RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred

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Sanity -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 6:37:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Define freedom. What is freedom to you is not necessarily what freedom means to someone else. I'm pretty certain Europeans have different definitions of freedom the ideological American one and our cultures are very similar with the same roots. America is imposing its will on another culture, that is not freedom. Define freedom? Try this: Iraqis can now own cell phones, and connect to the Internet, publish private newspapers and operate radio and television stations independent of the government, whereas they could not before. They're not kept in coffins in a special coffin prison now for months and months for whispering unpleasant things about their god-like leader. They no longer have to erect statues of their god-like leader on every street corner, or have a picture of him hanging in a place of honor in every building. They are no longer fed through tire shredders feet first by their government, they no longer lose their entire village if one shot is fired at a government official from that government. I could literally go on all day, but it isn't that hard to define freedom for anyone whose mind is not clouded by insane hatred for George Bush. America and her allies are not imposing anything on the Iraqi people, meatcleaver - it is a matter of record that the Iraqi people chose for themselves, and they literally choose for themselves every day. Hatred literally blinds people to the truth, as the original post in this thread so clearly stated and as you prove true with every post that you generate. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Yeah, when you have no answer don't answer the question. If you believe Bush, not even he seems to know why he invaded Iraq, his reasons change with the wind so no one else is going to know for certain as no one can look into his head. If there is anything there. One just has to follow the money and the overwhelming interest the Bush administration has in Iraqi oil. The Iraqi oil wasn't a concern of yours when it was a lone ultra-powerful billionaire who was controlling it, when he was using the proceeds to kill innocents by the million. But now that George Bush has taken that oil from the ultra-wealthy tyrant and given that oil and that oil revenue to the peasants of Iraq you are outraged? America is not stealing Iraq's oil in any way. That's more blind hatred, is all I can say. And again, the original post rings true!

Sanity -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 7:10:02 AM)
Did you not see the way meatcleaver latched on to what you said to claim that if Iran is attacked it's because (insert favorite conspiracy theory here)? Of course it's a conspiracy theory. Sure, oil plays a large part in the world economy. But to claim that the allies freed Iraq because Saddam was considering trading oil in Euros when his oil was embargoed is just nonsense. Remember the whole U.N. oil-for-food scandal? Iraqi oil was supposed to be traded only for food and medicine...

farglebargle -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 7:52:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Define freedom. What is freedom to you is not necessarily what freedom means to someone else. I'm pretty certain Europeans have different definitions of freedom the ideological American one and our cultures are very similar with the same roots. America is imposing its will on another culture, that is not freedom. Define freedom? Try this: Iraqis can now own cell phones, and connect to the Internet, publish private newspapers and operate radio and television stations independent of the government, whereas they could not before. http://www.contracostatimes.com/nationandworld/ci_7504787?nclick_check=1 quote: SADIYAH, Iraq -- The water tankers arrive twice a week in this parched village surrounded by fallow fields stretching into the horizon. The town's wells still pump out a flow, but few villagers dare drink from it unless in desperation. At the gate of Kayria Fayhan's home, 250 gallons of the trucked-in cargo fill a metal tank for cooking and drinking, sometimes for washing up if itching from the groundwater becomes unbearable. Even the "clean" water from the tanker is a gamble on some weeks. "They say the water is clean, but sometimes the water is green," Fayhan said. "Sometimes, there's rust floating in it." Despite the fact that Iraqi and U.S. officials have made water projects among their top priorities, the percentage of Iraqis without access to decent water supplies has risen from 50 percent to 70 percent since the start of the U.S.-led war, according to an analysis by Oxfam International last summer. The portion of Iraqis lacking decent sanitation was even worse -- 80 percent. Yup.. Cholera.

meatcleaver -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 8:05:42 AM)
I can't answer, I've been censored and I'm not going to carry on waiting days to reply but what I will say in this last post is this.... The US is in the western hemisphere, Iraq is in the eastern hemisphere if you haven't noticed. The US has no business in Iraq like it had no business in Vietnam. The US doesn't send its military halfway around the world on a humanitarian jolly, it is there for its own interests and if you really believe the US is there to free the Iraqi people you are refusing to use critical reasoning. The US is no more fighting to free Iraqis than Britain fought to free Indians, it is about money and self interest and the US doesn't fucking care who gets hurt in the process. The US should fuck off back to its own back yard and sort its own problems out before it starts on everybody elses. If the US wasted less energy and used a similar amount to the rest of the industrialized world it wouldn't need to go on a jolly to satisfy its material greed. The American ideology of equating the quality of its freedom with the amount of its material wealth (I notice you appear to do that) is basically a fucked up philosophy. America has only ever been interested in freedom of capital, it has never showed serious interest in the freedom of ordinary people, just look at its record in South America. You might fool yourself but you fool no one else. The Iraqi oil wasn't a concern of yours when it was a lone ultra-powerful billionaire who was controlling it, when he was using the proceeds to kill innocents by the million. But now that George Bush has taken that oil from the ultra-wealthy tyrant and given that oil and that oil revenue to the peasants of Iraq you are outraged? America is not stealing Iraq's oil in any way. Bush has not given any wealth to the peasants of Iraq, in fact the US military were more concerned protecting oil wells than protecting peasants so don't expect me to believe in American concern for the poor and down trodden. Saddam killed millions with US and western support and taking the Iran-Iraq war out of the equation, it is now estimated that the US invasion has caused more Iraqi deaths than Saddam. He might have been a dictator but he was supported by America and America and its desire for spreading freedom has a record of supporting dictators. Even Bush, that great freedom fighter (as long as someone else is doing the fighting) has a record of supporting dictators. So don't tell me that your great hero Bush has had a Damascian conversion to humanitarianism, it doesn't wash. The only reason we are being told the invasion was for Iraqi freedom is because the invasion has failed in all its strategic objectives and in order for the US to cut and run it has to blame Iraqis for the chaos rather than accept its own guilt. The US is trying to pretend it did it all for the Iraqis but the Iraqis weren't up to the help the US gave them. Bullshit, the US are there for themselves and are now trying to throw the blame so it can get out and not be blamed for any subsequent blood bath. You will be, you made an ill advised invasion like Vietnam, you lost there because you where there on a lie and you will lose in Iraq because you are there on a lie too.

Sanity -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 8:15:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Yup.. Cholera. So you're arguing that the allies aren't doing enough to help the Iraqi people then? Are you saying that we need to send in more Halliburton - type contracters, and double or even triple our budget? Or are you going to now backtrack, and say that we've been doing too much.

farglebargle -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 8:16:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Yup.. Cholera. So you're arguing that the allies aren't doing enough to help the Iraqi people then? Are you saying that we need to send in more Halliburton - type contracters, and double ort triple our budget? Or are you going to now backtrack, and say that we've been doing too much. We shouldn't have blown up the infrastructure back in 2003 when we invaded. Actually, we shouldn't have invaded, and then the babies dying of cholera wouldn't be on your head.

Sanity -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 8:22:53 AM)
It's not on my head farglebargle, any more than what Saddam did is on yours. It is fitting though that in a thread on the insanity of Bush hatred you try to suggest things like, Bush worshippers are all crazy religious zealots, or that Iraq was a paradise before I (Sanity) personally started killing all of their babies...

farglebargle -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 8:50:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity It's not on my head farglebargle, any more than what Saddam did is on yours. YOU are responsible for EVERY SINGLE CASUALTY caused after your invasion. If you didn't want to be responsible for Iraq, you shouldn't have invaded and occupied it. Prior to YOU taking responsibility, it was Hussein's responsibility. But when you overthrew Hussein... Well, "You break it... You bought it" springs to mind.

Sanity -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 8:55:53 AM)
And I take that responsibility very seriously, too. quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle YOU are responsible for EVERY SINGLE CASUALTY caused after your invasion. If you didn't want to be responsible for Iraq, you shouldn't have invaded and occupied it. Prior to YOU taking responsibility, it was Hussein's responsibility. But when you overthrew Hussein... Well, "You break it... You bought it" springs to mind.

Real0ne -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 9:04:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Did you not see the way meatcleaver latched on to what you said to claim that if Iran is attacked it's because (insert favorite conspiracy theory here)? Of course it's a conspiracy theory. Sure, oil plays a large part in the world economy. But to claim that the allies freed Iraq because Saddam was considering trading oil in Euros when his oil was embargoed is just nonsense. Remember the whole U.N. oil-for-food scandal? Iraqi oil was supposed to be traded only for food and medicine... Might want to take a look at what happened when chavez threatened to sell oil in euros, (insert favorite lead head propaganda here).

luckydog1 -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 11:18:27 AM)
Sanity, you are not quite right about this. In Oil for Food, Cash (dollars)were payed into an account, which was then used to buy approved items (food and medicine). Saddams plan to break the Petrodollar was indeed a part of the reason he was a threat to us. It was a very serious threat.

caitlyn -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 11:31:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Why do you characterize my dislike for Bush's actions as hatred? I didn't. I used the term hatred and anger - hatred because it was in the topic line; anger because it was in the post I was responding to. If you don't feel hatred or anger, then my contribution to this debate, does not apply to you. As a general principle, hate and anger based politics are not exclusive to any party ... they make no sense to me, no matter which politician is the targer.

Sanity -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 11:54:27 AM)
I just don't see it. The sanctions were draconian, and there was no end to them in sight. If it were a reason for the invasion, logic strongly suggests that it would have been towards the end of the very long list. quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Sanity, you are not quite right about this. In Oil for Food, Cash (dollars)were payed into an account, which was then used to buy approved items (food and medicine). Saddams plan to break the Petrodollar was indeed a part of the reason he was a threat to us. It was a very serious threat.

luckydog1 -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 12:24:13 PM)
The sanctions were falling apart, and being flouted regularly. Several Security Council nations were taking bribes and cutting deals for the post sanction era. I saw it as a real and tangible threat to the USA.

farglebargle -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 1:03:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 The sanctions were falling apart, and being flouted regularly. Several Security Council nations were taking bribes and cutting deals for the post sanction era. I saw it as a real and tangible threat to the USA. You saw the failure of the UN Sanctions against Iraq as a real and tangible threat to the USA? I don't understand how that could possibly be. Their economy was miniscule compared to the USA. Their military negligable compared to the usa. How can they be a real and tangible threat? They're not going to drive T-72s down the Adirondack Northway from Canada, or over the border from Mexico, and I just don't see the Crack Republican Guard Paratroopers really taking DC.

luckydog1 -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 1:07:07 PM)
farg, you can't read these posts in isolation, they are part of an ongoing discussion. What you are commenting on was me expounding on a previous point. But you know that, am I to assume you are trying to misrepresent in order to have something to criticise? Does Hate leave you with so few options that you have to keep resorting to this one?

farglebargle -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 1:11:20 PM)
"Saddam's plan to break the Petrodollar was indeed a part of the reason he was a threat to us. It was a very serious threat. " That's still hogwash. The problem is with the Petrodollar, not Iraq or OPEC. The USA chose to put itself in the position of being someone else's whore, when it chose to go down the oil road, and not replace oil with the alternatives we've been technologically able to exploit for the past 20 years. Whether it's whining about the sanctions not working, or the Al Queda threat level ( it's "Exaggerated" today ) , no-one wants to step up and admit responsibility for the failed US policies which lead us here.

luckydog1 -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 1:14:22 PM)
Yes farg, I realise you want to break the dollar and smash the USA. The thought makes you giddy for your hell of a show. Those of us who do not want to see the fall of America, saw it as a serious threat, I guess you saw it as a missed opprotuntity.

farglebargle -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 1:19:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Yes farg, I realise you want to break the dollar and smash the USA. Actually, I wanted my children to own the stars. At the rate we're going, the only way any American Kids will be working in space, is as Chinese Contract Labor and Comfort Women. Thanks USA. You COULD HAVE had it all for less than you wasted on the Iraq invasion and occupation using 1987 technology. Fucking idiots and their damn addiction to oil, and the profits it made them at the price of the Universe itself. quote: The t]ought makes you giddy for your hell of a show. Those of us who do not want to see the fall of America, saw it as a serious threat, I guess you saw it as a missed opprotuntity. Shouldn't you have fixed your broken economy, which poses a real threat to National Security, instead of whining about it? Maybe the dollar wouldn't have been in such bad shape if it was used to trade {SolarDollars} instead of {PetroDollars}? And we would have built the moon colonies on 3rd shifts and weekends....

luckydog1 -> RE: The Insanity of Bush Hatred (11/21/2007 1:31:09 PM)
Yes more science fiction....Exactly how would a Solar dollar work? Your idea of militarizing space <Giant microwave lazers> simply is not reasonable, despite it working in a book. BTW you have many times put the problem at the Civil war or even the signing of the Constitution, Fucking Hamilton right?. you are simply blowing smoke. People have to eat today and tomorow, so we need energy today, billions of lives depend on it.

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