quotes from Southern soldiers, that appeared in newspapers during the war.

And yes, the Emancipation Proclamation did free slaves in states in secession.  As for how the Brittish felt concerning the war, I invite you to read, When In The Course Of Human Events, by Charles Adams.  This book uses only foreign news papers to show what Europe's view of the war was. 

As for Lincoln's Executive order, It is online.  Unfortunately, I have lost the link to it, but I assure you that it is true.  And yes, it does contradict the Emancipation Proclamation.  Just another example of Lincoln's character.
Not just Lincoln but all politicians talk out of both their ass and their mouth at the same time.

There were approximatel 600,000 slave owners, and approximately 200,000 of them were black.  As for a citation, that is a fact that was mentioned during a class I had in college, but I am sure that the information is online.
I looked but could not find it...I would be grateful for any help you could give me here.

And yes, there were several states in which a black person could only be a slave, and not a freeman.  But each of these states was above the Mason Dixon Line.  Illinios was one of them.

As for Samuel Maverick being the first slave holder, I am not sure, but I suggest you read the Politically Incorrect Guide to The South, by Clint Johnson.  I have loaned my copy out. so I cannot give you the first slave owner's name.  But this well researched book states that he was in fact a black man.

As for Alex Haley, you completely missed what I was saying.  PBS did a documentary that prooved that almost everything he wrote in Roots was a bald faced lie.  This was pointed out on the web site, VDare.  This program was aired in only a few markets because of the PC world.  And I fail to see what my statement had to do with the Fugitive Slave Laws.  And Yes Dred Scott happened. 
VDare is pretty much a white supremacist website. So its validity is a little shakey.
Fugitive slave laws were written so that runaway slaves could be captured and returned, which is contrary to your post. 

And if you had understood what I was saying, I meant that the slave traders rarely ventured far from the coast of Africa.
Your post seemed to indicate that white people did not venture far from the coast of the U.S.  I was simply pointing out the fallacy of that precept.

I did not say a single thing about the Cherokees.

And you ask, "What did really happen?"

I repeat what I stated earlier, do a little digging.  The information is out there, and because of the Internet, it is finally becoming available to a wide variety of people.
You are the one making the assertions consequently it is your responsibility to substantiate your position.

Perhaps you might be interested to read the Slave Narratives.  Read the actual words of those people who lived through slavery.  That is also available online.
Are you suggesting that those slaves would prefer slavery to freedom?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaiynasha

Do you know what reparations mean? Although I don't like to use wikipedia let's take a look at the definition.

"Reparations for slavery is a movement in the United States, which suggests that the government apologize to slave descendants for their hardships, and bestow on them reparations, whether it be in the form of money, land, or other goods."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika

joanus,
 
Here is the thing though. I don't beleive today's generation or even yesterdays should have to pay for the sins or crimes of our forefathers. It doesn't change history - in truth all it does is cause more segregation, more hate between the same tribes, same nation, same people.
 
Blessed Be,
Nika

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySur

I would like to point out that like most humans , I am an "ethnic hybrid"' (...Mutt).  I am a combination of many  races, religions ...and at least two creeds, (Choctaw and Chikasaw). So "IF" reparations are due, and especially if the government that sanctioned the injustice no longer exist, (suggesting mayhe the great Roman Empire fell to avoid this very issue), then the reparations could be paid by the ancestors of wrongdoers. Hypothetically, the next step is EVERYONE makes a list of EVERY group that has ever wronged any one of their thousands of ancestors, (including anchient wars, raids, genocides, and all other wrongdoings), but in so doing they are required to identify themselves as member of a specific group and leave themselves open to be sued by someone who claims your ancestorial group victimized their ancestorial group. In my specific case, that would mean that 1/32nd of myself DEMANDS the other 31/32nds of me leave their native land and go back to Europe. Once 31/32nds of me gets to Europe, then my other various fractional parts can sue the other fractional parts to get reparations of victimization caused my British, French, German, Roman, Egyptian, Ottoman and other emperialism. The net result would be an infinite number of lawsuits and inflamation of anchient hatreds and prejudices, including individuals hating part of themselves. Nearly everyone can find at least a few parts of their family tree that were victimized by some group.

Obviously, this is an ridiculously impossible situation, so I choose to focus on the present.

Life is unfair, ...suck it up Princess

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaiynasha

Yes I believe that African Americans should get reparations and why do I think so:

1. African American are the ones who were brought here against their will and was profited from by whites.

2. African Americans were made to lose their tribal name and take on a English one.

3. African Americans lost their language, culture, and therefore identity. Ask a African American the name of their tribe or where in Africa they came from- MOST will say they don't know.

4. African Americans are still blamed for the poverty and welfare of this country. Even though that is an understatement.

5. Fifty percent of African American males are in prison therefore still practicing the pre-conditional practices of the Masters

6. African Americans still have to deal with racism and discrimination but on an instititional basis. For example: John applies for a position that is of course EOE and calls to ask if the position is avalible. He is told yes and when he arrives for apply- they say, "The position has been filled."

7. Others received reparations such as Asians and the Jews.

So that is my opinion.