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RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 7:57:55 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Thanks DC. It was more a provocative question, than a rhetorical one. You should wander over into the Gorean section and join in some of the debates on virtues, morals, and ethics.

Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

What is that quote about giving up liberties for the sake of security, and in doing so you do not deserve either one?

Not sure if you were asking rhetorically, Orion, but just in case you weren't:

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 41

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 8:11:04 PM

kc692

Posts: 3701
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

ORIGINAL: BruisedHick

Yes, but by letting them search, they would be implicating themselves at least partially.

Think about it.... how do you prove that all the drugs in the house are the other guys?

Yours,

benji

OMG! benji?
We have missed you and your name has come up more than once as we wondered!

LOL, I emailed him earlier and told him the same thing!!!!! It is good to have him back, although I think we may see a different side of him(at least a little bit) then what we have seen in the past. I hope we don't totally lose sight of the old side though!!

_____________________________

Anyone can overpower; not many can INSPIRE.....

This is only MY opinion. If it's not yours, let's agree in advance to agree to disagree, OR, you can just get the fuck over what I had to say:)

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 42

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 8:22:49 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I read yours as well GoddessDustyGold and they are always thoughtful...I think we will just agree to disagree.

But...A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed....

Says nothing about protecting ones self from law inforcement..or as you say "against the governement and it's law enforcers themselves"

The state refers to the government and the enforcers of that government. What is the militia defending against if not the loss of freedom to the governement and the enforcers?

PS ...To have the police in certain neighborhoods knocking on doors under the guise of "making the streets safer" is another thing entirely.

quote:

Why must it be a guise?

For the moment I would posit that it is not necessarily a guise. Meaning that I can't be sure that someone somewhere has not thought this through and is introducing this "Safe Streets" program with an eye toward it being a first step in fulfilling a more dangerous agenda. But power does corrupt. Perhaps it is, at the moment, just an idea with no real long term agenda. But the very fact that the artticle refers to "seizing a very dangerous object" gives Me a clue to at least a subconscious agenda. We are more than aware that there are many in this country who are completely for gun control. The quote states that they are "seizing a very dangeorus object". I said..."today a request...tomorrow a power". Once this "request" becomes completely acceptable, then it is not hard to turn it into something else. Those in power may see and may use it as a precedent to force more "cooperation". No problem expanding the neighborhoods. After all, we want all the streets to be safe, don't we? Ya know...give them an inch and they'll take a yard.
I tend to look at things at a very basic level. So I do not let one thing go because it might not affect Me personally, and then object when something else comes along that does or that I disagree with. I see the potential long terms consequences and I react to that.

quote:

Yes I would like every person in this country to have an ID... and have stringent penalties for illegal forgeries.

Why would you believe that there will be stringent penalties for a forged national ID card? We do not have stringent penalties for being in this country illegally...we do not have stringent penalties for hiring illegal aliens. Why would we have stringent penalties for this? Because I can guarantee you that if we did have a National ID, those that needed a forged one would be able to get it by the second day. So what precisely is the purpose of this National ID you are so gung ho for?

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree!

Well, My neighbors are having a huge party, and they are now blasting stripper music in their back yard, so I have to go peek over the fence, in case I a missing something really good! Yes, I am going to invade their privacy. But all for a good cause! My entertainment!

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 43

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 8:26:58 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

It's a s-l-i-p-p-e-r-y slope.
"All the other neighbors let us in why won't you, you got somthing to hide!"
They've been having a lot of shootings in Boston over the last 3 years.
I read The Boston Herald everyday online.
And it is in the poorer minority neighborhoods that they're doing this. These are the neighborhoods where they NEED guns!
And these pricks are trying to take them away? Where do they think they are, New Orleans?
Do they think they could get away with this shit in Brookline or Beacon Hill where all the lawyers and their families live? Fat chance! They'd be sued and served with cease and desist orders!
And whenever there's a shooting invariably they have a picture of a woman saying; "we need more government "programs!"
They always want "more programs!"
Here's a "program" for them, how about getting the kids in the house for supper at 5 or 6 and then two hours of homework?
And then bed at 9 like all the other kids.
How's about we don't see 10 year old kids out on the streets at 11 pm when all the shootings happen? On a SCHOOL NIGHT no less!
And how's about we see more than a 50% graduation rate among these kids?
And how's about some responsible Parenting?
Those things would do more good than any government "program".
Of course the "neighborhood organisers" would have to actually get a *job* with no "program money" comming in.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/17/2007 8:29:32 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 44

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 8:43:26 PM

JackM1

Posts: 137
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline

so, at the school in my town(which i recently graduated from) there was a threat(on a porn website, of all places) of a shooting at the school; someone said that they would shoot their girlfriend and anyone that was in their way, which ment lots of people considering that our school has so many students. although i dont think its RIGHT that they search without warrents, if there is probable cause then by all means. its not different than the principal being able to search their bookbags or lockers if someone accuses them of possessing drugs(credible accusation, of course. if they seriously say they have drugs in their locker than they have to investigate, but they tell the student who was accused ahead of time, so they could contest it or what not). i think if their name was mentioned or they can trace back the trail to that person, then by all means...search the bastard. but at the same time, with all that information they could get a search warrent. i think they're only trying to do this because some accusations or suspisions are so weak that they couldnt possibly get a warrent to search for a weapon ANYWAY, so theyre trying to bypass the law so they (unlawfully) get their suspect. i dont really see any other reason for them not to get search warrents. its not like they have to tell the person that a search warrent is being processed towards them or anything.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 45

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 9:09:42 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

GoddessDustyGold

You asked…”What is the militia defending against if not the loss of freedom to the governement and the enforcers? “

The US constitution amendment 2 provides for a militia….it also states its purpose…to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; — U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sec. 8, Cl. 16.

Nowhere does it state government and enforcers.

Just for my convenience and to aid in security I would like a national ID. If it were to be of any use there would need to be severe penalties for forgery….would there be yes… but 20 years in prison would be a deterrent.

It is not a big deal to me but I would not think it an infringement on my freedoms if they were to come up with one.
Butch

(in reply to JackM1)

Post #: 46

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 9:31:19 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

I s'pose I take the view that it is very easy for the government to abuse power, and I would consider them the insurrectionists. There is already much that is not even close to the spirit of the original freedoms granted in this country. It has been chipped away at in the name of the common good...bit by bit by bit.
National ID card? I am not necessrily opposed to it. But I do believe that it would not be a matter of just issuing a card. I already have a driver's license and a passport. In Az (and I thnk most if not all states) you can also get a state ID card if you do not drive. My daughter had to get one before she turned 16 so she could make a summer trip to NY.
I have a concern that this National ID Card would contain much more than basic ID. And that I will not sanction.
Sorry, But I won't even give My thumbprint in a bank to cash a check. And, so far, prints are not necessary for inclusion on a driver's license here. I believe they are in Cali. Not sure where else.
I also have no desire to have a chip implanted in Me for identification. But that is already being tested in Florida, and the first family of guinea pigs was quite excited and all for it. It made them feel safer and more protected. Bah!
These are all ways to track you. It is all well and good to say that if you have nothing to hide, there is no problem. But what is acceptable behavior and belief today can all too easily mark you tomorrow.
Be careful...be very, very careful.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 11/17/2007 9:33:18 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 47

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 9:43:44 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

No it is not easy for our government to abuse power... it is very hard because of the Constitution…. Many have tried and failed… the present administration included. The Constitution will prevail.

All of the information that would be attached to a national ID is no more secure where it is now...Your City, State, and County all have information on you and I and it is not secure now... So adding to a National ID would make no difference. It would just make things easier on us.

I'm not talking about imbedded chips …DNA samples...I would like to see a finger print however on that type of ID

As for the Militia...I will follow the words and content of the constitution ... it is very clear in its meaning.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/17/2007 9:45:30 PM >

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 48

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 10:00:59 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Good night, Butch!

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 49

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 10:01:53 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

lol.. good night and thank you

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 50

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 10:07:12 PM

Nosathro

Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

A person as a condition of being placed on Probation or Parole by Court Order is to be subject to search and seizure at any time and the residence searched. If they don't like it they can return to jail or prison and serve their time. That what I tell them, very few actually decided to go back to confinement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kc692

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Actually this is all very legal. This has gone up to the Supreme Court and back again many times and has been upheld. The parent or legal gurdian of a minior child can give law enforcement permission to search minors' room without a search warrant. Here is another one, got someone living with you on Parole or Probation? If they have Court Ordered Search and Seizure as a condition of their Parole or Probation? Law enforement can come to your house and search the place at any time of day or night, no warrant needed. I use to do it at around 5 am.

Now that's scary....you have a relative or friend trying to get back on their feet and you have no say whether police can enter your home, that is yours and not theirs? You are not, after all harboring a fugitive. The property belongs to you. You are saying there is no warrant needed then? I hope that never happens to me, because I would hate to test that theory, truly.

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to kc692)

Post #: 51

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/17/2007 10:33:16 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

A person as a condition of being placed on Probation or Parole by Court Order is to be subject to search and seizure at any time and the residence searched. If they don't like it they can return to jail or prison and serve their time. That what I tell them, very few actually decided to go back to confinement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kc692

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Actually this is all very legal. This has gone up to the Supreme Court and back again many times and has been upheld. The parent or legal gurdian of a minior child can give law enforcement permission to search minors' room without a search warrant. Here is another one, got someone living with you on Parole or Probation? If they have Court Ordered Search and Seizure as a condition of their Parole or Probation? Law enforement can come to your house and search the place at any time of day or night, no warrant needed. I use to do it at around 5 am.

Now that's scary....you have a relative or friend trying to get back on their feet and you have no say whether police can enter your home, that is yours and not theirs? You are not, after all harboring a fugitive. The property belongs to you. You are saying there is no warrant needed then? I hope that never happens to me, because I would hate to test that theory, truly.

That's what more than a few people do these days, serve their full time and then they're free.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Nosathro)

Post #: 52

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/18/2007 1:20:55 AM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

I don't believe that warrants are required if the parents gave the cops permission. The parents can refuse and then the police would have to get a warrant. If the scenario was required to have the police get a warrant every time they do anything then they can never come to a house because they don't have have to delay to get the warrant. An example. Your house is broken into. They would have to have a warrant to enter to investigate the crime showing that the crime existed (probable cause) to get the warrant because inviting them in was insufficient grounds and then any evidence found could be excluded because it would have been tainted.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 53

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/18/2007 3:18:59 AM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

What civil liberties groups are worried about is that parents might feel intimidated when police come to the door and ask to search their kids rooms. Remember this is probably going to take place in poorer neighborhoods where people dont know all their rights. The parents will automatically think their kid did something wrong and let the police do the search.

Obviously if they have no warrant, there is no probable cause. And I dont see how this is supposed to solve anything.

This is just Big Brother trying to get a peak in your house.

That was pretty much my reaction too, CD.

Yeah but this isn't anything new, the astounding number of people that allow searches every day upon request without understanding that they can refuse is amazing.

It is the parents that need to wake up, search their own house if they think their child has a gun and get the kid some help if they do. The program that would really help with teen violence is if people actually parent with something other than cable tv and nintendo and watch their kids for signs of trouble and get them help when they see it instead of saying that couldn't happen to my kid and sticking their head in the sand.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 11/18/2007 3:32:47 AM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 54

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/18/2007 4:15:45 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
Remember this is probably going to take place in poorer neighborhoods where people dont know all their rights.

My experience with "poorer neighborhoods" is that the people know all about their rights. It's their responsibilities, such as raising decent kids, that they are clueless on.

Rich:
Poor people know less about raising decent kids than those who are not poor???????????????Get a grip dude.
thompson

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 55

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/18/2007 8:34:04 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Step away from your 10 acres of junque, Thompson. Have a little drive into some of those inner city neighborhoods where they live in mass. Trash begets trash. The individual exceptions are just that.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 56

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/21/2007 5:16:42 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Step away from your 10 acres of junque, Thompson. Have a little drive into some of those inner city neighborhoods where they live in mass. Trash begets trash. The individual exceptions are just that.

Rich:
The Kennedy's and the Bush's seem to have fielded more than their fair share of drunken miscreants.
The shooters at Columbine were not inner city. Ken Lay was not inner city.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 11/21/2007 5:22:55 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 57

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/21/2007 8:44:32 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
But...A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed....

Says nothing about protecting ones self from law inforcement..or as you say "against the governement and it's law enforcers themselves"

Right it says that every able bodied man between the ages of either 16-45 or 18 - 50 are responsible for protecting the self and the law. Who the perp is is irrelavant. Perps can range from jumkie criminals to government tyrants.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 58

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/21/2007 8:54:55 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You asked…”What is the militia defending against if not the loss of freedom to the governement and the enforcers? “

The US constitution amendment 2 provides for a militia….it also states its purpose…to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; — U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sec. 8, Cl. 16.

Nowhere does it state government and enforcers.

The laws of the union are the constitution and they have done away with probable cause, any crime is a terrorist.

They have free speech zones.

Those are all laws of the union, that is the constitution are they being upheld by the government?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 59

RE: Boston cops look to search without warrants - 11/21/2007 8:57:06 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

I s'pose I take the view that it is very easy for the government to abuse power, and I would consider them the insurrectionists.

tyrannical despots.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 60

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