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RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 6:49:01 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		there are both sides in all of us just different degrees.  everyone should understand both sides of them selves
just the way it is

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 6:52:07 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

These "democratic" theories are hog wash,Why should a DOM have to take what he dishes out????..Since when has bdsm became a democratic society...equal rights for all,next we will see subs and slaves walking the picket line...I am just abour feed up with the turn collarme has taken...


Aren't you supposed to be on vacation?  Take a break Bounty, but don't leave.  I for one would miss your input and humor. 

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 7:15:04 AM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

These "democratic" theories are hog wash,Why should a DOM have to take what he dishes out????..Since when has bdsm became a democratic society...equal rights for all,next we will see subs and slaves walking the picket line...I am just abour feed up with the turn collarme has taken...


Wow, as I was saying about getting defensive...

Actually it appears that very nearly everyone, submissives and dominants alike, inspired to reply seems to think that it is unreasonable and illogical to expect a dominant to be able to take what they dish out, with the exception of a few switches who can experience and enjoy actual submission and not just bottoming.

So, what inspired this OP has been a mix of tongue in cheek remarks from cheeky submissives, dominants who seem to want to add to their resume by bottoming, and switches who seem to think that their switchiness makes them better dominants.  I don't really agree or disagree at face value, but I think the scope of what might be gained is pretty limited and by no means universally applicable.

One thing that hasn't been addressed though is life experience.  What about military training?  Many dominants have military background, understand what it feels like to be 'broken' and built back up, the good, the bad, and the ugly, enduring pain, being taken to a mindset of immediate and almost unconditional obedience based on power and respect, etc.  I have to admit, this does add to my respect for them.  Though the context and motivation aren't the same, I think it does give some extra insight and appreciation for the D/s dynamic. 

Just adding fuel to the fire ;)

~ J

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 7:23:48 AM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita
why should a submissive submit to someone who is arguably weaker than they are (if the dominant couldn’t take what they themselves dish out)?


i can't say that i've ever really considered this. Everyone has unique strengths and weaknesses. i'm submissive and a masochist. i want someone who is Dominant and sadistic. As long as they know what they're doing, it doesn't matter if that knowledge came from experience as a bottom or a Top. Yes, i can take more pain than my wife, and i'm physically stronger as well, but that has nothing to do with Dominance, in my opinion.

quote:


Questions to submissives: Does a past history of bottoming or endurance of hardship or submissive roles in life influence how much you respect a dominant and how?


Only in the sense that i couldn't see myself submitting to anyone who was at the same time submissive to another. i know that people do, but it seems wrong to me.


(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 7:44:02 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		The answers to all the questions are the same and I like the car analogy that MasterFireMam came up with.

A dominant is not weaker because they cannot endure what they put another through just as I am not weaker because I could never do what I need and get from my Master. That’s why we search our others out and when we find the one(s) who fit us for this aspect of our lives together. They provide what we need, want and desire and have nothing to do with weak or strong and some abstract concept that would never apply to our relationship.

An analogy of my own, I do not expect a cardiologist to cure me if I have cancer just because they are in the medical field. A dominant and submissive are very different from each other and I think we all applaud the differences.

To me this type of argument goes against one of the problems I feel newbies have at overcoming. That is to accept and understand the person on the opposite pole is in fact very different from you in the aspects of the power exchange and kinks that may or may not be involved and to embrace and indulge in those differences.

Edited not to mangle the language so bad.


< Message edited by toservez -- 10/31/2007 7:56:00 AM >

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 7:59:16 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

Okay, there are a bunch of related questions in here…   I’ve seen it come up a few times lately that some dominants would balk or break if forced to endure what many submissives do.  I’m curious to see, from both the dominant and submissive perspectives, whether people think it is reasonable to expect a dominant to be able to take what they might dish out.  I can see both arguments: why should a submissive submit to someone who is arguably weaker than they are (if the dominant couldn’t take what they themselves dish out)?; or conversely, why should a dominant be expected to be able to endure something that is contrary to their natural role and desire?

 
Not being able to endure a stroke of the whip does not make me weaker than the submissive that can endure it.  It is but one small thing in a broad and varied tapestry that is me and there is a part of me that can endure pain but not relish it whereas the submissive in question not only can endure this pain but transmute it into pleasure...the masochist in her coming out.  If a submissive were to offer up that argument...you can't take what you dish out...I just might point out to her that while she may have been able all she has endured to become a submissive to a dominant, she may not have been able to endure what I did to become a good soldier in the military and rise to the rank I did in 3 years.  Does that fact make her, in reality, a weak person?  No...it is a different area from her wants and needs and desires. 

quote:

Questions to submissives: Does a past history of bottoming or endurance of hardship or submissive roles in life influence how much you respect a dominant and how?

To dominants:  How many have, or have at least considered bottoming to get more appreciation/perspective towards submissives?  How many would not consider this and would be offended by the thought? 

 
I've stated on the boards before that I had a friend who was a switch come to visit me for a few weeks one time.  During this time period, she submitted to me...that was the nature of our relationship.  At that time, I had come out of my first D/s relationship and wanting to expand myself more.  So for one day, I agreed to submit and bottom to her.  I spent a couple of days trying to get into the submissive headspace beforehand and found that, while I could roleplay, I could not get into a submissive headspace despite the fact that I respected both sides of her persona.  As for the bottoming, I enjoyed the sexual aspects of it much more than I did the pain aspects.  I never was able to transmute the pain into pleasure and it was only after the pain stopped and she began to "use" me in a sexual fashion that I became aroused.  I learned from this experience that I do not want to be a submissive, I have no submissive headspace and that I do not like pain for pain's sake or for sexual arousal.  I learned that I can enjoy being "used" as a sex toy to satisfy another's sexual desires but am selfish enough to want my own desires taken care of also.  Has that knowledge been helpful in dealing with submissives?  Yes.  Has it been a major portion of my dealing with submissives?  No. 

quote:

Are there any submissives who would refuse to do something if their dominant would not be willing to do it?  Dominants who as a rule would not ask a submissive to do something they themselves would not be able to endure? 


I am sure that there are submissives who would refuse to do something if their dominant would not be willing to do it.  To put it bluntly, they would not be a submissive for me.  Our roles and wants and needs and expectations are different and should be.  That is what makes the dynamic of D/s what it is...not some vanilla expectation that "my partner should be willing to endure whatever I endure and should be able to understand it exactly because he/she has felt it also".  To me, that is PC BS.  I find it ironic that so many nowadays want to turn D/s into some PC relationship when in all reality, when you sit back and look at it honestly, D/s is about the most un-PC type of consensual relationship possible.  It is not for "I am woman, hear me roar" submissives or for "Alan Alda-wussy" dominants.  Another noted that D/s in many ways stands for double standards and that is true.  While you (the generic you) have the right to define your dynamic the way you want to, expecting "fairness and all things equal" in a relationship that celebrates inequality within the equality and the equality within the inequality is...to me...akin to banging your head against a brick wall.

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 8:04:18 AM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

These "democratic" theories are hog wash,Why should a DOM have to take what he dishes out????..Since when has bdsm became a democratic society...equal rights for all,next we will see subs and slaves walking the picket line...I am just abour feed up with the turn collarme has taken...



sub: You're not the boss of me!

Dom: ~amazed and befuddled look~ What?

sub: I have decided that everything you might do or say to me is a hard limit unless I decide to allow it, of course. If I don't allow it, it's abuse if you do it, even if it's unintentional and you don't know that particular item is on the disallowed list because I haven't told you.

Just consider everything out of bounds if it's coming out of your mind or out of your mouth as an order. If I do, in fact, allow you to order me to do something but later find that this action makes me feel less than domme-like ... uh ... I mean ... sublike ... then it goes on the disallowed list. I may or may not communicate this to you directly. The way you find out what's on my mind, Pal, is from my posts and from the Looks I toss at you when your back is turned.







~trying to not chuckle~

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 8:09:41 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I have bottomed very heavily in the past, because I was madly curious to find out what it all feels like, and because I wanted to see if I could connect with that whole subspace thing.

I found that:  I am not a masochist, but I am a total sensation junkie.  I cheerfully hit myself with every back fling of my flogger. :) Subspace, and all endorphin-related things are not a thing I will ever get to experience.  Piercings, tattoos, heavy scenes, and I got no endorphin reaction at all.  It all just hurts.  Submission?  I am not wired that way.  I can follow the chain of command, but I just don't connect that way in a D/s sense.

As a good example of reading pain from the other side---one of my playmates is just a pal, a bottom who loves to play.  I did the same CBT stuff to him that I did to a submissive and he was  "oh COOL, look at those little marks!" while the submissive was "Mistress!  It's going to fall off!".  Perspective, eh?

Now, Bounty and you anti-egalitarians, please don't take this next bit the wrong way, IT'S MY OPINION as a dominant and a person.  Having experienced lots of stuff, I know how it all feels in terms of sting/thud/omg.  Certainly we all process pain differently but the knowledge of how different things feel has enhanced my play skills, and helped me create better scenes.  Personally, I get a sense of satisfaction from knowing that yes I CAN take it myself, and I know what works, what feels most interesting, and how long you can do Activity X and whether Activity Y is a good idea right afterward or not.  And, I get to laugh unkindly at the ones who act all chickenshit at the very IDEA of bottoming ever. 

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 8:25:49 AM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		MissMagnolia,

Or, it could be more like asking an arcitectural student to spend a few days in a wheelchair, to be more aware of what handicapped folk have to put up with, when it comes to poor building design.

To the thread in general,

Experiencing the same thing as your submissive (or what you expect a submissive to go through) is not a nonsensical notion, but it should probably be considered a personal choice. I do respect dominants who at least know what a flogger feels like, or a cane, or who have been tied into a stress position so they know what the limitations are. But it's not a deal breaker if they haven't.


(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 8:46:14 AM   
applecandy


Posts: 68
Joined: 10/18/2007
Status: offline 		I'm so glad that I'm not alone on this front. I feel that my post may have implied things that I did not intend, so for clarification:

I agree with bipolarber, LadyHibiscus, and CreativeDominant in many ways. It's not even necessarily the headspace that I like to see that a Dom/me has achieved. It's much less than that. I like to know that they've felt the physical impact and sensations that they're giving, so that they have a better idea of what kind of limits to push and such. I've only ever played with a couple tops that hadn't experienced a flogger before, and I do notice a difference in technique - they're not able to be nearly as empathic with their sensation play. They don't have an accurate gauge when it comes to the levels of pain/sensation they're giving.

Again, it's not a dealbreaker. I just feel most comfortable knowing that they have some semblance of an ability to connect what they're doing to me with a specific sensation. If anything, it's made the scenes I've had a bit more intense.

_____________________________

--Hime

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -Buddha

(in reply to bipolarber)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 9:20:37 AM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		toservez, I really like your post.  Very eloquently, put.  I really like that you are always very straightforward yet not defensive or judgemental.  Thanks for being so constructive.

~ J

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 9:24:27 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

toservez, I really like your post.  Very eloquently, put.  I really like that you are always very straightforward yet not defensive or judgemental.  Thanks for being so constructive.

~ J


Thank you for your very kind words as I do try to be positive and not judge. Not always the case as I have been judgmental and attacked on a thread in Ask a Master just today though in fact. ;)



_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 9:32:17 AM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Thanks to all for the great insights and viewpoints.  Sorry I don't have quite as much time as I'd like to respond more, but I'm reading and enjoying all the different perspectives!

~ J

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 10:11:41 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		Submitting pisses me off-no arousal in obeying.

Being bound makes me claustrophobic,I freak out.

Pain gets worse with every strike-Till in find myself looking through a red haze, and wanting to tear off the tops ears.

Discovered this all by bottoming, and trying to submit, many many years ago.

So no,I absolutley cannot and will not take what I dish out. I AM aware of how it can feel for others-but also realize, I am NOT them-so my experiences have little bearing on how THEY feel. I ask instead.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 10:21:37 AM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		I had a so called "Dom" tie me up and whip me with the long silver part of a dismembered umbrella..... I'll just say this....when this "Dom" untied me....he discovered how the business end of that thing felt....LMAO...cause I hit him with it two times...and said ..."What the fuck were you thinking?" He got the point after we discussed it more, i believe he even agreed to try a few things out on himself 1st from then on.... I wonder what hes up to now?...oh well, no matter....just thought I'd share....

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to RRafe)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 10:28:36 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		I’m curious to see, from both the dominant and submissive perspectives, whether people think it is reasonable to expect a dominant to be able to take what they might dish out.
Reverse that question and ask should i as a slave be able to give what i take? The answer for me personally is no. I could not and would not want to top / domme anyone.
------------------------------------------------------
why should a submissive submit to someone who is arguably weaker than they are (if the dominant couldn’t take what they themselves dish out)?
I personally don't think that a Dom not being able to take what they give makes them weak. I couldn't give what i take, does that make me weak?
------------------------------------------------------------------
why should a dominant be expected to be able to endure something that is contrary to their natural role and desire? 
They shouldn't.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does a past history of bottoming or endurance of hardship or submissive roles in life influence how much you respect a dominant and how?
No, never even consider it.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Are there any submissives who would refuse to do something if their dominant would not be willing to do it?
No.

Edited to apologise for crazy font.

< Message edited by missturbation -- 10/31/2007 10:29:54 AM >

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 10:31:54 AM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		I had started my journey as a submissive. I was very young. Thankfuly I had a wonderful Dom ( who is still a very dear friend ) who understood me, and my needs very well. I am both a Sadist and a Masochist. I am also a very dualistic creature. He was able to use that to our advantage. In the end I became a Domme when that part of my nature really came to the fore. Now I occasionaly bottom ( which we all agree is different from subbing ) to people I know very very well.

Having been through both I have an good working knowledge of how *I* felt as a sub, and as a bottom. How each implement felt, the head space it takes you in when you are in that position as a submissive. It has given me some really good tools to use being a Domme to know where my submissives heads may be at.. and what they may be feeling. It helps with my intuitive nature that all Dom/mes need. My personal stance has always been that in life in general I would never ask of annother what I myself am not willing to do. In the D/s or S&M mechanics I have not changed that. I have experianced much as both a Domme and a submissive. It has made me a more rounded person. I like to open my submissive's horizons.. and when they think it may be too much for them to bear, or to withstand I gently remind them that I have also thought that and moved past the fear and aprehension of doing that new thing. It seems to give them a sense that I know how they feel, I care, I will be more careful because I know of the thing first hand... and they know I research things to death before I do anything new.

Should every Dom/me try things from the other side of the whip? Certainly not.  Each person needs to live by thier own nature. However I think any one who cares about thier sub or slave would be wise enough and caring enough to try out things and think of how what they plan to do to, or with the other person possibly going to effect them in the end. Not only phsyicaly.. but emotionaly as well. As was stated not everything is all physical. A huge portion of what was most valuable for me to learn in my time as a submissive was the emotional and mental aspects. Those lessons were very precious to me. You can watch a video, or read a book on technique. No one can explain how it *feels* inside your heart of head to submit.

And by gods if you plan on using a Sjambok.. you'd best use it on yourself first to get a feel for it. LOL

Does a Dom/me need to know that to make them a "Good Dom/me" no. There are tons of wonderful folks out there who do not have that dualistic nature. They do not need it. Why would anyone disrespect and say well you havent been there so I dont respect you. To me that is someone who is a brat. ~ Just my opinon.  

Strength and weakness are in the eyes of the beholder. There are many who view women as the weaker sex.... I say to them go through childbirth and then the raising of at least one child for 18 years. ( not withstanding PMS for at least 30-40 years ) *smiles*

Some think submissives are weaker then Dom/mes... to them I say the it takes a great measure of strength to step outside of ones self, and give freely. To let go of the ego... to become that lump of clay to be formed and sculpted by someone elses hands. to allow someone outside of yourself that measure of control shows a great deal of strength.

Strength comes in all forms... More then I can take a beating or lift that boulder over there.

Just my two ducats... you can keep the change.

Gwyn

**Edited to pimp slap the typo fairy and add a funny bit**

< Message edited by Gwynvyd -- 10/31/2007 10:46:25 AM >

_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

(in reply to petdave)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 12:55:52 PM   
iammachine


Posts: 1549
Joined: 1/25/2006
Status: offline 		As a general rule, I enjoy dishing out a bit more than I am inclined to endure. That doesn't mean that I can't or wouldn't... just that I don't particularly want to. :)

I don't consider endurance to be a measure of "strength" when it comes to D/s. A top's strength is in being able to read a bottom, and inspire them to endure or submit. So a top may not be able to "take" as much pain as their bottom, who has a lot of practice at being on the receiving end of it. Imagine that. Are they still able to make it a pretty thrilling experience?

I think that knowing what it feels like to be on "the other side" can be a useful insight, but it's not one that is mandatory. For example, had I never been a rope bottom, I wouldn't be able to explain what it feels like quite as well, but I would probably be just as capable of putting somone in bondage.



_____________________________

I still hear you scream... in every breath, every single motion

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 1:11:22 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		why does this never get stated (usually as "twue") in the opposite way?

"a submissive cannot submit until they have Dominated first"

it makes just as much sense...

as for the difference between Topping and Dominanting and bottoming and submitting, well, others have already covered that....and unless someone in my head they won't know what a sensation feels like to me...because even identical twins can experience two identical sensations comepletely differently depending on personal experiences, enviorments and numerous other things....

chelle

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Taking what you can dish out - 10/31/2007 2:28:29 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		Missturbation and chelle, heehee, I was waiting to see how long it would take to bring that point up!  (should subs be expected to be able to dom)  Point very well-put.  Though, it does seem to me more of a responsibility/necessity of the dominant to be able to get inside the submissives head and understand her more than the other way around.   Just being devil's advocate, and I'm not suggesting that submissives should not strive to understand their dominants deeply, and that this wouldn't be most fulfilling for both, it just doesn't seem as vital to secure the dynamic.  A submissive doesn't need to know what buttons to push and how hard to push them in order to please a dominant, but a dominant needs to know these things to get the most out of a submissive.  But, bottoming may or may not help a dominant achieve that, so... square one.

Gwyn, great post, I was kinda hoping you'd pop in =)

~ J

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 40
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