Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (Full Version)

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Fidelity -> Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:06:42 AM)

I have to admit that I am very amused by so many instances of "topping form the bottom" being expressed here. Usually by Dominants. So I will simply open this discusion with a simple question.

Why is your "control" so important to you As Dominants, that your subs cannot make simple requests of you,and not be seen in this light?

I never saw any difficulty with this-I could always decline-or dismiss girls who became overly annoying. But perhaps my more laid back stance comes for the simple fact that I have my own power,and really see no need to take it from others. I prefer any EXCESS of it be given to me freely. And I have NO sense of insecurity in this,at ALL.



LadyKim -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:15:56 AM)

Honestly, I do not believe any dominant should be surprised by a submissive topping from below. Submissives test dominants to see where their boundaries are (even when they have already been verbalized). So many dominants say one thing and do another when push comes to shove that subs know they usually get a bit of slack.

Personally, I enjoy when a sub pulls the topping from below routine. It adds a dynamic to the exchange that tends to liven things up a bit. Then again...... I happen to love resistance scenarios too. There are times when it can be over done, of course, but a healthy touch of....... spirit...... can lead in new directions I hadn't thought of from time to time. Just because I'm dominant doesn't mean I'm ominicient.



tinkJH -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:25:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

Why is your "control" so important to you As Dominants, that your subs cannot make simple requests of you,and not be seen in this light?





because they are Dominants? Thing is... IMO and from what I have always known, topping from the bottom isn't asking a simply request or begging the Dom for them to do something - It is manipulating the Dom to get their way. There is a large difference from asking your Dom for something - and manipulating him into doing something.



Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:29:21 AM)

I think it is really in the nature of humans to test. I hardly feel offended by it-it usually means they simply seek an answer.

And after all,one CAN be playful without being disrespectful. The only time this behavior has bothered me was when it seemed to arise from some sort of deep neurosis. And unfortunately,therapy from a mental health professional seems to be the only way to answer that.

And I realize and accept my limitations,that's one question I KNOW I am not qualified to answer.



Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:33:31 AM)

Tink?

How can one "manipulate a Dominant" into doing something they don't want to?

Any more than a Dom can do the same with a sub who doesn't want to?

Does it not by definition of the basic personality TRAITS,rule them out AS Dominants, if they are weak and foolish enough to allow this to happen?



darkinshadows -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:34:22 AM)


I think people wave the 'topping from below' banner around too much, but doesn't mean that it's because a sub is testing. Theres a big difference. Topping from below isnt as simple as a sub 'pushing' or 'testing' - but is a form of manipulation in its worst form.

Peace and Love



Veav -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:34:40 AM)

Feedback is good. How do you define "topping from the bottom"? If a dom takes into account a sub's erogenous zones when deciding how to play, does that count?

This is what comes to mind (off-site text, not mine, not worksafe but funny as hell) when I hear the term. Some form of control or manipulation. Asking questions or providing opinions is healthy behavior, I'd think... even unquestioning obedience can still involve providing opinions. Same with being a little bit playful and the occasional token resistance, especially when both top and bottom know damn well what happens next!



darkinshadows -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:37:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

Tink?

How can one "manipulate a Dominant" into doing something they don't want to?

Any more than a Dom can do the same with a sub who doesn't want to?

Does it not by definition of the basic personality TRAITS,rule them out AS Dominants, if they are weak and foolish enough to allow this to happen?


Who says that they are any less dominant than you, just because you view it as weak or foolish? Your speaking as though you make the rules. You do not. What and who is dominant to you, may not be to another and visa versa - makes them no less a dominant to someone though.

Peace and Love



AAkasha -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:37:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

I have to admit that I am very amused by so many instances of "topping form the bottom" being expressed here. Usually by Dominants. So I will simply open this discusion with a simple question.

Why is your "control" so important to you As Dominants, that your subs cannot make simple requests of you,and not be seen in this light?

I never saw any difficulty with this-I could always decline-or dismiss girls who became overly annoying. But perhaps my more laid back stance comes for the simple fact that I have my own power,and really see no need to take it from others. I prefer any EXCESS of it be given to me freely. And I have NO sense of insecurity in this,at ALL.


It's a matter of poor timing. The time for a submissive to bring up wants, needs, desires and fantasies is not right smack in the middle of a very intense moment when the dominant is getting off on the control.

It's also a matter of method. Sure, it's great if a submissive just tells me of a fantasy or idea so I can ask questions and understand it. Often subs don't do that, and instead they "hint" or "pout" afterwards and it's extremely annoying.

The other reason it can be annoying is when the dominant is really into something and the interaction is "owned" by them. It's a time where the dominant is really, really wrapped up and experiencing something incredibly intense -- then the submissive starts getting distracted or performs poorly or starts the passive-aggressive sighing because they've decided they would like to be flogged instead, or wants to be fucked with the strap on now.

Surely I would think a dominant who enjoys topping for the pleasure of the submissive LOVES feedback, anytime - anywhere. I'm not like that though. I enjoy dominating a man for my pleausre, and I have a host of nasty, dark desires I want to explore. I take all his fetishes and desires into consideration and use them in my own way. I am never at a loss for what to do and thinking, "Gee, I wish I had one of those subs that topped from the bottom so I could know what to do next."

Akasha



MrThorns -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:43:52 AM)

I totally agree with tink. Asking for something is hardly topping from the bottom.

quote:

Why is your "control" so important to you As Dominants, that your subs cannot make simple requests of you,and not be seen in this light?


I'll answer the first part...why is my control so important? Because I'm a dominant. I enjoy being in control of my life and have sought out a relationship in which I have consentually-given control over the life and dealings of my slave. If I wanted someone else to decide what I was to do, well then, I wouldn't be in this business.

quote:


Honestly, I do not believe any dominant should be surprised by a submissive topping from below. Submissives test dominants to see where their boundaries are (even when they have already been verbalized). So many dominants say one thing and do another when push comes to shove that subs know they usually get a bit of slack.


I really don't understand this. Why would a submissive be with that dominant? If she does not feel a need to obey the orders of that dominant because she "knows" that they will cut her some slack, is she submitting? That was the basis of the relationship, right? Unless she discussed this with the dominant as part of some form of contract or agreement, but I have yet to hear of any such stipulation that says, "The slave will obey the orders of the Master, unless she feels as though she can get away with it."

In my mind, topping from the bottom is a violation of terms and a one way ticket out the door.

I agree that resistance scenes can be great fun, but I think it should be the dominant who decides when and where that scene is going to happen, not the slave.

~Thorns



Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:45:40 AM)

I can well aprreciate the annoyance of bad timing. I will usually just tell a sub to hush during a control scene-unless there is a safety issue involved. If she persists,I simply end the scene. Thusly,the bad behavior is not reinforced with a reward.

If I were to respond to it with drama,it often encourages more of the same. If one dislikes having one's buttons pushed-disconnect the circuit. But that exists on the DOMINANT end of self control-not the submissive side.

And I would hardly blame a SUB for MY lack of emotional self-control.



AAkasha -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:58:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

I can well aprreciate the annoyance of bad timing. I will usually just tell a sub to hush during a control scene-unless there is a safety issue involved. If she persists,I simply end the scene. Thusly,the bad behavior is not reinforced with a reward.

If I were to respond to it with drama,it often encourages more of the same. If one dislikes having one's buttons pushed-disconnect the circuit. But that exists on the DOMINANT end of self control-not the submissive side.

And I would hardly blame a SUB for MY lack of emotional self-control.


Why do you assume other dominants react to topping from the botton with drama?

Akasha



RiotGirl -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 9:59:18 AM)

Can some one please get a consise, everybody agreed on clear answer to what excatly IS topping from the bottom? i've been actually too sure on what it means. Obvious answer is, trying to be the dominant one while you are submissive. But thats too simple for me. Anyone have a more indepth, clear, concise, agreed upon definition?




EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:14:37 AM)

For me topping from the bottom (except in specific teaching circumstances) is when a bottom/sub tries to subvert the dominant into doing something the bottom/sub wants to do, despite whatever the dominant might want, even possibly when knowing it's NOT what the dominant wants.

I agree that some tops/doms get a bit oversensitive to this and consider a sub doing pretty much anything not specifically told to do as trying to top from the bottom, but then it's also true that a lot of bottoms/subs try to TFTB, specially when they are new and haven't become really secure with themselves yet.



Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:15:48 AM)

Grins,just read back through the boards using the search engine Akasha.

You'll see more Dominant drama being expressed over it than ANY other subject. Which is why I brought it up to begin with.

It takes TWO to either create a problem,or to solve it!



Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:19:05 AM)

Exacxtly emerald,and that's why I see so much of this coming from insecurity.

If a Dominant simply recognizes what is happening,and tells the sub," I see the game,and I refuse to play."

The game stops. That's called "having spine". And if it means that the sub leaves,that's also fine.

Unless one is so weak and needy that one FEARS not having an illusion of power,or being alone?



darkinshadows -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:20:33 AM)

For me, it would be a definition of the bottom/slave/sub using specific methods to control the relationship against the Dominants better judgement.

Not sure if that helps Riot - only my definiton.

Peace and Love



Fidelity -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:24:14 AM)

And again, I will repeat.

A person who ALLOWS this has no spine. If nothing else works,there is always the option of dismissal.

If One cannot see it as a viable one-what does it say about them?



darkinshadows -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:29:12 AM)

In your opinion - but why does it effect you?
They aren't your relationship. They aren't effecting you unless you submit to their thoughts on the subject. You can call them all the names in the world and dismiss them as spineless all you want if it makes you feel better. But the truth is, thats their relationship, their problem. You just look bitter trying to justify your strength by showing your weakness.

Just as I see it.

Peace and Love



sanita -> RE: Fallacies of "Topping from the Bottom" (8/2/2005 10:30:44 AM)

you know, while i have not counted instances, my perspective is that i see subs/slaves pointing the finger at other subs more often than i see Dom/mes suggesting that someone is topping from the bottom. it seems to be a mini-flame of choice for some people.

but seriously, if it is not what the Dom/me wants, and they can't get that through to their sub, they will hopefully move on. if the sub/slave is unhappy with the level of control, or lack of it, and communication doesn't help- hopefully, they will move on. there is always someone who wants it just they same way you do.

Veav, that scenario was hilarious, btw!


edited 'cause of a typo



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