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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:49:59 AM

grlneedstolearn

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i love concise rules that my Dom gives me because they will keep me in line and he will know if i have broken any of them. But i don't mind at all.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:50:38 AM

windchymes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

I don't take that very well as I pride myself on being a mature and responsible adult.

That's how I look at it.

A question for both Treasure and Katy...

Do you think that someone like me who does like rules and likes having the expectations clearly spelled out in advance is not a mature and responsible adult?

Knight's Kyra

I know this wasn't directed to me, so hope you don't mind me chiming in......

It's fine if someone likes rules and expectations clearly spelled out for them and that is their choice of how they want to live their life. But if their entire world would fall apart because someone wasn't making rules and expectations for them, then no, I wouldn't consider them a mature, responsible adult.

As someone else said, if the OP needs to make lots of rules and have them followed, then he needs to hold out for a sub or slave who is fulfilled by that type of lifestyle.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:50:41 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I just recently did a first draft of mine and Alandra's Standing Orders and Protocols within our relationship with him. It is 13 pages and there are certain areas that are lacking in detail and need to be expanded...

How much is too much? When it stifles the relationship and the people in it; when the relationship or the people in it are harmed.

With someone like me (actually all three of us) who values structure, order and plans a 13 page document is not too much and is found lacking in some areas. It is essentially a document of his preferences and a very clear and concise description of what he expects from us.

Most often submissives fail to follow instructions because the dominant has not been clear in what the submissive is to do and what outcome is needed for the submissive to be successful in what they did. The more specific and detailed a dominant can be in what they expect, the more often a submissive will meet those expectations.

With a submissive that values less structure and more spontaneous actions, a 13 page document is going to stifle them and may cause harm in the long term.

If you know that you want someone who prefers structure and plans, then find a person who fits that rather than trying to mold all submissives into that.

Knight's Kyra

Ah, see that sounds more like my training program that everyone in my household with standing of slave has to go through. Regardless of what later contracts might say, everything in that training program is still in effect.

My but actually day to day rules are a very short list.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:52:44 AM

LadyLynx

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OP, Not everyone likes that much structure. I certainly don't. And I got the impression that you were still in the chatting in email stage. I think that maybe sending a list of rules before meeting, let alone playing, was a bit hasty. The idea of structuring a list of rules to the individual is a good thing. negotiation. Something else, try not to generalize, it just annoys people. Either here or in real life.

The Laundry list of rules, I read about 50 of them, then just scanned the rest. If a dominant had the balls to give that list to me, I would brain him with a hammer!

< Message edited by LadyLynx -- 11/18/2007 8:54:33 AM >

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I also go by the nic SwitchWitch on MDS.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:53:17 AM

salilus

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Daddy has a very long list of rules that I am to follow. They encompass everything from how I speak to how long my nails to what I wear to when I sleep and wake. He likes micromanaging and I like being managed by him.

However, I have been his for nearly four years.

If he had told me, before I'd even met him in person, that he wanted me to keep my hair a certain length and be in bed at a particular hour, I probably would have backed off quite a lot.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:54:25 AM

amiciaN

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KnightofMists--

You just described what NChaka does with me. I have very few specific 'rules'. Those I do have are either foundation principles of the relationship, (ie., Rule #1-- I am to be completely honest with Him at all times.) or the specific protocols I am to follow in areas where there have been problems. Most of His expectations are not codified into 'rules' however. Nevertheless, they are consistently and constantly reinforced.

A good example of that would be that I do not have a dress code, yet I know that NChaka prefers a style He describes as 'elegant', which is as much about how I 'carry myself' as what in particular I am wearing. If I am going out to work in the yard in jeans and a T-shirt, I'm expected to wear a T-shirt that is my size (small, not XXL), tuck in my shirttails and comb my hair. NChaka is generous with His praise as well, telling me when He is pleased with my appearance. Another example would be that I'm free to pin my hair up while working, but before I sit down to lunch with Him, I'm to let it down because He prefers it that way. It's not a rule, it's just 'the way things are'. And I absolutely love the 'way things are' in my life!

...Well, except for that damned long distance thing, but we're working on that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

It's too many rules when you the dominant can't keep up with enforcement. You might get the hint it's too many rules (or misdirected/non-constructive rules) when slaves consistently cannot keep up with them, screw then up or mess up on things they used to do well when new things are added on. Rather than punish first, reassess and make sure that you've not created your own mess (then punish if you still need to.)

Go buy a board game that you never played... look at the rules once....now play it... But don't look at the Rules.... remember you already know the rules! Some how I don't think they are going to be very successful in playing the game very well.

A person can have alot of rules...but we can only introduce and absorb so many rules at a time. It's not that difficult in truth....

start with about 3 rules... start with those that matter to you the most! Introduce them.... allow them to become a natural course of the relationship. Note: You don't have to make it a formal process either. It can be rather informally done. One can simple say... I would llike you to do X and not even refer it to being a rule. And then one must at every instant reinforce this new requirement/preference. Before long a person adjusts to the preference/requirement. Alot of preferences can be incorporated with this informal method. When the introduction is a natural flow of growth and enhancement of the relationship.. it can becomes much more successful.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 9:01:39 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

start with about 3 rules... start with those that matter to you the most! Introduce them.... allow them to become a natural course of the relationship. Note: You don't have to make it a formal process either. It can be rather informally done. One can simple say... I would llike you to do X and not even refer it to being a rule. And then one must at every instant reinforce this new requirement/preference. Before long a person adjusts to the preference/requirement. Alot of preferences can be incorporated with this informal method. When the introduction is a natural flow of growth and enhancement of the relationship.. it can becomes much more successful.

That is how my Daddy does it... he does not call them rules, he just tells me what he wants and I do it

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 9:06:20 AM

LadyLynx

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KOM, good ideas and good points! In my book, if the Dom doesn't remember the rules, then why should the sub? (after all if the sub breaks a rule/protocal, how would the Dom know to punish?)

kyra, are you allowed any negotiation into the rules and protocol? while a long list of rules may not be for me, as long as you are happy with them that is the main thing.

windchymes, you have a good point, however considering that kyra has lived many years before meeting Knight, I think she would be okay if that structure is no longer there.

_____________________________

Our community maybe openminded as a whole, but it is still made up of individuals who bring in their own opinions,baggage and agendas!

Known as SwitchWitch in my local community,and on IRC Bondage.

I also go by the nic SwitchWitch on MDS.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 9:29:27 AM

mastertarlthered

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I have to admit that I have sooo much to learn.

And I can't thank those of you who replied to my post, enough for taking time out to enlighten me.

I realised soon after not recieving a reply from the sub in question, that it was a big mistake to have sent her the rules and positions so soon.

And I have to admit that yes maybe those rules and the positions are part of some sexual fantasy I have maintained all the years since I read those Gor books.

And maybe it is time to put them to bed. Or at least most of them. Lol

Since the first time I posted my profile I have adjusted much of my profile to reflect both my preferences and those of those subs who's profiles I had viewed.

I do wish to pursue a F/T 24/7 Master/slave relationship with a sub in reality.

I have and do realise that any relationship I do pursue is as much about the subs preferences as my own.

I fully intend to enter into a period of negotiation with any intended subs both here and eventually for real before I begin setting down any kind of structure.

The suggestions about starting small where rules are concerned are I can now see very important in a relationship.

Beginning with a few implicit instructions, and building from there.

My main problem concerning rules and not having any is that coming from a fairly rule orientated backgroud what with my family, public school and naval career. It would feel wierd not to have any.

Not that I personally was ever very good at following those rules myself.

I was always a rebel. lol

As such I can fully understand why a sub may feel hemmed in by them.

But then, forgive me but to some degree thats what "slavery" is about.

Thanks again. Iain.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 9:31:35 AM

kyraofMists

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windchymes,

I appreciate your response. I would agree that someone who falls apart because someone else does not impose rules and structure may be lacking in maturity and responsibility.

I am someone who needs structure and consistency. Without it I do not manage life so well. However, I am quite capable of creating my own structure and rules. Without his structure, I would not fall apart; I would just create my own. Without any structure I would struggle and be very stressed.

LadyLynx, if you see negotiation as including, "this is how you are going to do things if you are my slave; do you consent to this?", then yes, I get to negotiate *g*

I am allowed to express my opinions and give information about the rules and protocols that he wants me to follow. Really it is just a written accounting of his preferences and what he expects from me. Whether my opinion and preferences changes anything is ultimately his decision. Sometimes, I might come up with a better way of doing things and making his life less stressful. More often than not, I am adding more detail to his preferences to lessen miscommunication in the future.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 9:35:57 AM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

A question for both Treasure and Katy...

Do you think that someone like me who does like rules and likes having the expectations clearly spelled out in advance is not a mature and responsible adult?

Not at all, kyra... that is why I said, "being given rules can appear to be condescending"; it does depend on the people involved, their relationship, what the rules are, how they are given, and when. I do apologize if my choice of words with regard to maturity were offensive to you. I had specific things on my mind when I wrote that and wasn't thinking of a situation such as your own relationship.

There are many times when I think I'd like to have very explicit instructions as I don't like surprises or making mistakes, and I very much want to please. Having some expectations spelled out for me gives me a certain sense of security in that respect.

On the other hand, not having rules to fall back on in some areas causes me to not only be more creative and thoughtful, it forces me to face risk and challenge my own fears of displeasing. The result is that he is free from having to enforce those rules and I am free to exceed his expectations.

What wouldn't work for me is being handed a laundry list of rules too early in a relationship, having no input into what those rules are, and those rules covering areas that quite frankly don't need to be covered. For example, I don't need a rule telling me that I am to be obedient and defer authority to him. Having that as a rule would diminish me as my submission to him was by my choice as a mature and responsible adult. Making it a rule removes the significance of my choice by making it compulsory... as if I were incapable of choosing the correct behavior unless I was told how to and faced repercussive sanctions.

I realize some greatly appreciate having the structure that rules provide. There is nothing wrong with that, at all. What I think is wise is to do what I believe you, KoM and alandra have done, which is to create and solidify your rules based on the individuals and the relationship that you have developed.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 9:43:26 AM

KatyLied

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quote:

Do you think that someone like me who does like rules and likes having the expectations clearly spelled out in advance is not a mature and responsible adult?

No. I think they probably enjoy more rigid surroundings than I do. I see it more as a personality thing. Too many rules and I know I would rebel and wonder why it was necessary.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 10:08:15 AM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mastertarlthered

Maybe it is the style of rules that is the problem, as I favour rules that are intrinsically stylised.

Such as the "Gorean" style slave rules and positions.

Could be it. I have no problems with rules in general but I would avoid someone who follow Gorean type rules and made frequent use of the slave positions. If for no other reason than I know I would not be the right girl for them.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 10:24:23 AM

DMFParadox

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The first rule is that you do NOT talk about Fight Club. Henceforthe, I order my submissive to follow Robert's Rules of Order when speaking to me. Oh, and Emily Post, she's got some good stuff too. Also, on every third Sunday of the month my submissive must invent a new Chuck Norris truism. If I don't laugh, then the whippings commence.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 10:30:39 AM

MRandme

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i enjoyed being in the military because you always knew what you were supposed to do, when to do it and what would happen if you didn't. When i have that sort of structure, i am more relaxed and content. However, i cannot stand having to follow rules that make no sense or serve no purpose. i also hate being micromanaged.

My Master gave me seven rules to follow, easy to remember, and trusts my judgement on following them. They can each be summed up in one word, with a short sentence or two expanding them. i must be: Obedient, Honest, Clean, Industrious, Discreet, Not Jealous, and Faithful. As we have grown, He has told me of His preferences for various things, but considers them protocols or routines, rather than rules. The above seven are my Commandments and anything else falls under one of those rules -- the First (obedience) if nothing else.

There is always the KISS rule, if nothing else... Keep It Simple, Sir.

BTW, masterarlthered, my Master also lives the Gorean philosophy, though not to the extent many in these forums do.

Respectfully,

g

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 10:57:05 AM

DMFParadox

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g, your master was probably a boy scout in a former life. Just saying. Those rules look way too much like the Scout's Oath, and the trustworthy, loyal, honest, etc.

Delightful pic, by the way.

D

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 11:01:18 AM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grlneedstolearn

i love concise rules that my Dom gives me because they will keep me in line and he will know if i have broken any of them. But i don't mind at all.

But, he's not her Dom. He's just some guy she's talking to:

quote:

I began an initial communication with a "slave" on TSR

That is most likely the crux of the problem. "Initial communication" is a little soon to be laying out all the rules.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 11:05:30 AM

lauren0221

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quote:

As such I can fully understand why a sub may feel hemmed in by them.

But then, forgive me but to some degree thats what "slavery" is about.

Thanks again. Iain.

We all have a lot to learn, and there are some very wise people on this forum.

There are no set definitions of "slavery". Every individual and relationship is unique. My needs or your needs are not necessarily someone else's. For me, having ANYTHING imposed on me without a clear understanding of what the implications will be would smack of irresponsibility and carelessness, and that is a hard limit for me. Even if every single rule turned out to be perfect for me and the relationship, I would still run because the Dominant had no way to know that when they were imposed.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 11:08:27 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Do you think that someone like me who does like rules and likes having the expectations clearly spelled out in advance is not a mature and responsible adult?

No. I think they probably enjoy more rigid surroundings than I do. I see it more as a personality thing. Too many rules and I know I would rebel and wonder why it was necessary.

"In a state where corruption abounds, laws must be very numerous" Publius Cornelius Tacitus

I tend to agree with this from a D/s standpoint. If I have to make a lot of rules to control her behavior, I tend to
wonder how badly she wishes to submit to me.

I want her to comport herself in a manner which does not bring shame or disgrace to our partnership. If she has questions she can ask me, but I do not view them as "rules" or "laws."

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 11:18:44 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mastertarlthered

I get the distinct impression that many subs are put off by a Dom who tells them he has rules that they would be required to follow to the letter.... Personally I can see no way of pursuing a Master/slave relationship where there are no rules.