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Taking what you can dish out - 10/30/2007 9:32:20 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Okay, there are a bunch of related questions in here…   I’ve seen it come up a few times lately that some dominants would balk or break if forced to endure what many submissives do.  I’m curious to see, from both the dominant and submissive perspectives, whether people think it is reasonable to expect a dominant to be able to take what they might dish out.  I can see both arguments: why should a submissive submit to someone who is arguably weaker than they are (if the dominant couldn’t take what they themselves dish out)?; or conversely, why should a dominant be expected to be able to endure something that is contrary to their natural role and desire? 

Questions to submissives: Does a past history of bottoming or endurance of hardship or submissive roles in life influence how much you respect a dominant and how?

To dominants:  How many have, or have at least considered bottoming to get more appreciation/perspective towards submissives?  How many would not consider this and would be offended by the thought? 

Are there any submissives who would refuse to do something if their dominant would not be willing to do it?  Dominants who as a rule would not ask a submissive to do something they themselves would not be able to endure?
 

< Message edited by Tigrita -- 10/30/2007 9:35:00 PM >

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/30/2007 9:43:24 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Various, perhaps random, comments:

Do we expect everyone who drives a car to be able to fix it? Not everyone has the skill to be a mechanic, much less the inclination. There are minumums that we expect drivers to be able to do: gas up the car, keep the car is safe working order and make payments. But even these can be done by someone else. All the driver is tested on is their skill at operating the vehicle...and that works just fine.

Also, you're assuming that being submissive means being a masochist. I know for a fact this is not always the case. I know plenty of Masters who are masochists and slaves who are sadists. I know many of both who only 'do' SM for spiritual purposes, such as hook pulls or ritual piercing.

I have served (non-sexually) in order to help friends and in order to explore myself. I have served as a bottom for teaching purposes and to help a friend regain some confidence and sense of self. None of it really had anything to do with being a better Master and everything to do with being a better me.


Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/30/2007 9:50:35 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita
I’m curious to see, from both the dominant and submissive perspectives, whether people think it is reasonable to expect a dominant to be able to take what they might dish out.

Nope, I don't think that even has to be true of vanilla relationships.

quote:

  I can see both arguments: why should a submissive submit to someone who is arguably weaker than they are (if the dominant couldn’t take what they themselves dish out)?; or conversely, why should a dominant be expected to be able to endure something that is contrary to their natural role and desire? 

That's the thing about consensual relationship- no one has expectations of anything, you get to choose who you are with. 
quote:


Questions to submissives: Does a past history of bottoming or endurance of hardship or submissive roles in life influence how much you respect a dominant and how?

It brings a layout of experience which adds to the judgement process.  But that's something like asking a widow if being married influenced how much they respect other men.
quote:


To dominants:  How many have, or have at least considered bottoming to get more appreciation/perspective towards submissives?  How many would not consider this and would be offended by the thought? 

I'm a switch, but I didn't start to top or bottom to get an appreciation towards subs.  First off, bottoming and submitting are completely different dynamics, so trying to bottom to try and understand submission is stupid.

Secondly, suggesting that how *I* experience submission would be ANYTHING like how another person, even my own partner, seriously experiences submission is also stupid.

Not that it can't be a truly valuable experience for a person to have...just not really for those reasons.
quote:


Are there any submissives who would refuse to do something if their dominant would not be willing to do it? 

Plenty.

quote:

Dominants who as a rule would not ask a submissive to do something they themselves would not be able to endure?

For me, Ds = double standards.  That's how I like it, that's how I live it. 

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 10/30/2007 10:18:48 PM >

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/30/2007 10:05:19 PM   
RosesHaveThorns


Posts: 312
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		I care more about if they are good at what they do, use good communication, and if I like the person behind the dom.

And I have this sneaky suspicion that most dom simply don't want what I want done to me done to themselves. That'd just get boring, fast.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/30/2007 10:10:19 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		I just want to add, I really do see both sides of this argument, my post wasn't intended to be some kind of search for justification, before anyone gets all defensive.  Just the armchair sociologist in me looking for diferent perspectives 'cause I'm bored lol.

MasterFireMaam, interesting car analogy, I do see the value in it.  As far as my assuming that submissive = masochist, I really don't have that assumption, but I do see how my post can be interpreted that way.  I'm talking about any and all acts of submission.  Service, reverence, being put and kept in place of submission that is not necessarily comfortable, but yes, the most obvious manifestation of 'taking what you dish out' is S&M. 

LA, I totally agree about bottoming being completely different from submission.  In fact a dominant I was talking to at one point was trying to convince me of how much more merit he had than others because he had bottomed a few times with a domme to get the perspective of a submissive, and it really didn't make sense to me at first either.  How can he get that perspective just from the acts without the motivation and headspace behind them?  In defense, he said he really did feel a submissive side kick in due to the skill/power of the domme.  So perhaps it depends on the suceptibility of the dominant who is bottoming, and the skill of who is topping them, to perhaps get a deeper dominance and submission dynamic going. 


_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/30/2007 10:21:24 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita
 I’m curious to see, from both the dominant and submissive perspectives, whether people think it is reasonable to expect a dominant to be able to take what they might dish out.

Nope, I don't think that even has to be true of vanilla relationships.
 
quote:

  I can see both arguments: why should a submissive submit to someone who is arguably weaker than they are (if the dominant couldn’t take what they themselves dish out)?; or conversely, why should a dominant be expected to be able to endure something that is contrary to their natural role and desire? 

That's the thing about consensual relationship- no one has expectations of anything, you get to choose who you are with. 
quote:


Questions to submissives: Does a past history of bottoming or endurance of hardship or submissive roles in life influence how much you respect a dominant and how?

It brings a layout of experience which adds to the judgement process.  But that's something like asking a widow if being married influenced how much they respect other men.
quote:


To dominants:  How many have, or have at least considered bottoming to get more appreciation/perspective towards submissives?  How many would not consider this and would be offended by the thought? 

I'm a switch, but I didn't start to top or bottom to get an appreciation towards subs.  First off, bottoming and submitting are completely different dynamics, so trying to bottom to try and understand submission is stupid.

Secondly, suggesting that how *I* experience submission would be ANYTHING like how another person, even my own partner, seriously experiences submission is also stupid.

Not that it can't be a truly valuable experience for a person to have...just not really for those reasons.
quote:


Are there any submissives who would refuse to do something if their dominant would not be willing to do it? 

Plenty.
 
quote:

Dominants who as a rule would not ask a submissive to do something they themselves would not be able to endure?

For me, Ds = double standards.  That's how I like it, that's how I live it. 


I do not know if i really agree with this (That's the thing about consensual relationship- no one has expectations of anything, you get to choose who you are with.  ) the problem is that no one really knows how a realitionship is going to go until you explore it. the dynamics change as you go along. So what may be Consenual now may not be later. Or a person might say something just to get someone to do something or be a certain way minuplation or con
If it is HOnest maybe but sense your just starting out with a relationship how do you know shrugs

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/30/2007 10:21:27 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

Okay, there are a bunch of related questions in here…   I’ve seen it come up a few times lately that some dominants would balk or break if forced to endure what many submissives do.  I’m curious to see, from both the dominant and submissive perspectives, whether people think it is reasonable to expect a dominant to be able to take what they might dish out.  I can see both arguments: why should a submissive submit to someone who is arguably weaker than they are (if the dominant couldn’t take what they themselves dish out)?; or conversely, why should a dominant be expected to be able to endure something that is contrary to their natural role and desire? 


I'm not getting the "arguably weaker" part.  My Master is amazingly stronger than me in many ways.  I have become amazingly strong because of what he dishes out to me.  Should I resent him for that?  I think not.  I don't typically make comparisons between he and I; we are completely two separate individuals and very opposite each other in many ways - for one, he dominates and I submit :)

But he has often said he would not do what I do.  In fact there are certain things I do for him, in which he looks at me with this amazed expression on his face and has later said, "I could not have done that myself."  It's his way of letting me know he recognizes and appreciates the effort I give him, and knows the difficulty involved in some of the things I do for him.

Do I not want to do such things just because they are hard?  No way, I want to do more of it!

quote:


Questions to submissives: Does a past history of bottoming or endurance of hardship or submissive roles in life influence how much you respect a dominant and how?



No, the way he dominates me influences how much I respect him.  Besides, most people in life have endured hardship - what have they done with it, is the real question.

(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/30/2007 10:25:55 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64
I do not know if i really agree with this (That's the thing about consensual relationship- no one has expectations of anything, you get to choose who you are with.  )

Perhaps I should restate:

The thing about consensual relationships is that the only persons expectations you have to deal with are your own. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 1:54:34 AM   
LeatherMessiah


Posts: 2
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		To me, this is a rather odd question -- we do the things we do because they're the things we WANT to do, not because it's "fair" or something...

Now, of course, our wants have a hierarchy -- a sub may not, for instance, really want to have to hold back her orgasm til she gets permission to come, but that feeling can be supersceded by her desire to do what her Dom requires of her -- the lesser want is set aside in service of the greater want...

So, as regards the OP -- why in the world would I, as a Dom, want to "take what I dish out"?  That's not what I'm in the lifestyle for, that's not something I'm interested in doing -- it has nothing to do w/ strength or weakness, & it's got everything to do w/ why I'm a Dom in the first place, what it is that I want to get from the D/s relationship -- I mean, seriously, what's my motivation?

If some sub wants me to take what she does, she's really looking for a Switch, as far as I'm concerned...

-Reuter

(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 1:58:19 AM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

Questions to submissives: Does a past history of bottoming or endurance of hardship or submissive roles in life influence how much you respect a dominant and how?

 
Not in the least.


Are there any submissives who would refuse to do something if their dominant would not be willing to do it?  Dominants who as a rule would not ask a submissive to do something they themselves would not be able to endure?


Maybe some would be but not I, with the caveat that this man knows me, cares about me, and is aware of my limits. (In other words, I don't do casual play or bottom for people I don't know.) I don't see his prior bottoming experience as being pertinent.

(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 2:38:22 AM   
MissMagnolia


Posts: 3636
Status: offline 		Why would I need to know what a submissive goes through? I'm a dominant.

Thats a bit like asking a white person to pretend to be black, to see how it feels, or asking a male to describe the pain of childbirth.

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if at first you dont succeed..then skydiving isnt for you

Resident Whip Cracker AND Resident Orbs Of Joy.


(in reply to batshalom)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 4:33:23 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Questions to submissives: Does a past history of bottoming or endurance of hardship or submissive roles in life influence how much you respect a dominant and how?

No. For myself, a man's ability to take a beating has nothing to do with how much I respect him.

quote:

Are there any submissives who would refuse to do something if their dominant would not be willing to do it? 

My relationships are not based on equality; it's not a tit for tat relationship. For myself, it's all about whether or not he can and will control me; there would be little to no use in wanting to know if someone else can control him in that way.


_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 5:03:14 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline 		I'm a switch so am answering from both sides at once:

I don't see this at all as a dominant/submissive, top/bottom issue at all.  It's an issue of different *people*.  No matter what orientation, different people are going to have different likes, dislikes, abilities, limits, experiences, etc.

I do not expect someone, just because I am drawn to them to top or dominate me, to have the same likes or experiences as I.

Nor as a dominant/top do I feel I need to have the same as my submissive/bottom.

Rather, I think both are a bit foolish and unreasonable.

_____________________________

Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

I generally use fast-reply. If directing my post at someone specific I will indicate so.

Minimal summary: Artist, Disabled Veteran, Vegan, Pornographer, and Agender dominant female.

(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 5:19:21 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

Okay, there are a bunch of related questions in here…   I’ve seen it come up a few times lately that some dominants would balk or break if forced to endure what many submissives do.  I’m curious to see, from both the dominant and submissive perspectives, whether people think it is reasonable to expect a dominant to be able to take what they might dish out.  I can see both arguments: why should a submissive submit to someone who is arguably weaker than they are (if the dominant couldn’t take what they themselves dish out)?; or conversely, why should a dominant be expected to be able to endure something that is contrary to their natural role and desire? 

 
There's nothing that says a submissive "should" submit to anyone (including someone "weaker"... which is an exceptionally subjective term).  Submission is consensual, and that's a personal choice.  If a submissive considers a potential Dominant to be "weaker" than they are, and that is not a dynamic that they desire, they are under no obligation to consent to their ownership.  But having done so, you tell me what is weaker... a "weak" owner or a submissive that whines to others about the consequences of their own choice but without the personal responsibility to actually do something about it (ie: dissolve the relationship)?

quote:


Questions to submissives: Does a past history of bottoming or endurance of hardship or submissive roles in life influence how much you respect a dominant and how?

To dominants:  How many have, or have at least considered bottoming to get more appreciation/perspective towards submissives?  How many would not consider this and would be offended by the thought? 

 
First of all, bottoming and submitting are entirely different (and often unrelated) issues.  Bottoming itself wouldn't be very instructive in the challenges associated with an ongoing power exchange relationship dynamic.
 
Having said that, given the subjective nature of bottoming (or submitting), I don't find any value in doing so myself in order to gain perspective towards bottoms or submissives, or to appreciate the submissive's role in a relationship (I already appreciate it immensely).  It's no more valid than saying that I've owned one submissive, or played with one bottom, and now I know all submissives or bottoms will feel, react, etc. 
 
Still, I'm not offended by the thought.  I simply find it lacking in logic.
 
quote:


Are there any submissives who would refuse to do something if their dominant would not be willing to do it?  Dominants who as a rule would not ask a submissive to do something they themselves would not be able to endure?

 
First, there are plenty of things I would not be willing to do (like submit) that I ask of someone in a relationship with me.  And plenty of things that I do that she wouldn't be willing to do herself.  So if she's playing the refusal game based on that premise, it's time to give her the parting gifts, thank her for playing, and show her the door. 
 
And for crying out loud, I'm Mastering her... not me.  What I can or can't endure doesn't matter a bit.  What if I'm not a masochistic pain slut (I'm not) and she is?  Does that mean we play to my pain level and not hers? 
 
These "democratic" theories about Dominants and submissives are (in my opinion) residual garbage from vanilla society, and really have no place in my power exchange relationship.  Power exchange relationships aren't a democracy, and if I needed something like this in order to justify or validate the control I have in the relationship (and my use of it), then I'd have to rethink whether I belong in that kind of relationship at all.  If they work for others, more power to them.
 
John

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"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Tigrita)
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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 5:34:52 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		MasterFireMaam. Being a better you is being a better Master.

(in reply to RumpusParable)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 5:42:20 AM   
applecandy


Posts: 68
Joined: 10/18/2007
Status: offline 		Coming from a different perspective -

I do believe, as a switch, that my experience bottoming/submitting has vastly expanded my abilities as a top/Domme - but mostly in the physical sense alone.

I'm a firm believer that not only should Dom/mes experience some measure of what physical sensations they're doling out - so they have a frame of reference - but that there should be discourse on WHY these sensations elicit the reactions they do from the person receiving.

I understand that, being a settled switch, this is not a common view, and that's fine. I do refuse, on a general basis, to do things that I don't have some semblance of experience receiving. Just as psychiatrists/psychologists are required to be psychoanalyzed before they practice - to see what it's like from the other side - I find it a good experience to try things myself before inflicting them upon others.

Again - this is only a personal preference. It would not be a deal-breaker for me, were I to be in talks with a Dom/me. To me, though, it shows not a penchant for submission/bottoming, but a willingness to at least give it a sporting try to see what it's like.

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"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -Buddha

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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 6:21:03 AM   
TheChauvinist


Posts: 76
Joined: 10/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: applecandy
I'm a firm believer that not only should Dom/mes experience some measure of what physical sensations they're doling out - so they have a frame of reference - but that there should be discourse on WHY these sensations elicit the reactions they do from the person receiving.
I disagree. How I process what something I use feels like to me would not be the same as how my slave or a bottom processes it. The feelings can be and most likely will be, totally different. Therefore, me experiencing what I use on them is totally useless as a reference.

(in reply to applecandy)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 6:29:18 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		If someone cannot eroticize pain, they are obviously not going to be able to feel the same way about it that someone who does eroticize pain feels. So being subjected to it for more than one test stroke is foolish.

Do I think people should buy a new toy and then whack the nearest available bottom as hard as possible without knowing anything about it? Of course not. Throwing things should be practiced on pillows to learn how to use them accurately. And new paddles, canes, etc ought to be tried out on his thigh so he can judge the difference in pain between the plain wooden hairbrush, the lighter plastic one, and a paddle with holes in it.

(in reply to TheChauvinist)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 6:36:57 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		FR to noone in paticular:
I agree that as a switch, I am aware that I have a good idea in general what it means to submit to certain activities and the significance of certain things to a submissive that I believe are valuable in a top role.  However, even in the same role it may not mean much.  One sub isn't another, therefore, my views and desires in that role are somewhat limited in application to what others feel/believe in that role.

I don't actually think it's possible for someone that's in only a Dominant role to understand what a submissive feels even if they try bottoming.  Can it be helpful for them to understand mechanics?  Sure, having someone else experience a cane or whip can be very valuable.  But if you've ever tried this with someone that's only a Dominant personality, you realize agreeing to be in a bottom role is very very different than actually submitting.  If the mind doesn't go where the body is, the experience is incredibly limited as an empathetic tool and honestly, seriously not fun for either party in my opinion.  

Would I ever personally require a Dom/me to do this or think less of them for not agreeing to it?  No.  Communicating is the only reliable tool for having someone else know what you are going through.  If they communicate well it's much more important than having them ever attempt to switch.

(in reply to applecandy)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 6:43:03 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		These "democratic" theories are hog wash,Why should a DOM have to take what he dishes out????..Since when has bdsm became a democratic society...equal rights for all,next we will see subs and slaves walking the picket line...I am just abour feed up with the turn collarme has taken...

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 20
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