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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 2:30:17 PM

RRafe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

Missturbation and chelle, heehee, I was waiting to see how long it would take to bring that point up! (should subs be expected to be able to dom) Point very well-put. Though, it does seem to me more of a responsibility/necessity of the dominant to be able to get inside the submissives head and understand her more than the other way around. Just being devil's advocate, and I'm not suggesting that submissives should not strive to understand their dominants deeply, and that this wouldn't be most fulfilling for both, it just doesn't seem as vital to secure the dynamic. A submissive doesn't need to know what buttons to push and how hard to push them in order to please a dominant, but a dominant needs to know these things to get the most out of a submissive. But, bottoming may or may not help a dominant achieve that, so... square one.

Gwyn, great post, I was kinda hoping you'd pop in =)

~ J

Why don't they need to push our buttons?

Is the creative input just one way-and if so, how boring would that be?

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Post #: 41

RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 2:46:47 PM

Tigrita

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RRafe, I'm toooootally not saying they shouldn't! I think that makes it much more fulfilling for all involved, just saying it doesn't seem to me to be as essential, in terms of making a D/s dynamic work at the most basic level. But I suppose if the submissive didn't push the dominant's buttons in one way or another, the d wouldn't have much interest in the s, so I suppose you're right. But not all dominants see it that way, not all want input from their submissives.

Haha, whichever side someone takes, I'll pipe up with an opposition, don't take it personally, I just get off on this intellectual banter when I'm in the mood. Thanks for the great thoughts people!

~

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Post #: 42

RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 2:52:08 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

One thing that hasn't been addressed though is life experience. What about military training? Many dominants have military background, understand what it feels like to be 'broken' and built back up, the good, the bad, and the ugly, enduring pain, being taken to a mindset of immediate and almost unconditional obedience based on power and respect, etc.

I do believe that I know as many military men (current or ex) and police officers who are submissive/bottoms as Dominants/Tops. Perhaps a few more. Not a scientifically relevant observation, of course.

Neither does it devalue a military (or police officer) background as related to BDSM. More that it demonstrates that it can be equally relevant to both Top/Dominant and bottom/submissive.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/31/2007 2:53:54 PM >

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Post #: 43

RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 3:55:15 PM

Tigrita

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Rover,

I didn't mean to imply that a disproportionate number of military personel were dominant, just that many dominants do have military backgrounds, and that the military background could be an advantage as a dominant, but not that it couldn't be an advantage as a submissive too, the potential benefits don't seem to be mutually exclusive to dominants or submissives to me. It would be interesting to see if there is any disproportionate distribution though, I wouldn't have a guess either way, it seems equally likely to encourage dominant and submissive personalities to me. Wonder if it has been studied? No time to look it up on PubMed today, but will make a note to do so.

~ J

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Post #: 44

RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 3:58:38 PM

Mercurialdame

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I think to expect a dominant to take a submissive's role, and accept what is dished out aint gonna work. they are not wired that way. So the subjective experience would be entirely different, and probably unpleasant.
Visa versa would be true.

Depends on where your buttons are. Mine are dotted all over the spectrum. His are definately dom side only. I can flog/humiliate/dominate well, he'd take it for me, but coz i know he's getting jack shit out of it, im uninspired to try. I like my partners responsive! Most of us do. Which is why dynamic compatability is a must.

As for would he take to being bossed around like he bosses me? If its appropriate, i can take the lead, but must be respectful when doing so. Or i just hit a brick wall. Bossing him about would be a lose/lose situation. Pointless.

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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 4:12:03 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

Rover,

I didn't mean to imply that a disproportionate number of military personel were dominant, just that many dominants do have military backgrounds, and that the military background could be an advantage as a dominant, but not that it couldn't be an advantage as a submissive too, the potential benefits don't seem to be mutually exclusive to dominants or submissives to me.

Thanks for the clarification. And I would tend to agree that a military background could be beneficial to both Dominants and submissives alike. Which is coincidental (or not?), given that those who gave rise to sustained, organized S/M (and the precursors for all modern BDSM organizations) also had a shared military background.

quote:

It would be interesting to see if there is any disproportionate distribution though, I wouldn't have a guess either way, it seems equally likely to encourage dominant and submissive personalities to me. Wonder if it has been studied? No time to look it up on PubMed today, but will make a note to do so.

~ J

I don't recall specifically if Trevor Jacques covered this in his BDSM survey (sorry to have brought him up so frequently, but it's been relevant recently). But I wouldn't be surprised if he did, given that the survey was in excess of 1,200 questions (or 1,600... my memory isn't what it used to be).

John

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Post #: 46

RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 4:19:55 PM

MistressRouge

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RE: Taking what you can dish out

The above mentioned OP and the way it is expressed, speaks volumes in it's interpretation, so My answer is: why should it matter?

:)

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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 4:26:33 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Because the reality of the scene is that doms are portrayed as brutish monsters barely kept in check due to a long series of checklists, limits, safecalls and constant talking and measurement and that subs are passive mindless sex whore types who don't need to know much other than how to give a blow job and take a whipping.

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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 8:09:46 PM

slaveluci

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita
I’m curious to see, from both the dominant and submissive perspectives, whether people think it is reasonable to expect a dominant to be able to take what they might dish out

I don't. I haven't read all the responses but my gut reaction is "No. I don't expect Master to take what He dishes out." Why should He? To me, that would be like Him expecting me to be able to dish out what I take

. Ain't gonna happen. I have no desire to and would have an extremely difficult time "dishing out" what I regularly take. I don't expect Him to take what I do anymore than He expects me to give what I take. Clear as mud?

quote:

Are there any submissives who would refuse to do something if their dominant would not be willing to do it?

I wouldn't refuse to do something unless it's a hard limit. It would have nothing at all to do with whether or not Master was willing to endure it.

quote:

Dominants who as a rule would not ask a submissive to do something they themselves would not be able to endure?

It has nothing to do with endurance, really. I'd say He COULD endure it, but He simply has no desire to. He routinely expects me to do many things He wouldn't want to do. That's how it works. It's that proverbial double standard LA mentioned

..............luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 10/31/2007 8:10:25 PM >

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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 11/1/2007 5:09:02 AM

MRandme

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Interesting topic.

Not all D-types are the same and not all s-types are the same. What is too hard for me might be nothing for someone else, so how could His submitting to a cane or paddle have any relevance?

Would i respect a Master more if i knew He had tried it? Possibly. But the proper measure of my respect would be in His attitude toward His sub/slave and the respect shown.

i think perhaps the reason that subs/slaves like to think "He/She could never do this" is the sometimes thinly-veiled attitude of disrepect or contempt toward those who submit, as if our natures make us less worthy or 'weaker' than those we submit to. Perhaps the attitude of "You'd never catch me on my knees! No one is going to make me do that!" and the out and out comments of "you are only a slave/sub!" make us wish the Doms/Masters knew the kind of strength it does take to get on our knees in front of them and accept whatever is handed out.

Dominants have a different skillset, different strengths and weaknesses. Submissives do have strengths and weakness too. That switches can do both amazes and impresses me.

The argument that subs are not expected to Dom is not valid. The Doms are the ones with the power in a scene. The submissives are the ones taking the risk, that have to extend the trust that they will not be harmed. Perhaps it would be as valuable for a sub to try Dominating as the other way around. Being able to understand another's POV is always a good thing.

Hmmm. It seems i am able to argue both sides of the issue.

To sum up, no i don't think it is necessary for a Dom to have tried subbing but yes, it would make me respect Him more if He has done so.

g

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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 11/1/2007 5:39:26 AM

Dari

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I can't submit. It's just not in my nature. So "trying out" submission is....yeah. Not so much. Pain does all of nothing for me - so I'm not really going to see if I can take the same number of blows as a hard-core masochist would - so again...not so much.

On the other hand, I tend to make sure I use new toys on myself, even if it's just a couple of times, before using it on my subs. Not because I think it's "fair" but because I have a lot of physical training that increases my ability to hit -hard- and I want to make sure I'm not going to do damage. I'd rather split my skin by accident, than my sub's. (On purpose is different)

This is not assuming that all subs are masochists, but where non-masochistic acts of submission are concerned, this question becomes irrelevant to the point of being silly. For example - yes, I can in fact clean my own house, do my own laundry, etc. etc. So where service subs are concerned - when they're not around, guess who has to do it? Yeah, that's me and my non-independently-wealthy self.

I expect my subs to be strong of mind, and strong of will. And in truth, my subs are who they are and with me because, well - they match me. Not copy me, but complement me - they have strengths I lack, as I have strengths they lack. That's what makes it a good match, in my opinion - so it's not about whether I can do what they can do (why would I want to boss around a copy of me?!), but whether what unique things I can do fit well with the unique things they can do.

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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 11/1/2007 6:59:12 AM

Sabella

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This has been a great topic, thank you!!!

<---also agrees with bipolarber, LadyHibiscus, and CreativeDominant

No I don't expect a dom to be able to take what they dish out. The mindset is totally different. I do respect those who have felt their impliments of distruction on their own person first simply to have the understanding (tho they may not enjoy it the way I do) of how it feels. Is it stingy, thumpy, OMG (*G* loved that, btw) and it's just a good idea for the person using whatever it is to have some real inkling of what it can do and how it feels. Yes it will feel different to different people

but there is a general baseline there that they can relate to right?

I don't think a dom need sub themselves for the experience unless they are so inclined because if it does nothing for them then it does nothing for them. What's the purpose? what will they learn? nothing. Same as a sub attempting to dom. I can top & have numerous times. Did I feel "dominant" when I did? not at all. I was simply performing a skill upon someone who desired it but I didn't have the mindset behind it to take it further than some physical play tho we both enjoyed it.

< Message edited by Sabella -- 11/1/2007 7:00:19 AM >

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