RE: Reperations who deserves it more?

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Level -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 12:30:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Funny thing is though,the same folks crying about reparations to blacks,also want to take away the tax-free status of Native Americans living on resorvations,and force them to integrate into American society. After breaking every treaty we made with them,now we want to to fuck them some more. Mighty white of us... How do you know that? Did you take a survey? [X(]

Owner59 -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 12:32:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Funny thing is though,the same folks crying about reparations to blacks,also want to take away the tax-free status of Native Americans living on resorvations,and force them to integrate into American society. After breaking every treaty we made with them,now we want to to fuck them some more. Mighty white of us... How do you know that? Did you take a survey? [X(] Lol. It`s been a right-wing talking point,for years. Nuff said.

NorthernGent -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 12:44:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 I do! I do! How about some money from those English Bastards who oppressed my people, the Irish? C'mon, Lady E, Seeks, NG, pony up! 'City I live in, Popeye, every other person is called O'Neill or Mick.......the Irish are doing alright on the back of England, believe me.....let's just say that millions of Irish have been given a chance to earn a living in England. Thing is: English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh share a culture and a history......maybe those in other parts of the world don't understand this, especially those seeking an identity......the British establishment are an altogether different breed. I think the moderators are due some hefty reparations on the basis that they have to read/monitor these political threads. See, problem is .....the English give the world: 1) A language. 2) Team games. 3) Common law. 4) A banking system. 5) Notions of individual liberty. 6) Industrialisation. etc, etc..... Talk about biting the hand that feeds you, when you come 'round asking for money.

astarri -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 12:55:08 PM)
lol and dont forget christianity and laws of private property and the almighty gun!! i think it happened a long time ago and instead of throwing money today we need to focus on closing the social class gap... money isnt the answer

Owner59 -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 1:08:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: astarri lol and dont forget christianity and laws of private property and the almighty gun!! i think it happened a long time ago and instead of throwing money today we need to focus on closing the social class gap... money isnt the answer closing the social class gap Great point. How? What can be done,pro-actively?

astarri -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 1:17:42 PM)
if i knew that...i would certainly run for government. I believe that we need to inspire hope for starters. I live in canada where the native candians have the lowest social class of all and yet throwing money towards them has not proved beneficial. I live not far from a reserve where they get large amounts of money for oil rights and this money is often eaten up by things which do not advance them. I have noticed a serious gap in their knowledge of their own heritage and i think that is an important step. Canada is not a melting pot however...we consider ourselves a mosaic of cultures. I do not know how to instill pride .. Perhaps it can start in schools.

texancutie -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 1:45:44 PM)
Actually, I do know of one provision that was honored and is still being honored. But it is unique to one state in the United States. I went to college the first time on the Michigan Indian Tuition Waiver. Michigan is the only state that I am aware of that helps out Native college students in this way. I believe that one of our treaties stated we would give up land in return for education and some other things. The other things were not honored, but at least this was. I am totally screwed now that I am going back to college in January, and I live in Texas. But it's ok, I can afford going this time on my own. And others that need it financially will get the Waiver...so it's all good. Not everyone that claims they are Native gets the Waiver in Michigan. You have to meet a minumum blood quantum that is verifiable by your tribe. That way it keeps it from being abused by non-Natives.

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 2:42:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver As for reparations in general, that is going to be difficult. You can't pay the victims as they are dead. Agree. quote: Though my guess is that ongoing discrimination is keeping the debate alive. Disagree... My belief is that the ongoing debate is keeping discrimination alive. W All in all, I think it is time everybody gets over it. GoddesDustyGold: It appears that you are saying that discrimination no longer exists in the U.S. If that is your position I would suggest that you get and read a copy of Black Like Me by John Griffin ISBN 0451192036. It is a story about how a journalist who chemically changed his skin color and lived as a black man for a while. If you truly believe that discrimination does not exist read the book and follow the directions and become black for a while and see how pleasant it really is to be black in amerika. thompson Really? It appears that I am saying this? Wow! Amazing! I usually stay out of these things for this exact reason! well, thompson, I will quote you right back... (your quote to aquaticsub) quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx It appears that you have failed to actually read what I posted. I completely fail to see where I possibly even implied that discrimination no longer exists in this country (and/or worldwide, for that matter). Whereas meatcelaver states he believes that ongoing discrimination is keeping the debate alive, I simply differ by stating that I believe that the constant debate fosters the existing discrimination. Ya see, the way I see it, it starts with Me. If I fail to acknowledge or even see that there is any difference based upon skin color, then I figure I am doing okay. *That means I also have the right to be pissed off at or dislike someone and not be accused of being a racist just because they are of color.* No special favors with Me...I base My feelings on people, not race. By the way, read the book, long ago, enjoyed it, a good read, but it did nothing to change My personal views. Because I was already okay with it. And people haranguing Me or saying I am not doing enough just plain old gets Me mad. The debate: stop pointing out the differences on both sides, stop specifiying crap when it it isn't necessary, and maybe, just maybe mind you, people will stop thinking there are differences. Keep the differences alive, and discimination will continue to be fostered. I have no guilt and I cannot and will not be responsible for things that happened many generations ago. What is your guilt, thompson? This is only My opinion, of course. Last I heard, I was entitled... Sorry for the off topic, folks...back to the "reparations" thing. Come to think of it, I guess it isn't so off topic, since it always comes down to this, doesn't it? Yeah, I never was PC... *Edited to add: I really get annoyed with people who think it is cute to spell America with a lower case "a" and a "k"

thompsonx -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 4:21:36 PM)
GoddessDustyGold: If I have misinterpreted your position I apologize. I would disagree that ongoing discussion fosters discrimination as opposed to the opposite...ongoing discrimination fosters debate. If it did not exist then there would be no debate. I agree with you in your personal decision to stop bigotry with the "self" and let it work outward from there. America is the country I wore a uniform for and took hostile fire to protect...amerika is that which makes a mockery of what I did. thompson

Marc2b -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 5:42:48 PM)
quote: Funny thing is though,the same folks crying about reparations to blacks,also want to take away the tax-free status of Native Americans living on resorvations,and force them to integrate into American society. After breaking every treaty we made with them,now we want to to fuck them some more. Not all of us. I am one hundred percent against the concept of paying decedent of slaves money for their ancestor’s enslavement (another [sm=applause.gif] to aquaticsub – you took front and center on this one and have been handling it beautifully). I am also one hundred percent in favor of abiding by treaties with Native Americans. It’s a huge issue around these parts. I live fifteen minutes from a Reservation where they sell tax free cigarettes and gas as well as many other items. It pisses off the local business community something fierce and the New York State Government is none to happy about it either. There are all sorts of law suits going both ways. I’m rooting for the Natives Americans for one simple reason – New York’s treaty with them says "no taxes shall be collected on Indian lands." Simple enough.

popeye1250 -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 5:47:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: texancutie Actually, I do know of one provision that was honored and is still being honored. But it is unique to one state in the United States. I went to college the first time on the Michigan Indian Tuition Waiver. Michigan is the only state that I am aware of that helps out Native college students in this way. I believe that one of our treaties stated we would give up land in return for education and some other things. The other things were not honored, but at least this was. I am totally screwed now that I am going back to college in January, and I live in Texas. But it's ok, I can afford going this time on my own. And others that need it financially will get the Waiver...so it's all good. Not everyone that claims they are Native gets the Waiver in Michigan. You have to meet a minumum blood quantum that is verifiable by your tribe. That way it keeps it from being abused by non-Natives. Texancutie, so you mean to say that Perfesser Ward "TONTO" Churchill wouldn't qualify?

luckydog1 -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 5:47:28 PM)
In the Davis v Schwatzaneger Election campaign in California, taxing Indian tribes was a major issue. Davis the Democrat wanted to start taxing them. Who do you think owner wanted to win? Just owner trying to pass off partisan falsehoods again. No real surprise there. So owner exactly who do you want to pay reperations to? all blacks? People who can prove they are slave descended? Or left wing political groups?

Kaiynasha -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 5:52:09 PM)
Yes I believe that African Americans should get reparations and why do I think so: 1. African American are the ones who were brought here against their will and was profited from by whites. 2. African Americans were made to lose their tribal name and take on a English one. 3. African Americans lost their language, culture, and therefore identity. Ask a African American the name of their tribe or where in Africa they came from- MOST will say they don't know. 4. African Americans are still blamed for the poverty and welfare of this country. Even though that is an understatement. 5. Fifty percent of African American males are in prison therefore still practicing the pre-conditional practices of the Masters 6. African Americans still have to deal with racism and discrimination but on an instititional basis. For example: John applies for a position that is of course EOE and calls to ask if the position is avalible. He is told yes and when he arrives for apply- they say, "The position has been filled." 7. Others received reparations such as Asians and the Jews. So that is my opinion.

Owner59 -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 6:00:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 In the Davis v Schwatzaneger Election campaign in California, taxing Indian tribes was a major issue. Davis the Democrat wanted to start taxing them. Who do you think owner wanted to win? Just owner trying to pass off partisan falsehoods again. No real surprise there. So owner exactly who do you want to pay reperations to? all blacks? People who can prove they are slave descended? Or left wing political groups? I don`t believe that. Do you have a link to a news story,saying that Davis wanted to tax the tribes?

Marc2b -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 6:06:23 PM)
quote: I completely fail to see where I possibly even implied that discrimination no longer exists in this country (and/or worldwide, for that matter). Whereas meatcelaver states he believes that ongoing discrimination is keeping the debate alive, I simply differ by stating that I believe that the constant debate fosters the existing discrimination. Ya see, the way I see it, it starts with Me. If I fail to acknowledge or even see that there is any difference based upon skin color, then I figure I am doing okay. *That means I also have the right to be pissed off at or dislike someone and not be accused of being a racist just because they are of color.* No special favors with Me...I base My feelings on people, not race. By the way, read the book, long ago, enjoyed it, a good read, but it did nothing to change My personal views. Because I was already okay with it. And people haranguing Me or saying I am not doing enough just plain old gets Me mad. The debate: stop pointing out the differences on both sides, stop specifiying crap when it it isn't necessary, and maybe, just maybe mind you, people will stop thinking there are differences. Keep the differences alive, and discimination will continue to be fostered. I have no guilt and I cannot and will not be responsible for things that happened many generations ago. What is your guilt, thompson? This is only My opinion, of course. Last I heard, I was entitled... Sorry for the off topic, folks...back to the "reparations" thing. Come to think of it, I guess it isn't so off topic, since it always comes down to this, doesn't it? Yeah, I never was PC... Time for another [sm=applause.gif] To paraphrase Hank Hill, ya mean I’m not allowed to think a man’s a jerk just because he’s black? What’s this country coming to? A double [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif] for this: quote: *Edited to add: I really get annoyed with people who think it is cute to spell America with a lower case "a" and a "k"

McKwaig -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 6:25:01 PM)
Does anyone really believe the War for Southern Independance (Mistakenly called the Civil War) was fought to end slavery? The winning side in any war, writes the history books, and with the federal government controlling the schools, it is easy to see how this myth has been perpetuated. Only a small percentage of Southerners owned slaves, and I find it somewhat difficult to believe that most of the men who fought for the Confederacy did so to perpetuate something that did not affect them. Slavery did not become an issue until two years into the war, and it is a fact that the Emancipation Proclimation ONLY freed slaves in states in secession. And in occupied territories, slavery was still permitted. Lincoln was a true politican. He said what each person wanted to hear, and this is evident when the states of Georgia, South Carolina and Florida were captured. The commanding general stated that these states were under Martial law, and slavery was incompattible with this concept, therefor all slaves in those states were free. Lincoln wrote an executive order stating that NO ONE, not even the President could free the slaves, and thus they were still considered slaves. Is anyone aware that 1/3 of the slave owners were black? Or, that the very first slave owner in the colonies was a black man? Many black slave owners were themselves former slaves who had bought their freedom and then purchased slaves. As for the myth perpetuated by Alex Haley, in Roots, very few of the slaves transported to this country were chased down and captured. Most were actually POWs and were sold. It is a well documented fact that few whites ever ventured far from the coast line, because many that did, did not live to tell about what they saw. All it takes is a little digging to find out what really happened. As for repeartions, they were paid for with the blood of over 600,000 men, fully 1/5 of the adult polulation of the USA at that time!

JackM1 -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 6:25:39 PM)
noone deserves reparations because the people who are alive NOW are not the ones who were abused, and the people who are alive NOW are not the ones who commited the abuse. simple as that. 7+ generations later, what right do you really have to demand money from people whos ANCESTORS did something that was culturally accepted at the time(owning slaves)? yes, it was wrong, sorry for your ANCESTORS' pain, but you are not the one that suffered in any way, shape or form, and the people who you demand reparations from are not the peopel who made your relatives suffer. personally, i dont think jews OR blacks should get anything at this point. when it was still fresh, when it would have really made some sort of difference to the family that it immediately affected, then that would be different, but asking for money decades and centures after the fact is just plain wrong. the same can be said for holding grudges against those people who historically abused your people. im jewish, and i have NOTHING against germans, what so ever. thats not to say that i dont have something against antisemites, i will always hate them because they will always hate me, BUT, just because someone's past relatives were antisemaites does not mean that they themselves are. i believe everyone group that was abused should take this stand; who cares what their RELATIVES did to you, you do not blaim the great grandson for what the great grandfather might have done to someone in your family that has long been dead. again, if the people were still alive, then thats a completely different argument, but youre asking specifically about reparations for things that have happened in the past. if it happened in the past, let it stay in the past.

Kaiynasha -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 6:37:16 PM)
Do you know what reparations mean? Although I don't like to use wikipedia let's take a look at the definition. "Reparations for slavery is a movement in the United States, which suggests that the government apologize to slave descendants for their hardships, and bestow on them reparations, whether it be in the form of money, land, or other goods." and "In 1865, after the Confederate States of America were defeated in the American Civil War, General William Tecumseh Sherman issued Special Field Orders, No. 15 that set aside tracts of land in the sea islands and around Charleston, South Carolina for the exclusive use of black people who had been enslaved. Around 40,000 freed slaves were settled on 400,000 acres (1,600 km²) in Georgia and South Carolina. However, President Andrew Johnson reversed the order after Lincoln was killed and the land was returned to its previous owners. In 1867, Thaddeus Stevens sponsored a bill for the redistribution of land to African Americans, but it was not passed." The following comes from Marie Roberts, " "During the centuries of the Atlantic slave trade, Africa was denuded of tens of millions of its ablest people, a massive pillage from which Africa is yet to recover. During the century-long period of colonial exploitation that followed, Africa saw its theretofore viable social, political, economic, and agricultural systems destroyed by the colonizing powers of Western Europe. The magnitude of this long-running multidimensional human rights crime continues to define not only the crushing dilemmas of contemporary Africa but the here-and-now burdens borne by the scattered descendants of her sold-off issue as well." Just some information for those who wish to be informed. So reparation is more than money and blaming. It is about what was stolen and owed to African Americans. References: Roberts. M., (2000). The question of reparations to African Americans. Retrieved October 23rd, 2007 from: http://www.exodusnews.com/editorials/editorial-077.htm Wikipedia. (2007). Reparation of slavey. Retrieved Octover 23rd, 2007 from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery

luckydog1 -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 6:43:42 PM)
California Looks to Casinos for Revenue By JOHN M. BRODER AND CHARLIE LEDUFF Published: February 2, 2003 Trying to close a $34 billion budget deficit, Gov. Gray Davis has cast a covetous eye on a gushing revenue stream just beyond his reach: the billions pouring into California's Indian reservations, where slot machines and blackjack have made casino gambling the fastest-growing industry in the state. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DD1538F931A35751C0A9659C8B63 Gee, that took all of 30 seconds to find owner...

Owner59 -> RE: Reperations who deserves it more? (10/23/2007 6:50:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: McKwaig Does anyone really believe the War for Southern Independance (Mistakenly called the Civil War) was fought to end slavery? The winning side in any war, writes the history books, and with the federal government controlling the schools, it is easy to see how this myth has been perpetuated. Only a small percentage of Southerners owned slaves, and I find it somewhat difficult to believe that most of the men who fought for the Confederacy did so to perpetuate something that did not affect them. Slavery did not become an issue until two years into the war, and it is a fact that the Emancipation Proclimation ONLY freed slaves in states in secession. And in occupied territories, slavery was still permitted. Lincoln was a true politican. He said what each person wanted to hear, and this is evident when the states of Georgia, South Carolina and Florida were captured. The commanding general stated that these states were under Martial law, and slavery was incompattible with this concept, therefor all slaves in those states were free. Lincoln wrote an executive order stating that NO ONE, not even the President could free the slaves, and thus they were still considered slaves. Is anyone aware that 1/3 of the slave owners were black? Or, that the very first slave owner in the colonies was a black man? Many black slave owners were themselves former slaves who had bought their freedom and then purchased slaves. As for the myth perpetuated by Alex Haley, in Roots, very few of the slaves transported to this country were chased down and captured. Most were actually POWs and were sold. It is a well documented fact that few whites ever ventured far from the coast line, because many that did, did not live to tell about what they saw. All it takes is a little digging to find out what really happened. As for repeartions, they were paid for with the blood of over 600,000 men, fully 1/5 of the adult polulation of the USA at that time! And what about all the crap that followed the civil war? Jim Crow laws,lynching,the KKK,and the CCC?The poll tax,segregation,zero money ,or less money for black schools,red-lining and discrimination. I guess all that doesn`t matter?

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