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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 6:39:45 PM

mnottertail

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LOL, ex BAC and -----------just LOL

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 6:50:29 PM

Nosathro

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Actually this is all very legal. This has gone up to the Supreme Court and back again many times and has been upheld. The parent or legal gurdian of a minior child can give law enforcement permission to search minors' room without a search warrant. Here is another one, got someone living with you on Parole or Probation? If they have Court Ordered Search and Seizure as a condition of their Parole or Probation? Law enforement can come to your house and search the place at any time of day or night, no warrant needed. I use to do it at around 5 am.

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 6:57:29 PM

kc692

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

All I know is I'd let you in without a warrant.

Kisses to you girlie!!!!

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 6:58:56 PM

BruisedHick

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If the parents consent, sure! It's their damn house! But if the parents politely decline, what then? Would that make anyone more suspicious? Would that end up being an unofficial cause for a warrant?

It's easy to hammer around on having the right to decline; the fear (even if irrational) of complications may lead some to agree despite knowing their rights. And then the cops see the pipe on the table, or smell the weed, and have cause to get a warrant.

All seems like a good way to get into people's houses without a warrant.

Yours,

benji

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:06:47 PM

kc692

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

Agreed. And you know, My dear friend, if this was being approached in another way, I honestly would not have aproblem. For instance, if the police were working together with the local community and offering to "help" upon invitation. They can say they are available to search homes upon request I just don't like the fact that they are inviting themselves, and I especially don't like that there are people who think this is perfectly acceptable. It is the presumption, yet again, that people are too stupid to realize what is good for the, so Nanny will do it for them.

quote:

But Davis said the point of the program, dubbed Safe Homes, is to make streets safer, not to incarcerate people.
"This isn't evidence that we're going to present in a criminal case," said Davis, who met with community leaders yesterday to get feedback on the program. "This is a seizing of a very dangerous object. . . .
"I understand people's concerns about this, but the mothers of the young men who have been arrested with firearms that I've talked to are in a quandary," he said. "They don't know what to do when faced with the problem of dealing with a teenage boy in possession of a firearm. We're giving them an option in that case."

I disagree that they are giving them an option. I see it as deciding that the mothers are not doing anything or are incapable of learning how to handle it, so the police will. Not by offering assistance if requested, or a special community awareness program that is optional, but by stating "we are going to do this to make sure the streets are safer, and you have the right to not let us, but..."
And people allow it to happen, because they have become unable to not depend on the government to take care of everythjng and keep everyone safe.
In St Louis, it appears the program started to fall apart because funding ran out, and the support was waning, especially in view of the fact that police began using their own intelligence, as opposed to offering a "public service" and relying on neighborhood tips. We are very fortunate in this country that we take for granted that they cannot do this without our permission. As long as permission continues to be given, little by little, we are then only one step away from losing the freedom altogether.
It worries Me.

It is not that I disagree with you, Diva, I don't guess there is a lot different in our views. I do also definitely agree that the authorities should offer their help by invitation, but in examination, I suppose that possibility is always there also. If I were to have called the police when my son was at home and told them he had a firearm hidden they would have rushed out. Sometimes the parents don't know though, what their children are doing, and it is an utter shame that we can't trust the authorities to not overstep our liberties, and offer help to those that may not be aware, but instead to possibly bully and badger the parents on a possibly flawed perception.

I guess that I was trying to be optimistic that people would know their rights? That lack of knowledge in and of itself is also a grave travesty, and bespeaks volumes about our nation. There is no way to stop them from trying to investigate, and trying to stop the problem of the guns, but I also know that I would not want to be in the parents' shoes when that knock came on the door. The only partial solution is to get out to the poorer neighborhoods information as to what their rights are, and there is no way to truly accomplish that. I was not meaning to make light of the situation, it is disheartening, but knowlege on the parents' part is a necessity to make it stop.

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:10:29 PM

kdsub

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Yes all of us true patriots are terrified of the American Gestapo. I have weed…guns…crack…bloody knives…dead bodies lying around the house all the time….damn if I open the door they may see and get a warrant…how dare they!!!!
I want a warrant for the firemen too they are nothing but Gestapo informants….don’t get me started on those damn paramedics…always giving my records to the insurance companies…

OH YEA no vaccinations for my kids…I know they are really just sterilization my offspring with mercury.

Excuse me the FBI is at my door…I wonder what they what… I’d like to talk more but I have to hide my dead bodies.
Butch

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:12:03 PM

kc692

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Actually this is all very legal. This has gone up to the Supreme Court and back again many times and has been upheld. The parent or legal gurdian of a minior child can give law enforcement permission to search minors' room without a search warrant. Here is another one, got someone living with you on Parole or Probation? If they have Court Ordered Search and Seizure as a condition of their Parole or Probation? Law enforement can come to your house and search the place at any time of day or night, no warrant needed. I use to do it at around 5 am.

Now that's scary....you have a relative or friend trying to get back on their feet and you have no say whether police can enter your home, that is yours and not theirs? You are not, after all harboring a fugitive. The property belongs to you. You are saying there is no warrant needed then? I hope that never happens to me, because I would hate to test that theory, truly.

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:14:33 PM

GoddessDustyGold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

GoddessDustyGold ....I’m from St. Louis and I don’t remember a program like that… could be but I don’t remember it.

Please read the linked article in the OP in its entirety. There is plenty of information regarding the St Louis Program included. It has been defunct for some time, but it was happening and many weapons were seized. Also 98% of the people who had their doors knocked upon, allowed the entrance and the search. *Shrug* That shows a pretty high tolerance.

quote:

I just don’t understand what the problem is with this type of request … It is voluntary and there is a reason for it.

It is a request today...it is a power tomorrow. As I said, if a public service was being offered with support and education, and people could ask for the assistnance in a search, that would be one thing. To have the police in certain neighborhoods knocking on doors under the guise of "making the streets safer" is another thing entirely.

quote:

The very people that are against this type of law will be the first to criticize a police force when some nutty kid blows his friends away at school or the playground. If they knocked on my door I’d be glad to show them in...Hell I’d even lie out my paddles and dildos for them.

I, for one, do not believe that. What I will criticize, when a nut job goes into a school, is the lack of internal security and the false security that is offered by disallowing a responsible adult to be capable of defending against the nut case. "Gun Free Zone" only means that the law abiding people will not have a means of defense. I never saw one of those signs/rules stop the "nut"
As an aside, be careful about putting your paddles and dildos on display. In some states these sex toys are illegal, and they might be seized while you are being cuffed and taken to be fingerprinted as a sexual deviant. It happened to a woman who had her inventory for her "parties" but some in her town lodged complaints and they got her on the technicality that she was not selling them as novelties, but as sex toys. *Gasp* In some locales, owning or being in possession or more than a certan number of sex toys is illegal.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/02/11/obscenity.trial.reut/

quote:

I also see nothing wrong with a national ID… it could replace all the various numbers I have to keep track of.

How many numbers do you need to keep track of? We already have a national ID. It is called a social security number, and we now have to number our babies as soon as they are born. I certainly hope you are not talking about bank accounts, or phone numbers, or addresses, or driver's licesne numbers. At least in Az I can still opt out of using My SS# on My DL. If I need that number, it is in My wallet and I can read it. But I only need it for the DMV. No one else should have it anyway. It is when we start accepting that all of our personal, financial, medical and work information can all be filed under one number that we will truly be in trouble. We already have allowed our privacy to be compromised, bit by bit. It is so easy to not even think about it until it is too late. The social secuirty number was never meant to be used as a standard form of identification. It slowly crept up, and now we just accept that it is on everythingwe do. I had to give it to the new medical specialist I had to see last week! Why? What does he need with it? That's an honest question, by the way.

quote:

If I receive repeated phone calls from Iran I should be checked out…hell if I received them I would be reporting them…Damn have some trust!!!

Sorry, but blind trust is no longer My forte. I have seen too many of our freedoms being slowly eroded away over the last many years, and this is just one more. The fact that they come with the blessing of the public does not make Me feel any more confident. And it is all done under the premise that this is what is good for us, and/or this is what will solve the problems or make us safe, yada, yada.

quote:

Yes I want my guns but I’m not worried about my own government attacking me…I’d be a hell of a lot more worried about a civil liberty nut going off the deep end like they often do… too many fanatics in this world. My guns are for hunting and to blow the head off a burglar…I don’t need a concealable handgun… machine gun… or tank… my legal anyplace shotgun will do just fine.

You have the right to your legally owned guns because the founders of this country and the writers of our constitution foresaw that the people might need those guns to defend not only themselves against those who would do harm, but against the governement and it's law enforcers themselves. Would you like to lose that right? Don't take it for granted. It would be oh so easy!

quote:

Butch

Nice to meet you, Butch...I have read your posts with interest.

GDG

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 11/17/2007 7:21:12 PM >

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:17:33 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
Remember this is probably going to take place in poorer neighborhoods where people dont know all their rights.

My experience with "poorer neighborhoods" is that the people know all about their rights. It's their responsibilities, such as raising decent kids, that they are clueless on.

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:19:33 PM

kc692

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I totally agree with You about one number, Diva, that is definitely giving too much of my personal information up.

GDG, on a lighter side you may want to go read my journal tonight, I think it is entertaining and funny!!!!( I could be wrong, but I think you will find it humorous)

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:22:10 PM

kdsub

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I read yours as well GoddessDustyGold and they are always thoughtful...I think we will just agree to disagree.

But...A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed....

Says nothing about protecting ones self from law inforcement..or as you say "against the governement and it's law enforcers themselves"

PS ...To have the police in certain neighborhoods knocking on doors under the guise of "making the streets safer" is another thing entirely.

Why must it be a guise?

Yes I would like every person in this country to have an ID... and have stringent penalties for illegal forgeries.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/17/2007 7:30:46 PM >

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:27:38 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Standard rule in my home is, if law enforcement of any kind asks to enter for any reason, the answer is always no. I have even sat for two hours on the side of the interstate, while they dismantled the interior of my car, because I refused to allow search when I was pulled over for following too close.

What is that quote about giving up liberties for the sake of security, and in doing so you do not deserve either one?

Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So if a cop comes to your door and asks to search your teenager's room to see if he or she is hiding a gun, do you let him in? That's what a new program (called "Safe Homes") police in Boston plan to do to prevent school shootings and take guns out of kid's hands

...all without search warrants. Apparently they think parents are too afraid to search their own teen's room, so they may allow police to do it.

Civil liberty groups are already crying foul...."Our biggest concern is the notion of informed consent," said Amy Reichbach, a racial justice advocate at the American Civil Liberties Union. "People might not understand the implications of weapons being tested or any contraband being found."

Police will rely primarily on tips from neighbors. They will also follow tips from the department's anonymous hot line and investigators' own intelligence to decide what doors to knock on.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/11/17/police_to_search_for_guns_in_homes/

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:28:28 PM

tasha_tart

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BruisedHick

If the parents consent, sure! It's their damn house! But if the parents politely decline, what then? Would that make anyone more suspicious? Would that end up being an unofficial cause for a warrant?

Of course it would. Law enforcement, here in Canada at least, takes any exercise of one's rights as a de facto admission of guilt.

It's easy to hammer around on having the right to decline; the fear (even if irrational) of complications may lead some to agree despite knowing their rights. And then the cops see the pipe on the table, or smell the weed, and have cause to get a warrant.

It doesn't have to be drugs or drug paraphernalia. Aren't sex toys still illegal in some jurisdictions?

All seems like a good way to get into people's houses without a warrant.

Yes, it sure does. And if one buys "This isn't evidence that we're going to present in a criminal case," then I have a bridge I want to sell you!

Yours,

benji

Of course, I shouldn't get too huffy about the practices of a police force south of the border; here in the Great White North, we Taser® people to death for speaking Polish.

Tasha

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:28:30 PM

satyrne07

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yes, privacy can be a delicate thing to presume. For example, I believe that in some states, at least, if you have a roommate, they can grant permission for the police to search YOUR private things because by some leap, it's only the outside envelope that is private. The roommate has the right to let them in the house/apartment and once inside they have the "right" to search anywhere.

So, don't piss off your roommate by blasting the music in your meth lab all night.

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:33:42 PM

GoddessDustyGold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Actually this is all very legal. This has gone up to the Supreme Court and back again many times and has been upheld. The parent or legal gurdian of a minior child can give law enforcement permission to search minors' room without a search warrant. Here is another one, got someone living with you on Parole or Probation? If they have Court Ordered Search and Seizure as a condition of their Parole or Probation? Law enforement can come to your house and search the place at any time of day or night, no warrant needed. I use to do it at around 5 am.

What is happening here is a presumption of probable cause based upon the neighborhood program and a tip line. Even then I would guess that it is all supposed to be happening in a very friendly and non-threatening manner. It still doesn't make it alright for Me. The police do not need more power. They already have enough.
Yes, the parent or a legal guardian has to give permission for the police to enter and search. I am thinking that you are referring to a minor who brought suit regarding a legal search without a warrant because the permission was obtained from the parent/legal guardian. Please correct Me if I am wrong in that assumption. In that instance I doubt that the police were canvassing the neighborhood and knocked on the door stating "We were in the area and thought we would drop by and search for any illegal firearms. Your name and address came up on our tip line. Why don't you put on the coffee?"
With regard to the parolee or probationer, the household should know what they might be subjected to and then they have to make a decision of they can live with this invasion of their privacy because, by extension, they are going to have to be involved in that part of the rehabilitation. In most instances, unless the parolee has evidenced a reason for this to happen, it probably won't. The police will be too busy visiting the other neighborhoods, where the only probable cause has to be the address.
I might be your address next! Muwahahahaha!

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:34:48 PM

BruisedHick

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Yes, but by letting them search, they would be implicating themselves at least partially.

Think about it.... how do you prove that all the drugs in the house are the other guys?

Yours,

benji

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:42:46 PM

GoddessDustyGold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kc692

GDG, on a lighter side you may want to go read my journal tonight, I think it is entertaining and funny!!!!( I could be wrong, but I think you will find it humorous)

Why, LadyK! You know that your journal entries come directly into My private email as a faithful subscriber! *Smile* I look forward to reading!

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They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:44:01 PM

kc692

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CRS disease, smiles, sowwy!!!!!!!!

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:44:33 PM

GoddessDustyGold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BruisedHick

Yes, but by letting them search, they would be implicating themselves at least partially.

Think about it.... how do you prove that all the drugs in the house are the other guys?

Yours,

benji

OMG! benji?
We have missed you and your name has come up more than once as we wondered!

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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:50:04 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

What is that quote about giving up liberties for the sake of security, and in doing so you do not deserve either one?

Not sure if you were asking rhetorically, Orion, but just in case you weren't:

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759

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