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Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 5:40:08 AM

mastertarlthered

Posts: 12
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline

I get the distinct impression that many subs are put off by a Dom who tells them he has rules that they would be required to follow to the letter.

They don't mind submission, humiliation, bondage, gratuitous sex and pain as long as there are no rules, if not only a few they must obey within a relationship.

Personally I can see no way of pursuing a Master/slave relationship where there are no rules.

Maybe it is the style of rules that is the problem, as I favour rules that are intrinsically stylised.

Such as the "Gorean" style slave rules and positions.

I began an initial communication with a "slave" on TSR. She seemed just about perfect. She wanted all of the same things I want from a Master/slave relationship including the most extreme forms of control and personal humiliation. But then when I mentioned I had an extensive set of rules for her to follow, she backed off so fast I thought she may have been abducted by aliens. Lol

If anybody has any thoughts on this subject and would wish to share them with not only me but the world, please feel free to post on this thread.

Thankyou.

Iain aka Master Tarl.

Post #: 1

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 5:52:12 AM

lauren0221

Posts: 681
Joined: 8/29/2006
Status: offline

While I am a big fan of control and dominance, I am not so much a fan of being made to fit into someone's preconceived notion of who I should be. Imparting a long list of rules on a submissive, before having a deep and clear understanding of who the submissive is, and how these rules will impact them, would make me suspect that the dominant is fulfilling a fantasy and not interested in a real relationship with a real person.

(in reply to mastertarlthered)

Post #: 2

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 5:55:23 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

This is my general guideline for rules in my owner-slave dynamics.

They must be my rules -- I create them, I may be influence or inspired, but they have to be mine.

They must fit into my life easily -- I'm a busy professional woman, I have two professions in fact, so for me to enforce rules they have to fit into my life.

They must be important -- simply having rules for the sake of rules is foolish. I could make rules about how I want napkins folded or what order my slave has to put on his clothes but I do not see those sorts of rules as either maintaining our dynamic or providing either of us with a sense of ownership or enslavement.

I have to be able to remember them like that (snaps fingers) - if I can't remember my rules and be able to list them off simply and easily, I have no business trying to use them.

Finally, the rules must enable my slave to become the best person and servant he can become. If the rules add negative stress or interfere with ability to hold down a job or increase his knowledge, I do not think they are healthy.

So figure out what type of owner-slave dynamic you want and created rules and rituals, too, that help that succeed.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to mastertarlthered)

Post #: 3

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 6:40:15 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

I get the distinct impression that many subs are put off by a Dom who tells them he has rules that they would be required to follow to the letter.

I intentionally chose a dominant that was very unstructured. This has had more benefits for the relationship than detriments... because rules just make it easier to submit in some ways.. but for compatibility reasons I chose someone unstructured... because I am to some degree.

quote:

They don't mind submission, humiliation, bondage, gratuitous sex and pain as long as there are no rules, if not only a few they must obey within a relationship.

Hmmmm,.... what you describe above is "bottoming" to me, it has nothing to do with my submission other than it pleases him and he decides how we play.

quote:

Personally I can see no way of pursuing a Master/slave relationship where there are no rules.

Some people have trouble visualizing how something can work when they are not doing it themselves.

quote:

Maybe it is the style of rules that is the problem, as I favour rules that are intrinsically stylised.

Such as the "Gorean" style slave rules and positions.

I think that this would be a major problem for most people, as most people could not live that way. So you need a girl with a rule fetish that gets off on all the rules, they do exist.

quote:

I began an initial communication with a "slave" on TSR. She seemed just about perfect. She wanted all of the same things I want from a Master/slave relationship including the most extreme forms of control and personal humiliation. But then when I mentioned I had an extensive set of rules for her to follow, she backed off so fast I thought she may have been abducted by aliens. Lol

If anybody has any thoughts on this subject and would wish to share them with not only me but the world, please feel free to post on this thread.

Personally, for me, if someone came at me with a laundry list of rules I would RUN. It would show they had not put thought into my needs in the relationship, only their own. It would also seem to be unrealistic to live with a bunch of rules... just my opinion.

I am a submissive, and I am very obedient, but it is not about rules for us... rules are like a kink in and of itself in my opinion.. our relationship is not built on kink, it is built on the fact he has the power in the relationship. He does not need a set of rules to hammer home who the one in charge is.

Now I can understand people having some rules for the smooth running of their home, but rules about making someone feel more power and control... if the person knows they have the power, they do not need gratutitous rules in my opinion... which is why I intentionally chose a dynamic without a bunch of them...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to mastertarlthered)

Post #: 4

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 6:55:07 AM

TreasureKY

Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

I wholeheartedly agree with lauren, tammyjo, and juliaoceania's comments above. I'd also add that being given rules can appear to be condescending... as if I'm incapable of doing the right thing without explicit guidelines. I don't take that very well as I pride myself on being a mature and responsible adult.

That's not to say that FirmhandKY would be unwelcome to present to me his expectations in the form of "rules"... but if he did so, I would be surprised if they differed any from what I already know.

I'd also emphasize what julia has brought out about rules... "It would show they had not put thought into my needs in the relationship, only their own." Reminds me of this thread.

(in reply to mastertarlthered)

Post #: 5

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 6:55:07 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

I just recently did a first draft of mine and Alandra's Standing Orders and Protocols within our relationship with him. It is 13 pages and there are certain areas that are lacking in detail and need to be expanded...

How much is too much? When it stifles the relationship and the people in it; when the relationship or the people in it are harmed.

With someone like me (actually all three of us) who values structure, order and plans a 13 page document is not too much and is found lacking in some areas. It is essentially a document of his preferences and a very clear and concise description of what he expects from us.

Most often submissives fail to follow instructions because the dominant has not been clear in what the submissive is to do and what outcome is needed for the submissive to be successful in what they did. The more specific and detailed a dominant can be in what they expect, the more often a submissive will meet those expectations.

With a submissive that values less structure and more spontaneous actions, a 13 page document is going to stifle them and may cause harm in the long term.

If you know that you want someone who prefers structure and plans, then find a person who fits that rather than trying to mold all submissives into that.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to mastertarlthered)

Post #: 6

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 7:01:13 AM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

It's too many rules when you the dominant can't keep up with enforcement. You might get the hint it's too many rules (or misdirected/non-constructive rules) when slaves consistently cannot keep up with them, screw then up or mess up on things they used to do well when new things are added on. Rather than punish first, reassess and make sure that you've not created your own mess (then punish if you still need to.)

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to mastertarlthered)

Post #: 7

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 7:13:21 AM

LATEXBABY64

Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline

Rules what rules we do not need any rules. Rules where ment to be broken

(in reply to MisPandora)

Post #: 8

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 7:25:56 AM

chiaThePet

Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
Status: offline

When I am confronted with "rules", I think, push, bend, break, manipulate.

I have been given lists of rules to follow all my life by those whose own need
required such. I have come to abhor such lists.

If individuals can't possess the understanding needed to engage, develop,
and nuture a relationship within the context of their needs and desires,
how will lists of rules change their hearts.

I stood before God and his witnesses and proclaimed, "Till Death Do Us Part".
We are no longer betrothed, and yet she still breathes.

chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to mastertarlthered)

Post #: 9

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 7:52:25 AM

SweetSarijane

Posts: 3788
Joined: 10/7/2005
From: KC area Missouri
Status: offline

Someone who throws out a list of rules premade isn't going to be a match for me at all. Where is the time taken to get to know me as a person? Where's the time taken to set things up to fit the specific relationship you are in with the person? I don't need rules, I simply need to get to know the person, his preferences and then it's natural and automatic to do all I can to ensure his happiness, take care of his needs and desires. I cannot and will not submit unless it comes from my heart, inspired by the person I choose to submit to.

_____________________________

Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers KCSass

(in reply to chiaThePet)

Post #: 10

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 7:57:52 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

I don't take that very well as I pride myself on being a mature and responsible adult.

That's how I look at it. I would not be able to deal with tons of rules and micromanagement. That would not be the relationship for me.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to SweetSarijane)

Post #: 11

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:01:29 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

I don't take that very well as I pride myself on being a mature and responsible adult.

That's how I look at it.

A question for both Treasure and Katy...

Do you think that someone like me who does like rules and likes having the expectations clearly spelled out in advance is not a mature and responsible adult?

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 12

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:07:08 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane

Someone who throws out a list of rules premade isn't going to be a match for me at all. Where is the time taken to get to know me as a person? Where's the time taken to set things up to fit the specific relationship you are in with the person? I don't need rules, I simply need to get to know the person, his preferences and then it's natural and automatic to do all I can to ensure his happiness, take care of his needs and desires. I cannot and will not submit unless it comes from my heart, inspired by the person I choose to submit to.

There is a difference between having Rules and How those rules are Introduced into the relationship. Most fail rather quickly because they throw the book down on the desk and say.... follow this! It would be no different than putting a high school math book on the desk of a elementary pupil.... Do this! Knowing how to develop a relationship and incorporate the rules is not something can be done without some consideration of those in the relationship.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SweetSarijane)

Post #: 13

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:08:37 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

The problem with you already having an extensive set of rules is that they are based on the masturbatory fantasy sub of your dreams. That's a deliberately harsh way of saying this and I'm doing it for a purpose to try to get through to you.

I have no interest in a man who isn't interested in who I am and what my life is like. When someone says they have 125 rules I have to follow no matter what I know he isn't interested in me. He just wants a warm body, any interchangeable warm body. I need to be special.

Which means he has to be more interested in knowing who I am than in how I can best get him off.

Say you have a rule saying I have to be in stiletto heels and short skirt with no panties at all times. During my period? While escorting a school hiking trip? While shoveling snow? While walking a horse on a muddy field? Because these things are the realities of my life and your pre-existing rules don't fit into my life. Nor do I propose to be unable to leave my house because I can't shovel the snow off the deck, nor am I willing to get blood on my upholstery because I get my period, nor am I willing to refuse to chaperone my son's class or attend my daughter's horse show.

He first learned about me and gave me rules as he thought I needed them. Rules that weren't make work, but were designed for me and were helpful to me whether to make me more outgoing or safer.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 14

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:17:55 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

It's too many rules when you the dominant can't keep up with enforcement. You might get the hint it's too many rules (or misdirected/non-constructive rules) when slaves consistently cannot keep up with them, screw then up or mess up on things they used to do well when new things are added on. Rather than punish first, reassess and make sure that you've not created your own mess (then punish if you still need to.)

Go buy a board game that you never played... look at the rules once....now play it... But don't look at the Rules.... remember you already know the rules! Some how I don't think they are going to be very successful in playing the game very well.

A person can have alot of rules...but we can only introduce and absorb so many rules at a time. It's not that difficult in truth....

start with about 3 rules... start with those that matter to you the most! Introduce them.... allow them to become a natural course of the relationship. Note: You don't have to make it a formal process either. It can be rather informally done. One can simple say... I would llike you to do X and not even refer it to being a rule. And then one must at every instant reinforce this new requirement/preference. Before long a person adjusts to the preference/requirement. Alot of preferences can be incorporated with this informal method. When the introduction is a natural flow of growth and enhancement of the relationship.. it can becomes much more successful.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to MisPandora)

Post #: 15

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:24:23 AM

SweetSarijane

Posts: 3788
Joined: 10/7/2005
From: KC area Missouri
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane

Someone who throws out a list of rules premade isn't going to be a match for me at all. Where is the time taken to get to know me as a person? Where's the time taken to set things up to fit the specific relationship you are in with the person? I don't need rules, I simply need to get to know the person, his preferences and then it's natural and automatic to do all I can to ensure his happiness, take care of his needs and desires. I cannot and will not submit unless it comes from my heart, inspired by the person I choose to submit to.

There is a difference between having Rules and How those rules are Introduced into the relationship. Most fail rather quickly because they throw the book down on the desk and say.... follow this! It would be no different than putting a high school math book on the desk of a elementary pupil.... Do this! Knowing how to develop a relationship and incorporate the rules is not something can be done without some consideration of those in the relationship.

That's where I was coming from on my thinking of it. Presenting a list of rules rather than taking the time to get to know each other and learn preferences and desires and needs. I tend to, as I discover the preferences of the one I'm with, begin to follow those preferences in my desire to see that person happy and fulfilled. It becomes automatic and natural to do so and fulfilling to me in turn knowing I am making them happy. Make sense?

_____________________________

Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers KCSass

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 16

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:28:33 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

He first learned about me and gave me rules as he thought I needed them. Rules that weren't make work, but were designed for me and were helpful to me whether to make me more outgoing or safer.

This is an important point and another reason for the failure of people and their rules. Too many Dominants make Rules for them and them alone. Yes Dominants have their own individual preferences... but so do submissives in these relationships. Rules are not just for the Dominant and not just for the submissive... they are for the Relationship! If the rule doesn't grow and enhance the Relationship.. it is not much good. It might please one person in the relationship... but if it stifles the relationship.. why would you want it!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 17

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:34:33 AM

Sexynmentalinkc

Posts: 132
Joined: 4/14/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

It's too many rules when you the dominant can't keep up with enforcement.

A person can have alot of rules...but we can only introduce and absorb so many rules at a time.

...*seconds both of those related statements*

In one of my work roles, I deal with people that learn new software. I often have to tell them to learn/master it bite-by-bite (or is that byte-by-byte? LOL) instead of trying to 'eat the whole meal at once'.

The same applies here.

Start with a small ruleset, the size of which can be set based on how well it seems a couple can manage that set, and get it down cold. Then move on to more and so on.

Rome, afterall, wasn't built in a day 'eh?

*tips his hat*

- Mr. S

_____________________________

"I think all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. ...I'm certainly not. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am..."

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 18

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:35:27 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Personally, for me, if someone came at me with a laundry list of rules I would RUN. It would show they had not put thought into my needs in the relationship, only their own.

I agree with this. I also think that the time place to be discussing the details of those rules is when you're negotiating, not with someone that you haven't even met. It comes off as presumption.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 19

RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:37:18 AM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline

To the OP:

I have only three rules which aren't really rules they are basically Hard Limits for me, they are things I will NOT have in my life or in my home and it is a single offence that WILL bring the end of a relationship. My slave is also my wife and she knows that these rules ARE set in stone and if broken it will mean not only the removing of her collar, but the beginning of a divorce.

They are not quite always common sence as many people recreationally use drugs but I am a recovering addict and work a rigorous program of honesty and abstenece of all mind altering chemicles and thus Yes, I have a Rule of Zero Tollerence for Drugs AND Alcohol.

I also have a rule about panties but it is more of a Pavlovian responce then a rule. Many Dom's have the no Panties rule but mine is a little off. There is NO repercussion for wearing panties other then if I see them on you I cut them off. Either you will stop wearing panties or you will have none left to wear. In reality I don't mind panties I just used a very small insignificant item to show that I will have control of even the most insignificant part of your life. If a girl can accept that I control her right to put on panties it is easier for her to accept and releive the control over other things just as insignificant. I don't need the rule but believe it or not it has been a good learning tool. I know there are those who think it is silly and that is okay, it works in our house.

The last rule is Obey or Leave. The choice is always thiers. Without getting into the debate of semantics over who well this actually works you find that over time as the relationship grows on a 24/7 aspect that you are no longer as specific in your expectations and eventually she doesn't have to be told to do anything because she already know what is expected of her.

As far as Gorean Rules, I used to live in a Gorean Homestone and we called ourselves Jarls and said Tal when we got home and had LONG LISTS of rules and Elaborate Protocols and things and I got annoyed with it because the reality of thier uselessness became obvious when I discovered thier faults.

Too Many Rules that even the Dom can't tell when they have been broken. What is the point to a rule that says a girl will never speak to another man without permission first, when you can't tell if the rule had been broken? Just like what is the popint in having a rule that says all her clothes must be washed in Tide, if you never do laundry and would never know if it wasn't? What is the point in setting a rule just to have a rule?

Even my three at times seem too much but they are necessary for ME. If any Dom can look at thier rules and give purpose to all of them, then great it isn't for me to talk down about it.

Also to the OP is it that you had rules, or that you had Gorean Rules? Gor leaves a BAD taste in some peoples mouths and IO have noticed that more people get turned off by the Book Style Jarls then they do by the Philosophy Driven Doms using Gor as a Philosophical foundation for making thier home. Often when a Gorean Master contacts a NON-Gorean girl there is a non understanding that causes a rift, so I ask the question are you sure it was the rules and not the Gorean Concept that sent her for the hills?

As Always

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 20

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