Padriag
Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veav
In your experience, is a "yellow/red" system viable - having one safeword that means "too much" and another that means "GET ME OUT RIGHT NOW"? The best of both worlds as ES2 described?
Yes it can be a very viable system along with some others I've seen out there. If a ball gag is being used another favorite I've seen is having the submissive hold a rubber ball, if they drop it, that's the safeword.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MasterTemujin
I think Padriag hits the nail on the head. The only thing that I would add is that it could possibly turn into a battle of wills. This could be completely counterproductive and even dangerous.
Maybe a more accurate description would be a battle of egos... that's exactly what it turns into and I've seen it happen. A dom should not let it happen for several reasons. First, if they take a safeword as a challenge then they're letting that control the scene instead of themselves. If they let the fact that the submissive refuses to safeword control them they've made two mistakes, the mistake of letting the submissive gain control (essentially a form of topping from the bottom) and the mistake of letting a submissive get away with irresponsible behavior. I won't play with a submissive who won't use a safeword, and if during play I come to believe she's refusing to for some reason I'll stop things myself. A submissive who won't use a safeword is being irresponsible, inconsiderate and stupid. Its irresponsible because it puts them at unnecessary risk. Its inconsiderate because its putting the dominant in a difficult situation where they have to figure out if "Stop" really means stop or if its just begging as part of the scene, the dominant carries (or should carry at least) a lot of responsibility in a scene, its inconsiderate to deliberately make that tougher. Its stupid because safewords are tools there to aid both the submissive and the dominant and there's not a good reason not to use them (though I've seen lots of egotistical excuses).
quote:
ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
Now that's just one of the biggest problems WITH using a safeword. There's no pride in using one versus not using one. Safewords are tools, you should be proud to use them as they should be used if you have it.
It's such a bunch of falsehoods to make people feel good about something- somehow making the sub safeword proves a connection, somehow NOT making the sub safeword proves a trust or understanding.
That's NOT what safewords are meant to be for and it's NOT why they are so shouted about here in the scene. Safewords are a mode of communication. Making it a GOAL to use it or not use it completely foregoes the entire reasoning behind it to begin with. Safewords or lack thereof is not a prize or a medal to put on your chest.
Whatever way you choose to play, for whatever reasoning, fine. Pretty much anything can be done in a reasonable and good way, and in an unreasonable sucky way. But making safewords into some sort of symbol of pride completely misses the point (and I don't even have one with the Owner!)
Exactly! Its a form of communication, no more no less... a tool to reduce the risk (it does not eliminate it) in what we do, particularly when playing with someone you don't know well. Its should not be taken as a "challenge", a point of pride, or any other such egotistical nonesense.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Faramir
When you say "we" do you mean some kind of royal we "you," or do you mean everyone needs to use safewords?
I think what he's saying is "we"... as in all of us in this lifestyle, need to learn that safewords are useful tools and learn to use them when they are appropriate. Look carefully at the context Steel gave.
quote:
I play with people I don't know well. I sometimes play with people I've never met. She/he was naked and tied to that frame when I showed up.
That's exactly the sort of situation where safewords are most needed, when they are most appropriate. That said, maybe something needs to be said here about when safewords are most appropriate since there seems to be some confusion about that.
When are safewords optional?
A couple playing in private, if both agree not to use them that's up to them. What you do behind closed doors is your business. But, if a submissive or a dominant want to use them in this situation it ought to be respected by the other. If someone tries to pressure you into not using a safeword when you feel you need one, walk away. Couples who have established play relationships with each other tend to get to know each other well enough and have established play forms with each other which can make safewords unnecessary.
When are safewords advisable?
When playing with someone you don't know
When playing with someone for the first time (even if you feel you know them, you may not know them well enough to know their reactions or limits)
When trying something new that is particularly risky such as the first time you try a single tail, electrical play, etc. If you aren't sure if something is "particularly risky" or not, then you don't know enough about it to not use a safeword.
When should safewords be mandatory?
When playing at public events, play parties, or SM clubs. Some event planners make this mandatory but even if they don't you should. This is as much for your own protection as for that of whoever is hosting the event. Keep this in mind that if for any reason something goes wrong the event host is likely going to bear some of the responsibility for your actions. If someone has to leave in an ambulance the event host could face a lawsuit due to your actions. Anything reasonable you can do to reduce that risk to yourself and to the event host makes you a good guest... needlessly putting the event host at risk makes you a very inconsiderate guest.
We've strayed somewhat from the original topic on to a debate about whether or not to use safewords. Safewords are tools and I hope my remarks above give some generall indication about when they are appropriate. What you do in your own home with your own submissive or dominant is your business, I'm not here to tell you how your relationship should work. When you have an established relationship with someone you can write your own rules and I would hope you have clear enough communication that safewords become unnecessary. If so and you've grown beyond them, good for you if you have! Safewords weren't invented as a tool for couples in established relationships, they came into use at SM clubs for people who had just met and had no idea what the other persons limits really were or how well they could communicate, it was an attempt to reduce the risk in risky forms of play.
On a personal note, I rarely play at events or parties. These days the only people I'm really interested in playing with are submissives I'm building a relationship with. Even so, in the beginning I prefer to have a safeword in place until I feel I know them well enough that I'm confident I can guage their reactions. Once we reach that point the safeword tend to fall completely out of use (its still there actually if she used it I'd stop, but because of better communication between us it just doesn't get used anymore, we've grown beyond it). Some may wonder how you know when you've grown beyond the need... the only answer I know to give to that is that its a personal thing, it ought to happen naturally (don't try to rush it or make it happen) and always remember that you're both adults, whatever happens, you're responsible for your own actions.
Getting back to the original topic, which was sparked by a comment elsewhere another poster made about constantly and deliberately pushing submissive to safeword, I think it ought to be clear that that is not using safewords the way they were intended.
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Padriag
A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer
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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 
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