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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Your "judgement" is justification for invasion? What if I meet you at 3 in the morning in a street with no-one around, and my judgement suggests that I must take from you what I need. I'm no ninja, but I used to box when I was younger, so I'd blitzkrieg you in under a minute and take what I need. What then? All's fair in love and war?

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2
Perhaps I can avoid getting mugged by you either by carrying a concealed weapon or staying home and watching tv instead. 

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2
Perhaps I can avoid getting mugged by you either by carrying a concealed weapon or staying home and watching tv instead. 

I don't think women are allowed to protect themselves in England, like they are here in the U.S.

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2
Perhaps I can avoid getting mugged by you either by carrying a concealed weapon or staying home and watching tv instead. 

I don't think women are allowed to protect themselves in England, like they are here in the U.S.

I suppose watching bad television shows would be my only alternative to getting the snot kicked outta me. 

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

What's the point?  People have to use their judgement. 

Your "judgement" is justification for invasion? What if I meet you at 3 in the morning in a street with no-one around, and my judgement suggests that I must take from you what I need. I'm no ninja, but I used to box when I was younger, so I'd blitzkrieg you in under a minute and take what I need. What then? All's fair in love and war?

What other than your judgement would you use to decide what to do in life?  You judge the facts you are given with the value system you have.  I'm not sure what your point is.  Are you the type to take on a lone woman out taking a pleasure stroll?   Of course, that's assuming I'm the type to be out at 3 am in the first place.

Each side makes decisions, some of which are based on a perceived reaction.  I often don't speed because I don't wish to pay the fine of a ticket.  Perhaps Iran could avoid war by not being so violent and aggressive.  *shrug*  Perhaps I can avoid getting mugged by you either by carrying a concealed weapon or staying home and watching tv instead. 

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Your "judgement" is justification for invasion? What if I meet you at 3 in the morning in a street with no-one around, and my judgement suggests that I must take from you what I need. I'm no ninja, but I used to box when I was younger, so I'd blitzkrieg you in under a minute and take what I need. What then? All's fair in love and war?

You sound like you're getting very angry, and like you're making not-so-subtle threats. Why can't you just say that you disagree, and say that you don't believe anyone should ever trust their judgement. What is this, hateful viciousness for pacifism now? It's absurd.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

What's the point?  People have to use their judgement. 

Your "judgement" is justification for invasion? What if I meet you at 3 in the morning in a street with no-one around, and my judgement suggests that I must take from you what I need. I'm no ninja, but I used to box when I was younger, so I'd blitzkrieg you in under a minute and take what I need. What then? All's fair in love and war?

What other than your judgement would you use to decide what to do in life?  You judge the facts you are given with the value system you have.  I'm not sure what your point is.  Are you the type to take on a lone woman out taking a pleasure stroll?   Of course, that's assuming I'm the type to be out at 3 am in the first place.

Each side makes decisions, some of which are based on a perceived reaction.  I often don't speed because I don't wish to pay the fine of a ticket.  Perhaps Iran could avoid war by not being so violent and aggressive.  *shrug*  Perhaps I can avoid getting mugged by you either by carrying a concealed weapon or staying home and watching tv instead. 

The point I'm making is that if it came down to an individual being the judge and jury over the space/liberty/freedom of another individual, and everyone else has to accept this because you think you're right, e.g. Iraq, then you won't mind someone invading your space on the basis that they think they're right.

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If you're going to run 'round taking from other people on the basis that you know best...well, slippery slope, because you won't have a leg to stand on when the shoe is on the other foot. Hopefully, you won't be put in a situation where you have to stop and think about what it actually means to have your space invaded by someone who's judgement tells him that he needs to take from you.

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In a nutshell, you're entitled to your value system, but you're not entitled to force it on a foreign nation.

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I like your idea of staying home instead with the TV.......keep your business in-house......but steer clear of Murdoch's media empire; otherwise, you won't be staying home for very long.

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Am I the type to take on a lone woman out for a leisurely stroll?..............I like the comfort of my own home, and they don't stroll very far inside my four walls, and it's not exactly leisurely. I operate on a purely upfront agreement basis: I'll send you an application pack and a starter form, and we'll go from there.

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

Are you saying we're "forcing" freedom on another nation?  Hmmm...

And I would dispute what we are "entitled" to do, because it seems that we *are* ... since we did. 

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

Application pack??  Starter form?  You got them lined up down the street?  LOL

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

Basically, if you threaten me, I'm going to stand up for myself.  If I tell you that if you don't leave me be, I'm going to do *A*, and you continue, then I'm going to do it!!  I don't make empty threats.  That's what I think the Iraq war is about.  Most of the country is for an open, free society, and they are working towards that with us helping them.  It wasn't a classical "invasion."  When we have secured the country, we won't take their land, or their goods.  We rebuild and go home.  But we need to stay until it's done. 

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2
Are you saying we're "forcing" freedom on another nation?  Hmmm...

And I would dispute what we are "entitled" to do, because it seems that we *are* ... since we did. 

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGentThe point I'm making is that if it came down to an individual being the judge and jury over the space/liberty/freedom of another individual, and everyone else has to accept this because you think you're right, e.g. Iraq, then you won't mind someone invading your space on the basis that they think they're right. If you're going to run 'round taking from other people on the basis that you know best...well, slippery slope, because you won't have a leg to stand on when the shoe is on the other foot. Hopefully, you won't be put in a situation where you have to stop and think about what it actually means to have your space invaded by someone who's judgement tells him that he needs to take from you.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

Are you saying we're "forcing" freedom on another nation?  Hmmm...

And I would dispute what we are "entitled" to do, because it seems that we *are* ... since we did. 

Freedom is akin to self-determination.....invading a country, occupying it and sacking the government in order to impose a US selected regime, is not self-determination.

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Your government: they're like apes swinging 'round the trees, picking anything up and eating it and smashing anything they don't understand; someone needs to put them on a leash.

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2


And I would dispute what we are "entitled" to do, because it seems that we *are* ... since we did. 

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

Basically, if you threaten me, I'm going to stand up for myself.  If I tell you that if you don't leave me be, I'm going to do *A*, and you continue, then I'm going to do it!!  I don't make empty threats.  That's what I think the Iraq war is about.  Most of the country is for an open, free society, and they are working towards that with us helping them.  It wasn't a classical "invasion."  When we have secured the country, we won't take their land, or their goods.  We rebuild and go home.  But we need to stay until it's done. 

Let's get this straight. Are you saying that Iraq was a threat to the US? If you are you are seriously dellusional.

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Are you saying the US planned to rebuild Iraq? If so you are seriously dellusional

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 and don't even listen to your own government. Rumsfeld's No.2 said immediately in the aftermath of the invasion that America owes Iraq nothing, American soldiers have given Iraqis their freedom and that is all they get and should be grateful.

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The British general who was supposed to be in charge of reconstruction in the British sector after the invasion, having been to Washington for discussions before the invasion reported to Blair he should be seriously concerned about the lack of planning for after the invasion because basically there was none. Blair was criminally negligent for going along with the invasion for knowing that fact.

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Again, if you think you forced freedom on the Iraqis, you are seriously dellusional. YOU ARE OCCUPYING THEIR COUNTRY and TRYING to FORCE THEM TO PRIVATISE THEIR OIL COMPANIES and GIVE US COMPANIES FAVOURABLE CONTRACTS!!!!

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You are just an apologist for a bunch of cack handed ignorant imperialists who think having military power is all it takes to run an empire. If they read a little bit of history they would know that running an empire requires a little bit of planning or it all ends up in choas like...er..Iraq.

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Bush and Co were never interested in giving anyone freedom.

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2


And I would dispute what we are "entitled" to do, because it seems that we *are* ... since we did. 

......i would be careful about that attitude. Isn't it merely another way of saying 'might makes right'? You could use that same argument to justify a thief's actions, by saying that they are entitled to do what they do, because they've done it. Surely there is an external set of values that gives a right to perform an action....not just the fact of the action.

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2


And I would dispute what we are "entitled" to do, because it seems that we *are* ... since we did. 

......i would be careful about that attitude. Isn't it merely another way of saying 'might makes right'? You could use that same argument to justify a thief's actions, by saying that they are entitled to do what they do, because they've done it. Surely there is an external set of values that gives a right to perform an action....not just the fact of the action.

I was disputing his wording, not making some kind of broad idealogical statement.  But basically in the world, countries do what they can get away with.  You can stand for what's right, perhaps do it well, but ultimately, Might does become right.  Winners write the history books.  We as a country do try to do the right thing, and sometimes we pay for that by being run over by those who don't.  I don't think we've done "wrong" here.  I think Americans in general are good people.  Our very freedom puts our security in jeapordy but I'd rather have my freedom than safety. 

If Iran has nukes, or China invades Taiwan, is it right?  Are they "entitled?"  I'm not sure that's even an issue.  They shouldn't be entitled, but that's kind of a moot point, and not even worth discussing.   Instead we decide what impact that has on the world, what do we "do" about it.  Same with us in Iraq.  WE ARE ALREADY  THERE.  Now what?  Whether entitled or not, it's DONE.  So do we finish building and securing or do we cut and run?  That for me is the question. 

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

Same with us in Iraq.  WE ARE ALREADY  THERE.  Now what?  Whether entitled or not, it's DONE.  So do we finish building and securing or do we cut and run?  That for me is the question. 

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

You are so incredibly anti-American

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

And the UK is just a wonderland full of reason and compassion, is that it?

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

The US and it's government is just the worse thing out there, except for everywhere else.

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

Same with us in Iraq.  WE ARE ALREADY  THERE.  Now what?  Whether entitled or not, it's DONE.  So do we finish building and securing or do we cut and run?  That for me is the question. 

....to a point i agree. There is a primary set of decisions to be made based on where we are now. However, there is also a secondary set of decisions to be made, revolving around how the hell did we get here. To ignore the second set is to potentially make the same mistakes again.
There is another issue.......if we do not examine how we got here, then those who got us here get away with it. We lives in democracies, one of our duties is to hold our governments to account. We can not do that without examining their decisions and drawing whatever relevant conclusions there are to be made. The evidence i have seen, for instance, seems to heavily support the notion that the governments of the UK and the US lied about the reasons for going into Iraq. What their motivations were is less clear, but ought we trust those politicians again? If they're prepared to lie to us about the reasons for going to war what else have they lied to us about? These are not moot issues, they are vital questions.....and it is our duty as citizens of democracies to demand answers......

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ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: pinkme2


And I would dispute what we are "entitled" to do, because it seems that we *are* ... since we did. 

......i would be careful about that attitude. Isn't it merely another way of saying 'might makes right'? You could use that same argument to justify a thief's actions, by saying that they are entitled to do what they do, because they've done it. Surely there is an external set of values that gives a right to perform an action....not just the fact of the action.

I was disputing his wording, not making some kind of broad idealogical statement.  But basically in the world, countries do what they can get away with.  You can stand for what's right, perhaps do it well, but ultimately, Might does become right.  Winners write the history books.  We as a country do try to do the right thing, and sometimes we pay for that by being run over by those who don't.  I don't think we've done "wrong" here.  I think Americans in general are good people.  Our very freedom puts our security in jeapordy but I'd rather have my freedom than safety. 

If Iran has nukes, or China invades Taiwan, is it right?  Are they "entitled?"  I'm not sure that's even an issue.  They shouldn't be entitled, but that's kind of a moot point, and not even worth discussing.   Instead we decide what impact that has on the world, what do we "do" about it.  Same with us in Iraq.  WE ARE ALREADY  THERE.  Now what?  Whether entitled or not, it's DONE.  So do we finish building and securing or do we cut and run?  That for me is the question. 

 


 
Absolutely AMMORAL...and we wonder why the rest of the world looks at the US as evil and pink has summed it up perfectly.  Genghis Khan, Stalin, and Saddam all agree with you.