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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/8/2005 3:27:48 AM

zaynab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

And for the subs....how would you feel if you knew your Dominant was going to intentionally MAKE you safeword and they would not stop until you did?

I dont use safewords. I would feel that there was something wrong with him for wasting our time and would say the safe word 5 seconds after he got started.

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i used to care... but now i take a pill for that

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/8/2005 3:32:17 AM

zaynab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veav

If you want to surpass limits, isn't it better to take a limit and try pushing it that one step further, raising the bar? Metaphor time: weightlifting. If you want to grow, adding a bit more weight or a few more minutes lets you adapt and grow stronger...

Slowly dragging out the exquisite pleasure of the pain.... see? there ya go!!

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/8/2005 12:07:05 PM

Noah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Do you think that it is beneficial to begin a scene with your submissive and have the goal be for it to end in a safeword?

It might promise to be beneficial in some circumstances. Or it might just be fun. It could be used/taken as an aspect of objectification, for instance. On a less subtle level it could be a straightforward way to map out some initial territory with an inexperienced submissive. If she has very little idea what she would in practice like or dislike; be able to to endure or not be able to endure; then she might be escorted down this or that path to the point at which it becomes too steep for her (for now, anyway.) Both partners could benefit in various ways: from pleasures taken along the way, initial or deepening knowledge of the technical matters involved, insights gained in regard to self and partner on a personal level.

Surely it could be beneficial.

quote:

Do you think that it is a valid way of finding limits?

What do you mean by valid? Unless you mean something rather unconventional, I can easily see it being so in some kinds of cases. One or the other party starts out not knowing how many straight pins she can take driven 3/8ths of an inch under the fingernail. After one in each finger on the left hand she squawks at the first one invading her right hand.

But I think that a notion like valid goes only so far here. For instance when the limits in questions are ones like limits to willingness/ability to endure what one doesn't object to in principle then we have to keep in mind that the body and mind change over time. Having achieved a certain level once one doesn't gain from that a persistent right to expect that this level will be achievable on another day, for instance. Conversely on some other day that limit may be exceedable to a great degree.

When the limits in question are moral or ethical the picture changes but I don't see why limits could not be found validly.

With either sort of limit a place could be gotten to where one or both parties came to recognize a limit in a way that was invalid, too. Several posts have explored this.

A question suggests itself here. For those who attest that they will steel themselves to endure anything rather than refuse (say a safeword)--or something along those lines--well, would you really risk certain arrest and prosecution, or loss of your job or home, or radical alienation of your loved ones at his command? Cause if so you sound like a really fun date ... but then I suppose hand grenades might be fun, too.

quote:

Pushing limits?

A valid way of pushing limits? Well for some posters in this thread there is an important sort of invalidity to the whole notion of pushing limits. In a relationship where it is not in principle invalid to push limits I can't see how taking the "go till she safewords" course would be invalid, whether or not it was a good idea for other reasons in the particular case.

quote:

Do you think it will weaken their limits?

By weaken their limits do you mean result in a submissive who is less adamant about this limit or that limit or limits in general? Sure. That could happen. It could just as well make the subject more adamant.

If by weaken their limits you mean something like push this or that limit back, well this could easily happen. This could be a psychological catastrophe or a gratefully accepted instance of personal growth.

When questions are put with a certain degree of broadness the replies will tend to be in the form: "It depends." it is fine to cast a wide net as your broad question do. I wonder whether you will care to follow up with anything more specific.

quote:

Increase their tolerance?

I think this has been addressed pretty much. Surely the approach in question could increase, decrease or leave unchanged the tolerance level in question in a given case.

quote:

Will you do it repeatedly during a scene with breaks in between?

Now here we find a more specific question. Under certain circumstances I think it could be extremely aesthetically pleasing and also deeply meaningful to undertake this sort of repetition. In other sorts of cases it would be ugly or stupid. Presumably there are plenty of other sorts of cases in which the safeword should not be intentionally approach at all.

quote:

Do you think that safewords are to be used as a last resort....to signal actual danger or possible harm...or should they be used as an "I don't want to take anymore of what you are doing and I want you to stop"?

I think that a discussion like this one might help some couples and individuals refine their own sense of how safewords are to be used and it is in those two contexts that the question begins to matter.

I would like to raise two points here. The first is my opinion that the dichotomy suggested here between actual danger/harm and not wanting to take any more might be overstated. Even if from some imagined objective point of view some or all cases could be ruled into one class or the other, is the person who finds herself pushed to the edge of safewording to be replied upon to draw distinctions as fine as this one might be?

The second point has to do with the ridiculous assertion in a recent thread that "No means no." Words mean all sorts of things, including contradictory things. "More pie? Oh no I couldn't possibly, even though it is the best I’ve ever tasted" is one way to say "Yes please if there is enough to go around."

One very conventional use of a safeword is to allow No to be said in various ways and even very emphatically with a willingness to accept it's being overlooked, while retaining a single unambiguous way to decline.

quote:

If you tell your sub that the scene will not end until they safeword, do you think you will get an accurate representation of that limit or do you think it will be used when things start getting a bit tough because they have the idea that the way to end it in this instance is going to have to be a safeword, that thought consciously on their mind throughout the scene?

Installing this or that that thought with the intention that it persist in the submissive's conscious mind throughout a scene seems like a perfectly valid thing for a dominant to choose to do, if I may borrow your word. Some submissives won't like this. Some dominants do things which their partner doesn't like. In some relationships the submissive's whims are not the boundaries of the playing field.

Now a case study.

A top says:

"Say red when you mean red in the sense that we have carefully come to understand in common, and by the way my goal today is to hear you say red."

His partner replies (silently or aloud):

"I will expend all to resist your efforts even to the point of damaging myself or our relationship just in order to subvert your goal."

Topic for discussion (start a thread if you like):

In what way can we helpfully see the second person's behavior as submissive? If you think we shouldn't see it as such, please explain.

Noah

< Message edited by Noah -- 8/8/2005 12:09:15 PM >

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/8/2005 2:56:57 PM

BeachMystress

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What I try to do is to take my sub to their upper limit WITHOUT having them safeword. If they safeword, I've failed. It is a subtle dance and takes a lot of concentration and knowing the person well to get them to just below the point they have to stop. This is a "game"/challenge I do without telling the submissive. I do not want him trying to take more than he can because he doesn't want me to "fail." This is a totally personal thing (no one else knows I've failed if they safeword.. except now you folks, lol), and I use it to perfect control of myself and my ability to observe/assess a person/situation.

And yes, I have safeworded a sub twice. :-( It was years ago with the sub I called Puppy (the one in my video clips), once with metal paper clips in CBT and once using a legree whip on his cock (lol, the whip on the cock was his idea to begin with..) The sub I safeworded spanking with my bare hand, (I'm a wuss about barehand spanking as it stings MY hand.. I don't do it hard) I don't count. He lied to me about what he wanted/liked/enjoyed and safeworded in warm up play.

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/8/2005 3:14:49 PM

BeachMystress

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Oh yes, and for those of you who don't know me, it is easy for me to safeword someone. I'm what some term an extreme player because my play is often sadistic and I'm very creative in how I apply that sadism. I am NOT an extreme player by my standards, because I've met extreme players. I am in the upper areas though, and too rough for many people. I am truly talking about dancing a tightrope when I say I take them just under needing to call things off.

And yes, you can condition someone into being a painslut. The former sub, Puppy, I mentioned in my last post didn't start out as a maso. His first Domme spent 5 years conditioning him to like it. Lust can make a man do a lot he'd not consider. She'd hurt him to the point he'd want to leave, then get sexual with him. Pain/excitement/sex got entwined in his brain. He's hella fun to play with. :-D

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/8/2005 7:23:26 PM

MistressSassy66

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One of the things I like to do is inflict pain,I'm a sadist,no way around it.
I like to push My subs to their limit and just a hair beyond.
I always know when to stop,serious flinching is a good indication it smarts.
I do however make My subs use their safeword so they will say it when they have to, should the need arise.I tell them before hand that they need to be able to say it and that I'm going to teach them to say it.I dont stop whipping until they say it,but while I'm whipping I'm talking to them ...asking are you okay?still with Me?remember what I told you? And the big one...breathe.The subs seem to forget that part sometimes.
I know not everyone works this way.But its worked great for My subs and I.

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In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/8/2005 10:22:24 PM

BeachMystress

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quote:

And the big one...breathe.The subs seem to forget that part sometimes

I've also found that subs tend to hold their breath when you do sadistic play with them. Deep even breathing actually helps deal with the pain. Tell them to focus on their breathing when you're doing play where you're not teaching them to safeword. It will help them deal with more for you.

Also, being a chronic pain sufferer myself (bad knee and back) you can actually learn to "go away" from the pain. Imagine your body is a large house. You have dozens of rooms. If you had someone mowing the lawn behind a large house, you'd move to the front of the house to do your reading. You'd probably still know the irritating thing is taking place back there, but you're better able to ignore it. You use this analogy by consciously moving away from the pain in your body... pulling your awareness up inside your head. I've used this to get myself through a lot of pain, including a four inch needle in my knee injecting stuff that felt like liquid fire and a 6 inch needle in my back in 8 places. It may sound silly, but with practice, it does work. I call it active ignoring.

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/8/2005 11:00:14 PM

GentleLady

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quote:

Also, being a chronic pain sufferer myself you can actually learn to "go away" from the pain.

My mental vision is physically disconnecting the nerves from the source of pain so that the pain feels muffled. Both images can work effectively.

You have made Me think though. I have lived with constant pain so long that I no longer think about how I deal with it. Yet these same techniques would come in handy teaching a submissive how to deal with pain. Thank You for the reminder.

Gentle Lady

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/9/2005 5:54:25 AM

MasterRobert1

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Yes, it's a good idea of have a scene or two in which the idea is to force the sub/slave to use her/his safeword. Think of it as test of the emergency safeword system. I have done this and found, literally, that some subs don't know HOW to use a safeword, or forget it in the panic of the moment. So testing the system is a good idea. A good Dom will know when to stop is the sub in question doesn't use the safeword(s). (I personally have my sub have two safewords: one for slow down, one for stop). Afterwards, you can have a nice discussion about the situation and see what went wrong and how to correct it. Believe me, it's better to encounter and deal with this problem in a controlled situation than it is to encounter it unexpectedly during an intense scene.

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/9/2005 7:58:10 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterRobert1
A good Dom will know when to stop is the sub in question doesn't use the safeword(s).

I love how we create these systems that don't put any actual responsibility into the submissives hands and make it completely the dominants fault for everything. If anything goes wrong, no matter what, it was because the dom just wasn't good enough.

Right.

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/9/2005 8:20:54 AM

OsideGirl

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We have scenes where Master's goal is to get me to "yellow". It is not every scene and it is not discussed before the scene. This is because we discussed it ages ago.

Red to us means end the scene completely. It's not a term I use lightly.

Our view is that it is my responsibility to take good care of his property. A safe word is a tool to do that. The "a good Dominant" routine doesn't fly with me. Bottom line is that chances are that I'll know something is wrong before he does. After all it's my body.

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/9/2005 8:53:44 AM

Fawne

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quote:

One other thing you said that I find very interesting is that you were not allowed to fly. How exactly do you control yourself from going over the edge? I am no more capable of not flying than I am of not breathing. Is there some kind of technique you use?

I fly too. We can go off in subspace and be truly out of control. I can get to where I can't safeword. I'll hang in there, until I can't, its too late. Injured myself or passed out.
I think thats why its called power exchange. Sometimes power is..uh , actually exchanged..

This is exactly where an observant (good) Dominant can play with a submissive he can read and not need a safeword. This takes talent, ability, understanding.

Much respect....

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/9/2005 4:16:38 PM

pandoravampire

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I have a loving trustworthy Dom. He knows me quite well. And i trust him to stop if i can communicate that or if he see's that i need to stop.
-My problem, is on the two occasions when i should of safe worded, i couldnt. I simply could not communicate at the time. In subspace, its hard to difficult to communicate, in a complete head fuck, i find it hard to work out if its christmas or tuesday, let alone, indicating that things should stop! But on both occasions when this has occurred, the after care i recieve, including a post mortem of events that lead to the problem, sorts the difficulty out, and no breach of trust has occurred that may hinder our relationship in future. Dom/me's are not telepathic or perfect, neither are submissives.

With regards to setting up a scene where a subs is pushed to safe word out........
If this type of play floats the individuals boats, then go for it.
As for this type of play enabling a sub to experience things, she is too embarrassed to ask for outright? This to me, is not so good. I value honesty, i value it very highly when communicating bdsm. Surely, if you are strong enough to experience the particular type of play you secretly desire, your strong enough to be honest in your request of this play? I see this as taking responsibility for your sexuality. My sexuality and its satiating, is my responsibility to 'own'. My responsibility to share this knowledge or explore this with my Dominant.
With the puppy play scenario mentioned for example; if im going to be fed my secret desire in a bowl on the floor, and i cant talk about it, but can be pushed to play as a puppy? Im going to have to discuss it after scene anyhow, why not before? How would i discuss a scene with my Dom if i cant 'own' my desire, and verbalise that to him? How will we grow and develope scenes if we dont discuss what was hot, which elements were played etc.
As a top, id be reluctant to play a scene with a bottom who cant discuss it as a adult and own their desires for such a style of play. Id also be reluctant to take a partner who does not have sufficient emotional and sexual maturity to be open and honest in their communication of their desires to me, be that bdsm, or vanilla.
As a 'me' person, i want to know all of my sexuality, why certain things work, which elements of play turn me on, how can i incorporate that into other activities to spice the less spicey up etc.

But once a couple have established a 'new' area to play in, the teasing, the tempting, and the dragging out of the request fullfillment, that sounds marvelous!!!

pandora

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RE: Forcing your sub to safeword? - 8/10/2005 2:11:45 AM

DomButNotForgotn

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Hmmm - the level and intensity of the play really affect how a sub feels, and need for a safe word to end the play.

I have pushed a few subs very hard, but the only time (!) I had a sub want to safe word/stop was after I had fucked her for about 20 minutes!! So I stopped! Then as soon as she calmed down (I guess she had come about 20 times), I started again, and everything was cool.

If the goal is apply pain until a safe word is used, I think somebody is playing with a bad goal.

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