quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

It is simply amazing how if you list links, and the news articles site ( It was Yahoo mind you.. not some politico left or right wing website... ) some goober will still say, eh.. it has got to be BS.

Well buddy, you go out and "beat the bushes" and try to tally up the homeless with a whole team of numerators from the govt. ( Which I have done since I was the only one in the orginzation who had ever had any contact with the homeless volunteering at shelters.) You go work at shelters and see the toll and the effects the wars have had on vets, and why they are in that situation. I have seen it first hand.

Do you care to get off of your lazy boy and your high horse and go make a differance, or is that bullshit too?

Research it, and then go volunteer, write your congress people. Make some bit of differance other then sitting here and bitching about shit.

No wonder America is going to hell in a handbasket. People are too easy to stick thier head in the sand, and mutter thats not true.. instead of getting off thier asses and fixing shit.

You deserve what government you get through inaction. If you arent out there trying to make it better, then you have no right to bitch.


Just my two cents.

Gwyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The lack of curiosity and concern ,is telling.

Is the only reaction to bad news about people we should care for,denial and prevarication?

Shouldn`t we at least,let the benefit of any doubt, go towards finding out for sure ,what the real deal is?

Instead of a neo-con "brush off",and "it can`t happen here" attitude,we should at the very least,find out if it`s true.

My gut tells me,that neo-cons won`t admit to this,even if true.The mind set doesn`t allow for honesty and integrity.It`s more about photo ops and seeming good,rather then being good.

How about this:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/02/11/told_to_wait_a_marine_dies/

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/americas/iraq%20vets%20suicide%20rate%20soars/187325

and

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071031/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_suicide

How concerned does anyone think that  neo-cons/pro-war hacks ,are going be over our GI`s increased rates of suicide?

My bet is they`ll run from this, too.

How come I get the feeling that you could really give a shit less about veterans and their situation, except in this case, in this time, because their suffering furthers your ability to espouse your political agenda?

And - as soon as you have achieved whatever your agenda is -  that your "level of concern" for them will just about equal the level of concern you have for the sperm in the tissue you masturbated into?

Firm

quote:

ORIGINAL: pgashlie

OK, some basic statistics please....

The statement, "1 of 4 homeless is a vet...", is meanginless without some actual data. 
It's the kind of rabble-rousing simplitude that people like to trot out when they need votes or money.

How are they defining "veteran"? And what proportion of the population fits that definition?
(You might also find that, for example, 1/4 of librarians or traffic cops are veterans, if the definition is loose enough... some proportion of pig-farmers are left-handed, but so what??) 

How big was the sample, where was it taken...  was it corrected in any way for "clusters" of vets?

Who are the other three?

And on and on...
There's really no point getting all partisan about a poorly supported claim released into the community with the express purpose of sitrring up excitement. 

And, before somebody bites my head off...  I am not demeaning those who fight for their country, whichever country that happens to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

5.  I'm not sure that American is going to hell in a handbasket, but I think the major problem we have is the inability to think critically, and instead, just reacting emotionally.

Firm

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

5.  I'm not sure that American is going to hell in a handbasket, but I think the major problem we have is the inability to think critically, and instead, just reacting emotionally.

Firm

If you could think critically you wouldn't have faought for your country unless it was WWII. The last time I think the US was fighting a war to defend itself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

5.  I'm not sure that American is going to hell in a handbasket, but I think the major problem we have is the inability to think critically, and instead, just reacting emotionally.

Firm

If you could think critically you wouldn't have faought for your country unless it was WWII. The last time I think the US was fighting a war to defend itself.

That's based on your belief system.

I do not share your belief system.

Mine is superior.  (I'm American, ain't I?  )

Firm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I agree totally, it is much the same here, ex service people are forgotten about, they do largely have mental health issues which do prevent some from re integrating into civilian life.Our MOD seems to regard those broken warriors as an embarassment.

Not only those that see action, there are those that don't, yet on leaving the forces they are presented with a whole host of problems with society outside the camp gates.I know plenty of this latter type who have given a large proportion of their lives in the service of their country only to retire, be made redundant or whatever only to come out and life is definately not what they thought and so struggle to integrate.Mental problems swiftly ensue, depression, anxiety etc.

Forces life institutionalises a person, the order inside is definately nothing like the chaos outside.

Honestly, it is very noble of a person to want to be ready to DEFEND their country, but experience says better to stay out of it.

I wonder though, if the masses did not sign up and become a mass of disposable people in the form of an army or other, would the politicians be so keen to wage war with few able to fight it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

... I'm not dumb enough to be seen dead in a uniform (pun intended) with the political/financial establishment telling me it's all for my country when its really for them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

... I'm not dumb enough to be seen dead in a uniform (pun intended) with the political/financial establishment telling me it's all for my country when its really for them.

It's fortunate for all of us that you aren't in a uniform at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

It is simply amazing how if you list links, and the news articles site ( It was Yahoo mind you.. not some politico left or right wing website... ) some goober will still say, eh.. it has got to be BS.

Well buddy, you go out and "beat the bushes" and try to tally up the homeless with a whole team of numerators from the govt. ( Which I have done since I was the only one in the orginzation who had ever had any contact with the homeless volunteering at shelters.) You go work at shelters and see the toll and the effects the wars have had on vets, and why they are in that situation. I have seen it first hand.

Do you care to get off of your lazy boy and your high horse and go make a differance, or is that bullshit too?

Research it, and then go volunteer, write your congress people. Make some bit of differance other then sitting here and bitching about shit.

No wonder America is going to hell in a handbasket. People are too easy to stick thier head in the sand, and mutter thats not true.. instead of getting off thier asses and fixing shit.

You deserve what government you get through inaction. If you arent out there trying to make it better, then you have no right to bitch.


Just my two cents.

Gwyn

Some points:

1.  I'm calling BS because I can't find the original or raw VA data.  From experience, I well understand that failure to investigate that original study data, and exactly what it means and how it was interpreted leaves you at the mercy of whatever organization reviews it, and the spin that they wish to put on it.

So, since the raw data doesn't seem to be readily available, or referenced on ANY of the websites you have listed, or are listed in any of your sources, other than "data from the VA" this is an immediate red flag.

I'm open to changing my mind, but suspicious enough, and familiar enough with such propaganda techniques that I'm pretty confident what a real evaluation may find.

2.  I'm glad you have made first hand efforts to help homeless people and veterans.  But anecdotal evidence ... isn't really evidence at all.

3.  Just because you list links to articles, doesn't make all the information in the articles true, accurate and/or unbiased. 

4.  I don't have a lazy boy, or a horse.  As far as "just sitting there bitching about shit",  please refer to my above post to meat.

5.  I'm not sure that American is going to hell in a handbasket, but I think the major problem we have is the inability to think critically, and instead, just reacting emotionally.

Firm

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

....are there any figures on the homeless in the USA that stand the FHKY test?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

When one hasn't any other recourse one can question any of the numbers.  That schtick always gets a laugh.  In this particular instance I will support Firm Hand in some measure and I gotta say I would like to see the numbers come from a study rather than  a news article..........not that the numbers whatever they are would be accepted by anyone, but ---

I believe that there is a greater number of difficulties facing returning troops than the population as a whole, among them psychological, homelessness, and so forth...current studies would be nice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

....are there any figures on the homeless in the USA that stand the FHKY test?

quote:

Not to imply that it isn't a worthwhile conversation, but discussing the homeless situation is truly mind-boggling in scope.  There is a great discrepancy in exactly what constitutes homelessness, so it would be an even more arduous task to consider options to address it.

I'll will however concede that your figures (NorthernGent had suggested 700,000 to 2 million homeless) are accurate and perhaps highly conservative.  But I'll also point out that based on the last rigorous attempt to estimate the homeless prevalence in the United States that was undertaken by the 1996 National Survey of Homeless Assistance Providers and Clients (NSHAPC), the findings showed that 80% of those who experience homelessness do so for less than 3 weeks, and only 10% remain without housing for extended periods of time on a frequent basis.

How many homeless veterans are there?

Although accurate numbers are impossible to come by -- no one keeps national records on homeless veterans -- the VA estimates that nearly 200,000 veterans are homeless on any given night. And nearly 400,000 experience homelessness over the course of a year. Conservatively, one out of every three homeless men who is sleeping in a doorway, alley or box in our cities and rural communities has put on a uniform and served this country. According to the National Survey of Homeless Assistance Providers and Clients (U.S. Interagency Council on Homelessness and the Urban Institute, 1999), veterans account for 23% of all homeless people in America. 

NSHAPC was conducted to provide updated information on homeless assistance programs and the clients who use them to federal agencies responsible for administering homeless assistance programs and to other interested parties. The data are national in scope, and the survey is the first to gather through one effort a wide range of information relevant to the missions of the federal sponsors. NSHAPC was not conducted to produce a count of homeless persons. NSHAPC was conducted under the direction of the Interagency Council on the Homeless.

NOVEMBER 7, 2007. For the first time in the history of contemporary homelessness in the United States, the federal government has released national data reported by local communities showing a 12% decline in the number of persons experiencing chronic homelessness in the nation. At a press conference today at the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development and in conjunction with national media attention, including a USA Today article, HUD Secretary and former United States Interagency Council on Homelessness Chair Alphonso Jackson reported that the chronically homeless population fell from 175,914 in 2005 to 155,623 in 2006.