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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 5:33:45 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Well, if we're hated anyways, why don't we cover our retreat with a carpet-bombing that would flatten all insurgents/terrorists/resistance/"freedom fighters" (Did I cover all the terms, PC and otherwise?)



No, you forgot to mention civilians

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 341
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 5:35:22 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline 		farglebargle: Get over yourself.

What he said reflects reality. We pull out before we accomplish our objectives, we’ll lose credibility, and we’ll begin our decline as a superpower.

farglebargle: People think you're a bunch of Lying Religious Fundamentalists,

No, people LIKE YOU thing we’re a bunch of “lying religious fundamentalists.”

However, the other side of the argument is spot on when seeing a threat for what it is.

farglebargle: who just can't wait to expand their empire by tossing nukes at Iran.

Show me an official Republican Party, or White House, statement attesting to our “wanting” to “nuke” Iran.

The last time I checked, Bush said he didn’t want to rule the military option out. But, rather, he’s emphasizing the diplomatic angle.

farglebargle: I'm not sure what more damage you think can be done. It's pretty much over.

No, it’s not over. The conflict is still going on, we’re winning, and we have momentum on our side.

farglebargle: Oh, and WHAT MILITARY STRENGTH??? In case you missed the news, the US Army is SCARED OF BLACKWATER MERCENARIES.

Negative, the army isn’t afraid of Blackwater Mercenaries. They’re pissed at what they did. This instant I’m talking about, you had a situation where the mercenaries, who outnumbered soldiers riding a humvee, forced the soldiers to disarm and lie on the ground.

Until they could untangle the collision between their SUV and the humvee.

Let’s see that same group try that on an entire fully armed army (combat troops) unit.

farglebargle: JUST LIKE VIET-NAM.

You shot yourself in the foot with that statement.

It’s your side of the argument that won the war for the Vietnamese on our soil. Now, here you guys are again, insinuating that we should lose our will to fight here as well, then pull out. Thus, trying to win the war for our enemies.

farglebargle: Because you were fucking IDIOTS to fall for Bush's Criminal Fraud,

No, agreeing with the President to get rid of a REAL asymmetrical threat to this country doesn’t constitute us being “idiots”. It makes us realists.

Also, this threat is real, not a fraud.

farglebargle: you're stuck in a QUAGMIRE,

No where not. We’re winning in Iraq, and we’re progressing in the economic, military, and political fronts. Also, we’ve got momentum on our side, even our former enemies are turning against our enemies, and siding with us.

They’re seeing that we’re there until we accomplish the mission, and they’re increasingly cooperating with us. Rather than hiding low in hopes of saving their hinds in the eventuality that your side of the argument causes a troop pull out.

Quagmire? ROTF, not even close.

farglebargle:  and now you're just too damn proud to admit you fucked up.

Your posts show that it’s you that’s too damn proud to admit the fallacy of your side of the argument.

You’re expecting us to admit to something that simply isn’t the case. All you have is an OPINION that we “fucked” up. That opinion isn’t supported by fact. None of your posts on this thread amounts to anything resembling a reasoned argument.

None of them prove your position either.

I’ve yet to see a logical argument from your side of the argument proving the “you fucked up” opinion as “fact.”

However, the facts are on our side. Your side of the argument is too proud to recognize the facts that we’re using, trying to find red herrings, shoot and move, or stepping back and drawing a new line just to preserve what, deep down inside, you know is a strong logical argument proving your side for the argument wrong.

farglebargle:  And your false-pride is killing 3 US Troops each and every day?

Don’t mistake will to fight as “false pride”. However, if we pull out because we don’t want to lose “3 troops” a day, then prepare for a day when we lose more Americans a day on U.S. soil.

Do the math, it took the terrorists a while to accomplish in Iraq and Afghanistan what they quickly accomplished in one day on U.S. soil.

farglebargle:  What did those 3 guys EVER DO TO YOU, that you'd rather they die than admit you fell for the Con?

You don’t have legs to stand on when talking “in defense” of those guys.

Those three guys were proud of what they were doing. They’re proud to serve their country, and would’ve been glad to go back to Iraq to serve again.

Heck, many of the disabled soldiers would be glad to serve in Iraq again if they could.

Death is a risk they knew they took when they enlisted, and when they enthusiastically served in Iraq.

And, I GUARANTEE YOU, these guys DON’T want YOU to use THEIR deaths in an argument against something THEY BELIEVED in.

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 342
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 5:38:25 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline 		farglebargle: Are you suggesting the Puppet Government the US installed is hostile to the US?

No, he tried to define for you what an enemy was by showing you a definition that he found. Nowhere in his post did he suggest that the democratically elected Iraq government is our enemy.

farglebargle: If the US TROOPS weren't there, THEY WOULDN'T BE DYING.

If the troops weren’t there, they’d fight each other, and more would end up dying.

farglebargle: I wonder why Bush Supporters want the troops to die?

That’s a seriously loaded question that misrepresents the other side of the argument’s position.

We want our troops to WIN. We don’t want our troops to pull out until they accomplish our main objectives there. We don’t want to pull back, just to send our troops back in to contain a war raging in and around Iraq.

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 343
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 5:44:32 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		I somehow doubt that the "civilians" are not part of the enemy force...Using the official and/or common sense definition, whatever is trying to kill your ground-troops are enemies...And anyone harboring, protecting, or supporting them is more than likely also an enemy, using the old Nietzchian (Spelling?) proverb, "The friend of my enemy is my enemy"(Although, technically speaking, that is obvious as well, no?)
At the very least, it would have the desired effect of increasing enemy deaths and decreasing friendly deaths...And wouldn't either or both be a GOOD thing? Or do YOU want "3 more Americans per day" to die?

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 344
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 5:45:12 PM   
herfacechair


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Status: offline 		mnottertail: there is not a country on this planet that can come close to our military strenght in firepower.

But that didn’t stop a terrorist group from striking the Pentagon and the World Trade Center.

This statement tries to justify a, let’s pull out, and just worry about our defense stance.
If anything, that represents a retreat.

Asymmetrical warfare gives the weaker combatant the chance to prevail against the stronger one. Provided that the later fails to understand unrestricted warfare, and continue to cling to “traditional” means of warfare.

mnottertail: The thing about defeated by an enemy 1/20th---- vietnam? cuba?

On Vietnam:

quote:

From the memoirs General Vo Nguyen Giap, the North Vietnamese general

"What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battles of TET. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But, we were elated to notice the media were definitely helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefields. Yes, we were ready to surrender. You had won!"


It was the left that lost it for us. ON Cuba? That’s a Kennedy fumble, chickened out at the last minute, and failed to order fire support to reign in. In the mean time, the Cubans we trained were kicking hind end and taking names, until they ran out of Ammo.

But, had Kennedy ordered the air attacks, the outcome would’ve been different.

The point here is that the left has a history of losing wars for us since the Bay of Pigs. And they don’t seem to want to give that trend up.

mnottertail: But, assume we waltz out of there and people throughout the hemisphere, laugh, hold their sides, and point and taunt....Do you think any one of those fuckers is stupid enough as a nation, a people to say let's sashay in there and gobble those losers up? I mean, is it a big deal somehow?

Again, Bin Laden and company have stated that their ultimate objective is to unite the World under the Banner of Islam.

If we pull out of Iraq, guaranteed, we’ll have a regional war erupting from Iraq. But the terrorists, and their supporting governments, would eventually prevail and set up Islamic Califphates. Then they’ll set about removing Israel.

Then they’ll step up on their efforts in Europe.

The France riots are just a taste of things to come.

No, we won’t have to worry about the people in this hemisphere going after us if we pull out--maybe.

But sooner or later, we’ll be fighting for our survival on our own soil.

What you don’t get is that if we pull out of Iraq before we accomplish our objectives, we’ll be weakened, and the world will see us as such.

That’ll represent the beginning of our decline as a superpower.

So yes, if we waltz out of Iraq, sooner or later, we’re going to get our hind ends kicked, right here.

(in reply to herfacechair)
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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 5:49:03 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Egpah, do you really believe every civillian that would be killed by carpet bombing is associated with the terrorists ?   I actually gave you way more credit than that.


(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 346
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 5:51:31 PM   
herfacechair


Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline 		mnottertail: The only momentum I am aware of is the velocity of body bags hitting the street in downtown Bagdad, and our riding the bobsled straight to hell.

That’s the only thing that you WANT to see. However, we’ve got momentum on our side in Iraq, to the point that our troops are starting to shift to a new number one priority--cleaning up mafia type corruption.

mnottertail: Look, you 'meaning the administration' just go out and say---Go back to playing stick and ball with one another's heads you goddamn dweebs.

Not practical. We let them do that, and we’ll have a regional war going on that won’t end in good for that region. In the meantime, the terrorists leap in bounds toward their ultimate objective . . . they’ll finally have their first caliphate/emirate.

And it won’t end there, because that’s just one step on their game plan, with the ultimate being their uniting the world under the banner of Islam.

mnottertail: Don't bother with that infrastructure improvement,

Negative, we’re involved with rebuilding that country, that’s part of asymmetrical warfare. We have to help them build an infrastructure to support their government, their military, and their other functions.

If we don’t do our reconstruction there, we’ll give them another Taliban Afghanistan.

mnottertail: cause we aint done that nowhere in the world.

Post Civil War, Post Spanish American War, Post World War II. We’re currently doing it in Iraq and Afghanistan.

mnottertail: Now Saudia Arabia has prolly the best of infrastructure for them what they think counts, and that is the largest source of our woes.

You can’t make that statement, then tell us that we shouldn’t worry about Iraq’s infrastructure. The Iraqi government is playing a large role in their reconstruction efforts, and they’ll eventually have something like what Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries have.

Except, they’ll be democratic. And, with all things being equal, both Iraq and Afghanistan would overtake the other countries in the Middle East economically.

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 347
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 5:53:39 PM   
EPGAH


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Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		No, I don't, but at this point, I'm so tired of "but we should pull out to reduce troop casualties", that a clean(sing) airstrike seems like the best option...And in terms of kill-ratio, it would be...But an increasing number of Iraquis are turning to OUR side, which is WHY we have to keep up the door-to-door warfare, and that's WHY it'll be a long, drawn-out process...
However, if American troops on the ground were allowed to shoot hostile elements on a PROACTIVE basis, instead of just "Fire if fired upon", then that too would lower our casualties...
Or if we were allowed to do "whatever it takes" to get answers out of enemies we capture...since they never actually declared themselves as combatants or soldiers, they may or may not be covered by Geneva...

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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 5:55:04 PM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		You forgot to mention, we helped rebuild Japan...And gave them the transistor technology...and under their imbalanced patent laws, they get "rights" not only over techs they patent, but over any techs descended from it for the next 10 years! And then they get to sell it back to us!

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 349
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 6:02:00 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I have actually made posts about the very thing you mention, as much as being in Iraq sucks, pulling out would be a disaster. At present 8 of the 18 districts have been handed over to Iraqi forces, so its not all bad. I just reacted to your quote about carpet bombing, which i think would produce more martyrs than anyone realises.

As i have said over and over again, there is no easy way out fot this mess and i blame Bush and Blair for dragging us into it.

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 350
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 6:05:11 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Well, if we're hated anyways, why don't we cover our retreat with a carpet-bombing that would flatten all insurgents/terrorists/resistance/"freedom fighters"


That's so fucking dumb, it doesn't even merit any other response than pointing out how fucking dumb that idea is.

That's about as fucking dumb as suggesting that non-military government employees should be subject to DADT as you did earlier in this thread, wouldn't you agree?

~stef


You've missed the point, completely.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to stef)
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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 6:09:12 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

farglebargle: Spin, spin, spin..

kind of reminds me of someone that’s seeing a factual argument against his case, but refusing to accept it.

Do understand that simply saying “spin” doesn’t constitute refutation. I’m still waiting for you to present the facts to support your assumptions.

What I’ve presented was FACT. We moved out of Saudi Arabia because our assets there became obsolete with Saddam’s fall.


Yeah, OK. whatever. Saudi Arabia is SO well policed, they've captured all the 9/11 supporters, and have hanged them for their financial backing, and there's no reason for us to look, is there?

Right.

Hey, if the Saudis are YOUR FRIENDS, and you wanna give them a pass for 9/11, that's your choice.

Some of us don't like to appease Terrorist Nations, like Bush Supporters do.

Oh, and use REAL QUOTES. Your colored replies just make the conversation harder to follow.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to herfacechair)
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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 6:10:12 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		True, but remember, if we want to lower troop casualties, we have to let our troops do their job with less micromanagement from afar...And change the Rules of Engagement from "Fire only if fired upon" (After receiving fire, one or more soldiers will probably be dead, and in no condition to return fire--oh, yes, and also another death on our side to complain about!), to "Search&Destroy" (If you see someone approaching you with a weapon, or if you see a sniper on a rooftop, and you know it's not YOUR forces, chances are good it's an enemy!)

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 353
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 6:10:37 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline 		Do tell.  Feel free to elucidate, my capriciously vociferous compatriot.

~stef


_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 354
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 6:12:08 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herfacechair

farglebargle: But you LOST VIETNAM. The North Won, and the world didn't end.

From the man that lead the North Vietnamese against the West:

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagmb009.php

quote:

From the memoirs General Vo Nguyen Giap, the North Vietnamese general

"What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battles of TET. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But, we were elated to notice the media were definitely helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefields. Yes, we were ready to surrender. You had won!"


Who should I believe in this case, you, or General Vo Nguyen Giap?

The correct statement would be that the anti war dissent in America WON the Vietnam War for the Vietnamese, and they won it on American Soil.


Sounds like the guys running the War knew as much about Viet-nam as they do about the Middle East?

Really, y'all seem SURPRISED by the Shia/Sunni/Kurd/Turk civil war.

Ok, so if they were SO OUT OF TOUCH, the US didn't know they had won, what does that say about the guys at the Pentagon?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to herfacechair)
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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 6:15:28 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

Do tell. Feel free to elucidate, my capriciously vociferous compatriot.

~stef




Well, as a High Profile homosexual, Condi has a duty to other homosexuals to be a vanguard for their equal rights.

Since she's Secretary of State, she *should* give a shit about those serving this nation who are discriminated and harassed simply because of their orientation.

Since she's apparently more than happy to hide in the closet, it shows a lack of guts. She *should* resign, saying, "If you're going to discriminate against gays in the military who desire to serve, than I cannot."

She *SHOULD* put "It's ME or your narrowminded bigotry" as the 2 options Bush has. But she's willing to hide in the closet.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 10/31/2007 6:16:12 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to stef)
Profile   Post #: 356
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 6:16:58 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

True, but remember, if we want to lower troop casualties, we have to let our troops *COME THE FUCK HOME.*



I fixed that for you.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 357
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 6:19:25 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

I somehow doubt that the "civilians" are not part of the enemy force...Using the official and/or common sense definition, whatever is trying to kill your ground-troops are enemies...And anyone harboring, protecting, or supporting them is more than likely also an enemy, using the old Nietzchian (Spelling?) proverb, "The friend of my enemy is my enemy"(Although, technically speaking, that is obvious as well, no?)
At the very least, it would have the desired effect of increasing enemy deaths and decreasing friendly deaths...And wouldn't either or both be a GOOD thing? Or do YOU want "3 more Americans per day" to die?


You know, you don't HAVE to kill people.

Jesus would suggest that you're going to burn in hell, forever, for it. So I don't really understand how it's a valid strategy for the religious crazies, but hey, they're CRAZY.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 358
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 6:21:08 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


Don’t mistake will to fight as “false pride”. However, if we pull out because we don’t want to lose “3 troops” a day, then prepare for a day when we lose more Americans a day on U.S. soil.


So you admit that all the preparations and spying done by the Bush Administration and Homeland Security haven't enhanced your security, and that the ONLY THING preventing the End Of Days is the continued pointless death of US Troops in Iraq.

You're working for Satan, aren't you?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to herfacechair)
Profile   Post #: 359
RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/31/2007 6:32:19 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, as a High Profile homosexual, Condi has a duty to other homosexuals to be a vanguard for their equal rights.

Even if she is gay, that's complete nonsense.  It's disconcerting, to say the least, to hear you froth at the mouth on one hand about our personal freedoms and on the other hand hear you dictate to a citizen what their supposed duty is based on a completely unvalidated supposition.

Hypocrisy is so attractive.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 360
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