RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (Full Version)

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thompsonx -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 1:54:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Time for another [sm=applause.gif]

To paraphrase Hank Hill, ya mean I’m not allowed to think a man’s a jerk just because he’s black? What’s this country coming to?

Marc2b:
Your statement can only mean one of two things:
You failed sixth grade English.
or
You are a bigot.
Hank Hill never said that.  What Hank Hill said was "Just because someone is black, I am not allowed to think he is a jerk...what's this country coming to?"
thompson




thompsonx -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 2:03:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika

Fast reply:
 
As a native american woman who has for years tried to track my geneology, not for benifits but for the sake of knowing my family history. I have a personal issue with the idea of taking or giving reperations. I do not want to benifit off my ancestors blood and tears nor would I think any one else would. Nor will money change history - NOTHING can do that. All that can be done is that as a society we can learn from history and try not to make the same mistakes a second time.
 
Blessed be,
Nika

Nika:
I can respect your position but don't you find it more than a little presumptuous to speak for all native Americans?
thompson




GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 2:26:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Time for another [sm=applause.gif]

To paraphrase Hank Hill, ya mean I’m not allowed to think a man’s a jerk just because he’s black? What’s this country coming to?

Marc2b:
Your statement can only mean one of two things:
You failed sixth grade English.
or
You are a bigot.
Hank Hill never said that.  What Hank Hill said was "Just because someone is black, I am not allowed to think he is a jerk...what's this country coming to?"
thompson


"paraphrase" from Wiki: (only because it is much easier to copy and paste from that source)
 
A paraphrase (from the Greek paraphrasis) is a statement or remark explained in other words or another way, so as to simplify or clarify its meaning. It can be used as a replacement for a direct quotation when the original text is unavailable or under copyright restriction. A paraphrase can substitute a euphemism for a direct statement, in order to avoid offense. As with a quotation, a paraphrase is introduced by a verbum dicendi, or disclaimer.
 
Marc2B did state he was paraphrasing (that would be the disclaimer), as bolded and underscored above.  It was used as an additional example of My statement in post #68:

quote:

That means I also have the right to be pissed off at or dislike someone and not be accused of being a racist just because they are of color.

 
Therefore, in My opinion, this does not make Marc2B either a 6th grade English failure or a bigot.
 
I was hesitant to mix into this, but since it was originally a reply to My post, I felt I should. 
 
 




AquaticSub -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 2:30:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Nika:
I can respect your position but don't you find it more than a little presumptuous to speak for all native Americans?
thompson


Just curious - how would you decide whose opinion to respect?

There will be some who are all about getting paid for the suffering their ancestors went through. Then there are others, like her and me, who feeling it is just enslaving them and selling them off a second time. Whose opinion wins? Should it be put to a majority vote? Who gets to vote?




thompsonx -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 2:48:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Nika:
I can respect your position but don't you find it more than a little presumptuous to speak for all native Americans?
thompson


Just curious - how would you decide whose opinion to respect?

There will be some who are all about getting paid for the suffering their ancestors went through. Then there are others, like her and me, who feeling it is just enslaving them and selling them off a second time. Whose opinion wins? Should it be put to a majority vote? Who gets to vote?

AquaticSub:
I am not sure what your argument is.  You and Nika are entitled to your opinions and I respect your right to your opinion.  My point was and is that is more than a little presumptuous to speak for all Native Americans.  How about we let each person speak for themselves?
thompson




Alumbrado -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 2:48:33 PM)

quote:

Marc2B did state he was paraphrasing (that would be the disclaimer), as bolded and underscored above. 


You noticed that too, didja?  [:D]




AquaticSub -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 2:54:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

AquaticSub:
I am not sure what your argument is.  You and Nika are entitled to your opinions and I respect your right to your opinion.  My point was and is that is more than a little presumptuous to speak for all Native Americans.  How about we let each person speak for themselves?
thompson

'Course it is also presumptuous for one person to say "Yes we should all get money because they suffered". [;)]

Though seriously, it could be because I wasn't really making an argument. It had just occured to me that because not every person will agree on the issue, how do you decide what should be done? Which side do you ignore? Do you ignore the side that strongly feels people making money off the suffering of their people is selling them off a second time and give money to people, or do you ignore the side that feels strongly that back wages should be paid?

Either side will feel offended. The only thing I could possibly think of is that each person gets to back through their history and decide that money will not be made off of this person and that person (which will be tricky since some people share ancestors and an entire family may not agree on the issue) and others get to say "Yes, we want to paid for what this person and that person went through". Course that itself would take time and money so... *shrug* Probably just mental masturabation.

If I'm making any point here, it's that the issue really isn't simple. I was just curious as to how people think it should be done.




pinkme2 -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 2:55:00 PM)

To answer the OP's question/comment:

No one deserves reparations.  This world ain't fair, get used to it.




thompsonx -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 2:58:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Time for another [sm=applause.gif]

To paraphrase Hank Hill, ya mean I’m not allowed to think a man’s a jerk just because he’s black? What’s this country coming to?

Marc2b:
Your statement can only mean one of two things:
You failed sixth grade English.
or
You are a bigot.
Hank Hill never said that.  What Hank Hill said was "Just because someone is black, I am not allowed to think he is a jerk...what's this country coming to?"
thompson


"paraphrase" from Wiki: (only because it is much easier to copy and paste from that source)
 
A paraphrase (from the Greek paraphrasis) is a statement or remark explained in other words or another way, so as to simplify or clarify its meaning. It can be used as a replacement for a direct quotation when the original text is unavailable or under copyright restriction. A paraphrase can substitute a euphemism for a direct statement, in order to avoid offense. As with a quotation, a paraphrase is introduced by a verbum dicendi, or disclaimer.
 
Marc2B did state he was paraphrasing (that would be the disclaimer), as bolded and underscored above.  It was used as an additional example of My statement in post #68:

quote:

That means I also have the right to be pissed off at or dislike someone and not be accused of being a racist just because they are of color.

 
Therefore, in My opinion, this does not make Marc2B either a 6th grade English failure or a bigot.
 
I was hesitant to mix into this, but since it was originally a reply to My post, I felt I should. 
 
 

GoddesDustyGold:
It appears that either you also failed sixth grade english or you did not read what was posted.
The two statements are not equivalent.  What Marc2b posted means someone is being called a jerk because they are black the other statement means that someone is being called a jerk because they are a jerk and not because they happen to be black.
Just for the record I know that Marc2b is not a bigot and this is not the first time I have given him a bit of crap just in jest.
thompson




Phoenixandnika -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 3:09:48 PM)

thompsonx,
 
Please point out where I said my point of view or words were anything but MINE. in fact I clearly stated "I have personal issue".
 
Aquatic,

I agree and as I stated that is one of my major issues with reperation is it divides cultures even more, it causes people to make staatements like your not black enough or your not native american enough. I was taught - regardless of how much cherokee blood runs through my veins as long as I hold onto my anscetors ways I am Cherokee. Now some disagree, in my opinion I beleive this is largely due to reperation and such.
 

 
Blessed Be,
Nika




thompsonx -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 3:11:58 PM)

AquaticSub:
I have an acquaintance who is Nisei Japanese.  She and most of her family were interred during WWII while two of her older brothers were in the 442 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Regimental_Combat_Team_(United_States)
When the feds sent the reparation checks out she sent hers back, her sister kept hers.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  If reparations are paid to blacks some will take it and some wont.  But it is not for those who do not want it to tell those who do want it that they may not ask.
thompson




Phoenixandnika -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 3:15:55 PM)

Here is an off the wall question and perhaps I am wrong in my line of thinking but isn't reperation paid by the offending goverment. Thus wouldn't every tax payer including the ones being payed (assuming they are tax payers) be the ones who are  paying the reperation so in a sense are they not paying themselves?
 
Blessed Be,
Nika




AquaticSub -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 3:20:59 PM)

quote:


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  If reparations are paid to blacks some will take it and some wont.  But it is not for those who do not want it to tell those who do want it that they may not ask.
thompson


That depends. If your check includes payment for what my grandparents went through, I have every right to say if you should have it or not. It is not for those who do want it to deepen others pain by making money off the ancestors of those who don't. If the checks are determined solely by your specific ancestors, then no it's not anyone's place but yours to decide if you keep it.




GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 4:55:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Time for another [sm=applause.gif]

To paraphrase Hank Hill, ya mean I’m not allowed to think a man’s a jerk just because he’s black? What’s this country coming to?

Marc2b:
Your statement can only mean one of two things:
You failed sixth grade English.
or
You are a bigot.
Hank Hill never said that.  What Hank Hill said was "Just because someone is black, I am not allowed to think he is a jerk...what's this country coming to?"
thompson


"paraphrase" from Wiki: (only because it is much easier to copy and paste from that source)
 
A paraphrase (from the Greek paraphrasis) is a statement or remark explained in other words or another way, so as to simplify or clarify its meaning. It can be used as a replacement for a direct quotation when the original text is unavailable or under copyright restriction. A paraphrase can substitute a euphemism for a direct statement, in order to avoid offense. As with a quotation, a paraphrase is introduced by a verbum dicendi, or disclaimer.
 
Marc2B did state he was paraphrasing (that would be the disclaimer), as bolded and underscored above.  It was used as an additional example of My statement in post #68:

quote:

That means I also have the right to be pissed off at or dislike someone and not be accused of being a racist just because they are of color.

 
Therefore, in My opinion, this does not make Marc2B either a 6th grade English failure or a bigot.
 
I was hesitant to mix into this, but since it was originally a reply to My post, I felt I should. 
 
 

GoddesDustyGold:
It appears that either you also failed sixth grade english or you did not read what was posted.
The two statements are not equivalent.  What Marc2b posted means someone is being called a jerk because they are black the other statement means that someone is being called a jerk because they are a jerk and not because they happen to be black.
Just for the record I know that Marc2b is not a bigot and this is not the first time I have given him a bit of crap just in jest.
thompson


Picky, picky, picky...Frankly I didn't pay attention to the positioning of the words until you specifically pointed it out, as I understood the meaning and intent, especially given the context of the conversation (postings).  I understand what you mean, but I also immediately understood Marc2B's meaning and intent.  I am sure most everyone else who read it also understood.  And it was not meant to be offensive or bigoted.  Even though in jest, these are the sorts of comments (yours, that is) that cause people to either walk on eggs (must be PC!) or fire back.  It seems you are making My case of leaving the differences alone.    As I see it, you are keeping this alive by taking words obviously meant in one way, and rabble rousing with insult and challenge. 
Is there a reason you need to be so personally insulting to people?  There are more gracious ways to point out a simple error, if it bothers you so much.  And certainly a better explanation with some respect and humor would be more welcome than an immediate insult about failing English or being a bigot.  
I noticed that McKwaig was gracious in explaining your error about the coastlines.  I saw that misunderstanding on your part immediately and to this moment I don't get how you thought he was talking about the Indians when it was obvious he was referring to the African Coast.  The point is he didn't insult you...he simply explained. 
Debate is a good thing.  When it deteriorates into insults, I'm outta here. 
*Sigh*




Marc2b -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 4:57:45 PM)

quote:

noone deserves reparations because the people who are alive NOW are not the ones who were abused, and the people who are alive NOW are not the ones who commited the abuse. simple as that. 7+ generations later, what right do you really have to demand money from people whos ANCESTORS did something that was culturally accepted at the time(owning slaves)? yes, it was wrong, sorry for your ANCESTORS' pain, but you are not the one that suffered in any way, shape or form, and the people who you demand reparations from are not the peopel who made your relatives suffer.

personally, i dont think jews OR blacks should get anything at this point. when it was still fresh, when it would have really made some sort of difference to the family that it immediately affected, then that would be different, but asking for money decades and centures after the fact is just plain wrong. the same can be said for holding grudges against those people who historically abused your people. im jewish, and i have NOTHING against germans, what so ever. thats not to say that i dont have something against antisemites, i will always hate them because they will always hate me, BUT, just because someone's past relatives were antisemaites does not mean that they themselves are. i believe everyone group that was abused should take this stand; who cares what their RELATIVES did to you, you do not blaim the great grandson for what the great grandfather might have done to someone in your family that has long been dead. again, if the people were still alive, then thats a completely different argument, but youre asking specifically about reparations for things that have happened in the past. if it happened in the past, let it stay in the past.


Are you sure that this was meant to be in reply to me? If you go back and read my posts it should be clear that I’m with you on this one. I am against reparations in which both the victims and the perpetrators are all dead.




thompsonx -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 5:17:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika
I do not want to benifit off my ancestors blood and tears nor would I think any one else would. 
 
Blessed be,
Nika

Nika:
It is the "nor would I think anyone else would." part that I think is presumptuous.
thompson




Marc2b -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 5:22:13 PM)

quote:

Picky, picky, picky...Frankly I didn't pay attention to the positioning of the words until you specifically pointed it out, as I understood the meaning and intent, especially given the context of the conversation (postings). I understand what you mean, but I also immediately understood Marc2B's meaning and intent. I am sure most everyone else who read it also understood. And it was not meant to be offensive or bigoted. Even though in jest, these are the sorts of comments (yours, that is) that cause people to either walk on eggs (must be PC!) or fire back. It seems you are making My case of leaving the differences alone. As I see it, you are keeping this alive by taking words obviously meant in one way, and rabble rousing with insult and challenge.
Is there a reason you need to be so personally insulting to people? There are more gracious ways to point out a simple error, if it bothers you so much. And certainly a better explanation with some respect and humor would be more welcome than an immediate insult about failing English or being a bigot.
I noticed that McKwaig was gracious in explaining your error about the coastlines. I saw that misunderstanding on your part immediately and to this moment I don't get how you thought he was talking about the Indians when it was obvious he was referring to the African Coast. The point is he didn't insult you...he simply explained.
Debate is a good thing. When it deteriorates into insults, I'm outta here.
*Sigh*


Geez, ya take a day off an look at the ruckus you cause with just a few words. I’ve been kind of busy (dear ol’ mom is moving into a new house and I drive a pick-up truck – do the math) which Is why I’ve been only popping in to see what’s up and cheering others on. Thank you GoddessDustyGold for watching my back.

To be fair, I can see how the sentence could be misread. This kind of misunderstanding can occur with the written word because we lack vocal tones, facial expressions, etc., to add depth and meaning to our words. It would have been more clear if I had written it as ‘ya mean I’m not allowed to think a man’s a jerk if he’s black? Still, given the context of the debate you are right that most people will discern the meaning I intended.

As thompson himself admits, he did understand my meaning and was tossing out a tidbit to see if I would bite. There is this thing you have to understand about thompson and me: he is a committed socialist and I am a committed anti-socialist and we both seem to have this need to butt heads once in a while. Each of us occasionally tosses out tidbits to see if the other will bite. If I’m feeling game, I bite. If I’m too busy with life or just not in the mood for staying up to 2am, pounding on the keyboard, for several nights in a row, I don’t bite. I presume the same for him.




TakenPet -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/24/2007 10:58:31 PM)

You know what, people are people and we have been mean or nasty to eachother at some point.  In almost every case we have all been affected by some form of slavery or forced encampment ect.  I mean if you are going to make reparations then everyone gets it, so the Blacks, the Jewish, those who are decendants of the witches crucified at the Witch Trials, Japanese ... the list goes on ... if we are truly talking about making ammends with money we would go broke becuase everyone here woudl be owed money for a decendant who was forced into something that was not of their own partaking.
Just my 2 cents




Phoenixandnika -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/25/2007 5:17:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika
I do not want to benifit off my ancestors blood and tears nor would I think any one else would. 
 
Blessed be,
Nika

Nika:
It is the "nor would I think anyone else would." part that I think is presumptuous.
thompson


Again I clearly state "I think" which signifies my thoughts and opinion because it after all  it is an an "I" statement. If my thoughts and opinions are presumtuous would yours not be as well?
 
Blessed Be,
Nika





thompsonx -> RE: Reparations who deserves it more? (10/25/2007 5:34:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika
I do not want to benifit off my ancestors blood and tears nor would I think any one else would. 
 
Blessed be,
Nika

Nika:
It is the "nor would I think anyone else would." part that I think is presumptuous.
thompson


Again I clearly state "I think" which signifies my thoughts and opinion because it after all  it is an an "I" statement. If my thoughts and opinions are presumptuous would yours not be as well?
 
Blessed Be,
Nika



Nika:
When you choose to think for someone else that is called being presumptuous.  In other words you are presuming what someone else thinks.  Since there is no way you could actually know what everyone else thinks your statement is a presumption.  The fact that it is an "I" statement is the very thing that makes it a presumption.  You are presuming to know what someone else thinks.
thompson




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