Semantics and the One True Way... (Full Version)

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sweetNsmartBBW -> Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 9:59:41 AM)

Hi all....have seen several posts lately in other threads that prompted me to create this one.  Many here seem quick to proclaim others as fake or unintelligent because they are not being logical, or because they are not able to "get it"; "it" in most instances being another person's perspective or belief on something.  There have been many comments about "The One True Way" club...which has me thinking...

Is there not really only one true way?  Now, don't pounce yet- the caveat being, one true way for ~each~ of us?  Which would  mean that there are as many potential "true ways" on Collarme.com as there are people registered here?   While some are more understanding, or more receptive, to the way others see things- and some are a lot more tolerant of the ways others live; is not the true way for any individual ~their~ way? 

The reason I bring this up is that, sometimes when we spout off about another person not being able to see reason, or logic- it's not that their logic is flawed (which seems to be the assumption) as much as it's that it has a different origin and development from our own.  After all, when terms like 'slave' and 'submissive' are no longer simply definitions, when they are all tied up with who a person is, and the words themselves take on emotional importance (in addition to individually defined meanings) it's very easy to disreagrd the views of people who see things differently- and yet, is it not in diversity that we learn and grow?     

I know the "true way" for me has evolved immensely over the years.  It's nowhere near where I started out- and I suspect it's still far from being where it will ultimately end up.  Just something I try to keep in perspective when talking to others.  I'd love to hear others thoughts on this...

Thanks,
sNs        



toservez -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 10:07:04 AM)

Stating my way is and my beliefs/desires are entirely different then someone spouting absolutes and judging people based on mine.

My problem in this area for the most part is not the expressing of a person’s way but the judging themselves right and others wrong. To not be considerate or intelligent to grasp different strokes for different folks, so my way is a far different thing then “one true way” and very easily communicated with the words and tone of a message.

I also think there needs to be a difference between this is how I live and the dynamics and statements made that cover entire population. For example it is my way to punish for this and entirely not about my way to infer for instance a submissive is naturally weak and naïve and needs a dominant to be healthy and happy in life.



Rover -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 10:23:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetNsmartBBW

I know the "true way" for me has evolved immensely over the years.  It's nowhere near where I started out- and I suspect it's still far from being where it will ultimately end up. 


Doesn't that rather negate the premise that there is a "one true way" for each of us, individually?  After all, if there were "one true way" for you then it could not evolve or else it was neither "one" (as in singular), nor "true" (as in accurate).
 
John



bipolarber -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 10:36:34 AM)

Rover's right. You've created a word paradox. All you can really say is, "I've found the way that works for me."

There are as many different "ways" as there are individual people.

I do agree with you on one point, however, I do get tired of the many, many folk on here who seem to think their "philosophy" is inately superior to everyone else. It's known in some circles as MKIOKYIN. "My Kink Is OK, Yours Is Not." If you want to see a great example of it, click on over to the Gorean section and read how they slam folks who are BDSM.



RRafe -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 10:46:21 AM)

The way that you enjoy simply is.

It only becomes "twue" when you say that it's that way for anyone else-but you.



MadRabbit -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 10:48:37 AM)

Unfortanely, I am going to have to kind of turn this question around back at you.

If the Collarme.com Politically Correct Slogan of "All ways have to be accepted and no way is wrong" was, in fact, an absolute truth and applied to reality, then shouldnt all relationships be successful and long term and shouldnt no submissives or slaves ever suffer any abuse or harm?

Unfortanely, regardless of how much we want to salute and hold hands in this naive optimism, relationships do, in fact, fail and people do get harmed and abused so the pragmatic reality is there is, in fact, wrong ways to do things and ways that come loaded with negative consequences.

To me, the slogan of "No One True Way" means one has to acknowledge the fact that there is multiple ways to do things in WIITWD. However, just because there is no One True Way doesnt automatically equate that every single way proposed here by Jimmy the 18 year old Internet Monkey can be carried out or executed without negative consequences.

On this theortical forum of logical discussion, if you want your way to be accepted and understood, then, in my eyes, you are going to have to submit some kind of reason, logic, and substance behind the merits of that way.

And...amazingly enough....people are going to disagree or even not believe you...as if somehow we should take everything written here as what is actually going on in real time.

In my opinion, open mindness doesnt equate to everyone having to agree. It is reading the information, thinking about the logic, and making an opinion based on what is written as opposed to making the opinion before words are even exchanged.

If the "No One True Way slogan" snuffs out people saying "No, I dont buy that and I think it can be incredibly harmful or negative" when some anonymous Internet person logs on and says "This is how I do things", then knowledge and the discovery of truth have seriously taken a huge blow.

However, I, personally can do without the generalizations made by negative assumption and the "Its just stupid" type opinions that dont have any substance to them.



Dnomyar -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 10:52:31 AM)

I think that toservez hit it on the nose. People spout absolutes. There are no absolutes here.



RRafe -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 10:55:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

I think that toservez hit it on the nose. People spout absolutes. There are no absolutes here.


Any relationship is going to change on a day to day basis-rigidity is death.

Probably the biggest reason that most D/s relationships go south so quickly. And why I refuse to buy into a dynamic I see as doomed to failure.



MadRabbit -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 11:06:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Probably the biggest reason that most D/s relationships go south so quickly. And why I refuse to buy into a dynamic I see as doomed to failure.


One True Wayer!!!!

Get the feathers and tar ready



sweetNsmartBBW -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 11:49:00 AM)

*S*  Thanks folks...exactly what I was looking for...I appreciate the time and thought put into the posts.  Yep...I did indeed create a word paradox; not exactly intentionally *L* (although I might like to claim it was). 

"I think that toservez hit it on the nose. People spout absolutes. There are no absolutes here."

That's actually what got me on this particular train of thought (which I'm not sure I accurately was able to communicate in my original post).  I'd seen so much bashing of people that, at least on the surface, seemed to come from another individual's belief that their belief ~was~ an absolute.  Which was inevitibly answered by another person that came back and followed up with their own absolute truth that was in complete opposition to it.

I happen to try hard to see all sides of an argument.  Not saying I agree with all sides (or even any of them at times).  Yet, I love the exchange of ideas and philosophies; and while I often disagree with something on a personal level, can more often than not at least come to terms with what the other person is saying as it relates to them.  Some of those posts are actually the ones I have learned the most from...



colouredin -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 11:53:30 AM)

I know i change all the time, but when i hold an opinion for however long i hold it that for me is my way. I am mature enough to realise that my views will change for many differant ways, but most of that is experiance. I wrote a post on another site about the fact that i get lots of mails telling me why im wrong in my ideas. That i dont like, if someone asks my opinion then i will happily (somtimes overly so) give it but i wouldnt mail someone to tell them i dont agree with the way that they live their lives.

I know that people have disagreed with your use of the term your way, but i totally see what your saying. I always sign post myself as an opinionated and i am and very very stubborn. So yeah the way i do things now is my way, but it will change :D



MadRabbit -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 12:05:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

Stating my way is and my beliefs/desires are entirely different then someone spouting absolutes and judging people based on mine.

My problem in this area for the most part is not the expressing of a person’s way but the judging themselves right and others wrong. To not be considerate or intelligent to grasp different strokes for different folks, so my way is a far different thing then “one true way” and very easily communicated with the words and tone of a message.

I also think there needs to be a difference between this is how I live and the dynamics and statements made that cover entire population. For example it is my way to punish for this and entirely not about my way to infer for instance a submissive is naturally weak and naïve and needs a dominant to be healthy and happy in life.



I find one of the other huge problems here is when people accuse others of speaking in absolutes or of being overly judgemental of the other person when they are simply judging the activity.

Judging isnt a bad thing in my book and very much necessary because without judgement, we cannot determine value and without determining value we cannot form an opinion.

Just because I say "I find walking into a chainsaw to be wrong and a bad idea that doesnt deserve any consideration in logic and rationality" doesnt mean that I am judging people who are walking into chainsaws.

I dont see whats wrong with stating... "It is my opinion that a slave who will literally do "anything" for a Master is the worst slave to own because there is things I can tell her to do that would make me not worth serving." 

Thats my value judgement. That is my personal philosophy. Its solely my opinion. I'm sorry if you find yourself in the criteria of that judgement, but should I change how I want things in my little part of Idaho because you are someone I find negative value in? Perhaps I should lie for the sake of making everyone feel good about themselves?

When I say "I think you are nuts for doing this", it doesnt equate to a harsh judgemental opinion of the other person. It simply means I think you are doing something that I find to be nuts.

Maybe they will go..."Holy shit! That was nuts! What was I thinking?"

Edited to Add :

I think things would go a lot smoother if people would attempt at writings like...

"In my opinion..."
"I think..."
"Based on the articles I've read, this is how I understand it"
"Personally, I dont like..."
"In my relationships and own experiences with other M/S couples, I've never seen this..."

Unfortanely, some people dont seem to be happy with that. They want everyone to agree or give them a pat on the back for whatever they are doing or get angry simply because their opinion isnt the popular one.



toservez -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 12:47:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I think things would go a lot smoother if people would attempt at writings like... "In my opinion..." "I think..." "Based on the articles I've read, this is how I understand it" "Personally, I dont like..." "In my relationships and own experiences with other M/S couples, I've never seen this..." Unfortanely, some people dont seem to be happy with that. They want everyone to agree or give them a pat on the back for whatever they are doing or get angry simply because their opinion isnt the popular one.


Seen this in other threads and in particular one about a month ago, personally I agree with this but I know others who believe everything typed is “opinion” based so there really is no need for qualifiers.

To me there are two issues/problems:

1) People do not like to be flamed, disagreed with or told they are wrong in anyway. Certainly when people go with gross generalizations or “one true way” comments they get what they deserved and even I will slam a person and I try most of the time to be positive but judging intolerance is a pet peeve of mine. So many times people who do qualifiers are still not respecting and judging others but think the qualifier raises them above being slammed back. That is not the case, it is the qualifier and what is written besides the qualifier. To write “In my opinion anyone who face slaps someone should be thrown in jail” is no different then “Anyone who face slaps should be thrown in jail.” But quite different if phrased “I have issues with face slapping and would not want to be with or be around people who partake in it as I think it is a slippery slope”.

2) This thread and the one on spelling today the same thing always come to mind. This is a written medium and writing skills may not be mandatory which I would agree one hundred percent. At the same time I am not going to play lowest common denominator and for people who cannot communicate what they are trying to communicate because of not caring or trying to write it I am not going to give the benefit of the doubt. You cannot want to be taken seriously on one level but not be taken seriously on another. Communicating in the written medium is different then talking, people cannot infer voice inflections, tone, body language and hand gestures to figure out what is the actual intent of the words.

To me when you get into “one true way” comments you have to separate two things. If it is how a person lives with another then certainly qualifiers of “This is how I” do matter. If it is to gross generalized about some aspect of a kink or roles in general then no qualifier can or should save you from comments that dispatch your opinion.



MadRabbit -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 1:03:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez
If it is to gross generalized about some aspect of a kink or roles in general then no qualifier can or should save you from comments that dispatch your opinion.



I can agree with that. Gross generalizations are what I really dislike in these discussions and tend to annoy me.

However, as much as some people dont like it, if I were to post my own personal style and way, I would want someone to tell me that I am doing something wrong if they had reasons to support that opinion and not just an opinion of "Well, I think its just stupid."




ownedgirlie -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 1:14:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I find one of the other huge problems here is when people accuse others of speaking in absolutes or of being overly judgemental of the other person when they are simply judging the activity.


But people don't just judge the activity.  Often times people judge the person:

"I think walking into chainsaws is moronic."  - That is judging the activity.

"You're a moron for walking into a chainsaw."  - That is judging the person.

Hey maybe both are right.  Maybe neither are right.  But there is a difference in what is communicated, based on how it is communicated.


quote:


Judging isnt a bad thing in my book and very much necessary because without judgement, we cannot determine value and without determining value we cannot form an opinion.

True enough.  But do you think we can judge with compassion?  Or should negative or opposing judgment be fired through cannons at each other?

quote:


Just because I say "I find walking into a chainsaw to be wrong and a bad idea that doesnt deserve any consideration in logic and rationality" doesnt mean that I am judging people who are walking into chainsaws.

I agree - the sentence you used as an example judges the action and not the person.

quote:


I dont see whats wrong with stating... "It is my opinion that a slave who will literally do "anything" for a Master is the worst slave to own because there is things I can tell her to do that would make me not worth serving." 


Right or wrong, you are judging the slave (the person) at that point, and not the action.  "It is my opinion that a slave who will do (insert XYZ here), is....(insert opinion here)."  The subject of your opinion is the slave at that point.

quote:


Thats my value judgement. That is my personal philosophy. Its solely my opinion. I'm sorry if you find yourself in the criteria of that judgement, but should I change how I want things in my little part of Idaho because you are someone I find negative value in? Perhaps I should lie for the sake of making everyone feel good about themselves?

"...because you are someone I find negative value in."  That's judgment of the person.  Which is certainly fine and acceptable, but your post is going back and forth now, between judging persons vs. judging actions, and I'm confused now as to what your ultimate point is. 


quote:


When I say "I think you are nuts for doing this", it doesnt equate to a harsh judgemental opinion of the other person. It simply means I think you are doing something that I find to be nuts.


I totally disagree.  "you" is the subject of your sentence, therefore the subject of your harsh judgment. 

quote:


Maybe they will go..."Holy shit! That was nuts! What was I thinking?"

Maybe.  More often than not, however, they will likely get defensive, because you just told them they are nuts.

Why not, "I don't understand why someone would do XYZ - doing XYZ just seems nuts to me.  Can you explain it so I can see where you're coming from?"

quote:


Edited to Add :

I think things would go a lot smoother if people would attempt at writings like...

"In my opinion..."
"I think..."
"Based on the articles I've read, this is how I understand it"
"Personally, I dont like..."
"In my relationships and own experiences with other M/S couples, I've never seen this..."


I agree.  Add to that if you will,
"The activity you're doing seems nuts to me" vs. "YOU are nuts for doing that activity."

quote:


Unfortanely, some people dont seem to be happy with that. They want everyone to agree or give them a pat on the back for whatever they are doing or get angry simply because their opinion isnt the popular one.



I don't regularly see that.  I see people getting uptight when they are personally being negatively judged by others without being understood or asked for clarity.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 2:03:49 PM)

A child understands little and yet has likes and dislikes, as they grow they refine those things, choose and unchoose paths, each choice opening up some and closing others.

The path I have been on was right for me, I wouldn't want to return to any point along it however as I have grown past it to become the man I am today.  My way today is the one true way for me at this point in my life.



colouredin -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 2:08:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

A child understands little and yet has likes and dislikes, as they grow they refine those things, choose and unchoose paths, each choice opening up some and closing others.

The path I have been on was right for me, I wouldn't want to return to any point along it however as I have grown past it to become the man I am today.  My way today is the one true way for me at this point in my life.


Just what i was trying to say in my own inarticulate way, i totally agree :D



MadRabbit -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 2:59:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

"...because you are someone I find negative value in."  That's judgment of the person.  Which is certainly fine and acceptable, but your post is going back and forth now, between judging persons vs. judging actions, and I'm confused now as to what your ultimate point is. 



Not really. Your just trying to dissect my post and I am not going to get in a war over semantics.

In fact, it really proves a point as how people can interrupt words a different way and make a moutain out of a mole hill...as you have done in the past with several of my posts on a particular subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
I don't regularly see that.  I see people getting uptight when they are personally being negatively judged by others without being understood or asked for clarity.


Got an axe to grind over a not so popular opinion I made? [;)]



ownedgirlie -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 3:08:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

"...because you are someone I find negative value in."  That's judgment of the person.  Which is certainly fine and acceptable, but your post is going back and forth now, between judging persons vs. judging actions, and I'm confused now as to what your ultimate point is. 



Not really. Your just trying to dissect my post and I am not going to get in a war over semantics.


That's not at all what I was trying to do.  First, I do not engage in online "wars."  I tend to find them rather juvenile and silly.  Second, you were using "you" words to describe judging an action.  It made no sense to me.  But if you don't feel like clearing it up, no biggy.  Thanks for replying at all.

quote:


In fact, it really proves a point as how people can interrupt words a different way and make a moutain out of a mole hill...as you have done in the past with several of my posts on a particular subject.


I have no recollection in making any mountains, unless of course disagreeing or asking for clarity is seen as such.  In any case, I tend to interpret words for what they mean, and I will stand by  my opinion that if someone tells me I'm stupid, then they must think I am stupid, and if someone tells me I'm not stupid but the action I just took is, then I'll think they meant that, too.

Since you have no apparent interest in engaging in discourse with me here, however, I will refrain from asking you for clarity in the future.  I will not, however, refrain from commenting my opinion on your posts if I feel so inclined.




colouredin -> RE: Semantics and the One True Way... (10/23/2007 3:08:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

Stating my way is and my beliefs/desires are entirely different then someone spouting absolutes and judging people based on mine.

My problem in this area for the most part is not the expressing of a person’s way but the judging themselves right and others wrong. To not be considerate or intelligent to grasp different strokes for different folks, so my way is a far different thing then “one true way” and very easily communicated with the words and tone of a message.

I also think there needs to be a difference between this is how I live and the dynamics and statements made that cover entire population. For example it is my way to punish for this and entirely not about my way to infer for instance a submissive is naturally weak and naïve and needs a dominant to be healthy and happy in life.



I find one of the other huge problems here is when people accuse others of speaking in absolutes or of being overly judgemental of the other person when they are simply judging the activity.

Judging isnt a bad thing in my book and very much necessary because without judgement, we cannot determine value and without determining value we cannot form an opinion.

Just because I say "I find walking into a chainsaw to be wrong and a bad idea that doesnt deserve any consideration in logic and rationality" doesnt mean that I am judging people who are walking into chainsaws.

I dont see whats wrong with stating... "It is my opinion that a slave who will literally do "anything" for a Master is the worst slave to own because there is things I can tell her to do that would make me not worth serving." 

Thats my value judgement. That is my personal philosophy. Its solely my opinion. I'm sorry if you find yourself in the criteria of that judgement, but should I change how I want things in my little part of Idaho because you are someone I find negative value in? Perhaps I should lie for the sake of making everyone feel good about themselves?

When I say "I think you are nuts for doing this", it doesnt equate to a harsh judgemental opinion of the other person. It simply means I think you are doing something that I find to be nuts.

Maybe they will go..."Holy shit! That was nuts! What was I thinking?"

Edited to Add :

I think things would go a lot smoother if people would attempt at writings like...

"In my opinion..."
"I think..."
"Based on the articles I've read, this is how I understand it"
"Personally, I dont like..."
"In my relationships and own experiences with other M/S couples, I've never seen this..."

Unfortanely, some people dont seem to be happy with that. They want everyone to agree or give them a pat on the back for whatever they are doing or get angry simply because their opinion isnt the popular one.




I agree that judgements arent ness a bad thing at all, and i also think that all people do judge whether they claim to or not. I find myslf guilty of not giving an opinion for fear of being shot down. I think the main problem is not the judgements that are formed but the way they are expressed. As you say writing in my opinion etc however if you write "in my opinion i think you are stupid" it kinda makes the thing a personal attack. I can really enjoy arguments myself but only if they dont degenerate into that kind of rubbish. I do think that opinions should be stated with sensitivity, we cant absolve ourselves from meaness simply by saying its just an opinion. Some opinions are structured simply as a way to cause reaction or offence. There are a couple of posters on this forum i have noticed doing this, i try to just ignore them even though a few comments have been aimed at me. They were not arguing with my point but slyly insulting me. As you say people can twist meanings to whatever they want and normally that will be the lowest rather than highest denominator.



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