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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 11:18:58 AM

Aceton

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I'm far too awesome for rules.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 11:20:19 AM

LaMspeach

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Fast reply...

I have rules and i enjoy them. I find comfort in knowing what is expected of me. However, LaM didnt have a preconceived set of rules. my rules evolved as they were needed, our relationship grew and he learned more about me.

As i am thinking about this i dont think i have many rules at all but when i list them there are tons of them. I guess I dont think of them as rules any more just a way of life.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 11:47:08 AM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
If I have to make a lot of rules to control her behavior, I tend to
wonder how badly she wishes to submit to me.

This could also be asked in another way... If there is no prescribed code of conduct or action, i.e. rule, given to the submissive from the dominant then what is the submissive submitting to? How can someone submit to the will of someone else if they do not know what that will is? Rules/codes of conduct/expectations are a method of communicating the will of the dominant.

My code of conduct is not there because I don't wish to submit. It is there because he wants me to know exactly how he wants me to submit to him. Without that direction from him, how would I know?

This code has only recently been written. Mostly it was just verbal instructions that I received as needed, i.e. "When we go out by ourselves, I expect you to stay on my right." The full instruction only needed to be given once. In the beginning he had to remind me a few times and now it is second nature.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 11:53:26 AM

Kaiynasha

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mastertarlthered, I so agree. You have to take into consideration that many subs are simply into their own pleasure and personal gratification. They want the play but they don't want to be tamed. They want their own agenda and therefore, you will find many who run off when it comes to rules.

I am a very strict Domme, and I put my potentials to the test MOST never make it. Should I question my ethical rules or question them? I question them. Why should I have a play partner or a serious partner at that simply- who shows no submission in My rules.

My suggestion is to keep looking and to realize that there are MANY who have issues, about the own pleasure, and are simply NOT serious. I have learned to read them very well.

Don't let anyone waste your time. I don't.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 11:58:00 AM

laurell3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane

Someone who throws out a list of rules premade isn't going to be a match for me at all. Where is the time taken to get to know me as a person? Where's the time taken to set things up to fit the specific relationship you are in with the person? I don't need rules, I simply need to get to know the person, his preferences and then it's natural and automatic to do all I can to ensure his happiness, take care of his needs and desires. I cannot and will not submit unless it comes from my heart, inspired by the person I choose to submit to.

There is a difference between having Rules and How those rules are Introduced into the relationship. Most fail rather quickly because they throw the book down on the desk and say.... follow this! It would be no different than putting a high school math book on the desk of a elementary pupil.... Do this! Knowing how to develop a relationship and incorporate the rules is not something can be done without some consideration of those in the relationship.

I agree. I would add however, there can be rules on both sides of the fence. One rule I always have for both parties is no lying, ever.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 12:11:08 PM

charlotte12

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This slave has two primary duties, "absolute obedience and exquisite beauty." As Master sees that i thrive on rules and serve him better with many guidelines in place he shows me more and more specific ways in which i can do things in a way that are pleasing to him. It's not a list of rules but simply his stating, this is how I like this done.

So for this slave the rules become a way to help me serve my Master better. They are helpful because each time he shows me something new i have been given yet another way in which to please my Master. I see them more as helpful tools to use in my service to him rather than as restrictions. So i sought someone who enjoyed a strict M/s dynamic. I can totally see how it might stifle someone so really it comes down to compatibility. You can be clear up front about what you want without actually having to practice it yet. Just because i know Master owns me completely and i will obey him in all things doesn't mean he has seen fit to command me to do so many things that obedience becomes a burden instead of a pleasure. Just because i am still learning to be his slave does not mean that i am any less his right now.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 12:16:33 PM

camille65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

windchymes,

I appreciate your response. I would agree that someone who falls apart because someone else does not impose rules and structure may be lacking in maturity and responsibility.

I am someone who needs structure and consistency. Without it I do not manage life so well. However, I am quite capable of creating my own structure and rules. Without his structure, I would not fall apart; I would just create my own. Without any structure I would struggle and be very stressed.
<snipped>
Knight's Kyra

I didn't read any further in this thread, but this is pretty close to how I feel and how I see the rules in my world. For me they aren't in an actual list, it is more that I am to follow through on things in the manner I know that he wants. Rules give me structure and that gives me an enormous amount of inner peace. I like boundaries, I like knowing there are consequences for things. Having to function in certain ways (his ways lol) somehow frees me up inside.When I know what is expected from me then I succeed in things and that not only feels good but is good for me.Like I have said concerning micromanagement, I see an infinite amount of possibilities and levels.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 1:13:47 PM

kyraofMists

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Treasure,

Thank you for your reply. I was not offended at all. Rather than draw a conclusion that may not be accurate I decided to ask the question.

I agree that a huge list of rules or expectations at the beginning of a relationship would be rather daunting and seem insurmountable. He started out enforcing the ones that were the most significant to him and then built on them from there. There were even some expectations that I was not told; I did them naturally so there was no reason to ever mention them. I have only found out about them because he mentioned them in some of his posts.

There are some areas of my life where I am given a lot more latitude than others. These are usually areas that I excel at and know really well or areas that he just has little interest in. Then there are other things that he will micromanage to varying degrees.

Then there is the one thing that he loves to do... He has me make a plan, define expectations and then he throws it out the window and forces me to submit to spontaneity. At times I know he does it just to screw up my ordered little world and force me to deal with what I consider chaos. This is what I find challenging. This is where I am tested most in my submission. Submitting to rules and known expectations is easy for me. Submitting to spontaneous changes of direction and expectations takes work.

Thank you again for your post.

Knight's Kyra

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"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 1:19:52 PM

slaveofKaos

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I personally need and love rules in my M/s relationship. I don't think there are any certian numer that is to many. My Master makes the rules and adds and subtracts when he wants to. He is in charge and I follow his direction unless he tells me otherwise.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 1:35:14 PM

ResidentSadist

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Perhaps it was aliens? I have found the inverse of your experience true in my life. Slaves do not feel controlled if they don’t have a solid set off rules. They want to know exactly how to please, where they are needed and what they can do to feel like a valuable asset.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 4:42:29 PM

windchymes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

windchymes, you have a good point, however considering that kyra has lived many years before meeting Knight, I think she would be okay if that structure is no longer there.

Oh, I absolutely agree. That's why I tried to be careful and word my response to her question in general terms, not aimed directly back at her!

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 4:47:58 PM

windchymes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

However, I am quite capable of creating my own structure and rules. Without his structure, I would not fall apart; I would just create my own.

And this is exactly the impression I have always had of you.

This is what a mature adult does.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 4:48:30 PM

CuriousLord

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There's all sorts of levels of rules, from top/bottom couples who are basically vanilla outside of the bedroom, to D/s couples where the Dom typically has say in matters, but doesn't always override the sub, to light M/s where the Master largely controls the slave, to M/s, where what the Master says, goes, and the slave follows whatever rules the Master happens to impliment.

What works for a particular individual? Meh, that's up to them.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 5:17:19 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Then there is the one thing that he loves to do... He has me make a plan, define expectations and then he throws it out the window and forces me to submit to spontaneity. At times I know he does it just to screw up my ordered little world and force me to deal with what I consider chaos.

Oh me??? I wouldn't do a thing like this!!!

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 6:47:07 PM

Lumus

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Quick summation of the rules I have used for every girl I have chosen to consider or own:

This is what I want from you. [insert want here]
This is why I wish it from you. [insert communication here]
I will hear your thoughts about it. [insert more communication here]
This is what will happen if you do not do this. [insert consequence here]

"Now you know what I want; why; what your heart speaks on the matter; and what will happen if you do not do as I have requested. We understand each other now."

That's about it: simple, and effective. If a thing needs clarification or reinterpretation beyond that, then I encourage her to speak as she will, to save me the headache of impersonating a psychic.

< Message edited by Lumus -- 11/18/2007 6:48:57 PM >

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 7:30:46 PM

serenitee

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To be honest, I prefer my Dominant to set rules. I love the structure that rules provide and in a way it is comforting, they give me something to focus on. But I find, if there is no consistency then I become rebellious and end up failing whatever tasks are set therefore rules only work if the Dom(me) is willing to put in as much effort as the submissive/slave.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 7:41:59 PM

MasterFireMaam

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I have found that most people are very much into submitting their will and such...as long as they are asked to do it in ways that they want. We're all like this. For example, we don't mind offering help when we're asked nicely...but being yelled and and coerced into doing it often leads to resentment.

Be patient. Write your rules down. Create a Household Manual. Put it out there. Explain it to those who ask. Then wait. They'll come. There really are people out there who will want what you offer, if you do your best to offer something of value.

A shameless plug, because I think it might be helpful: If you want some guidance/ideas about a Household Manual, check out my book, Manual Creation. It's in the list of Ms Relationship books in my sig.

Master Fire

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 7:50:18 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mastertarlthered

I have to admit that I have sooo much to learn.

And I can't thank those of you who replied to my post, enough for taking time out to enlighten me.

I realised soon after not recieving a reply from the sub in question, that it was a big mistake to have sent her the rules and positions so soon.

And I have to admit that yes maybe those rules and the positions are part of some sexual fantasy I have maintained all the years since I read those Gor books.

And maybe it is time to put them to bed. Or at least most of them. Lol

Since the first time I posted my profile I have adjusted much of my profile to reflect both my preferences and those of those subs who's profiles I had viewed.

I do wish to pursue a F/T 24/7 Master/slave relationship with a sub in reality.

I have and do realise that any relationship I do pursue is as much about the subs preferences as my own.

I fully intend to enter into a period of negotiation with any intended subs both here and eventually for real before I begin setting down any kind of structure.

The suggestions about starting small where rules are concerned are I can now see very important in a relationship.

Beginning with a few implicit instructions, and building from there.

My main problem concerning rules and not having any is that coming from a fairly rule orientated backgroud what with my family, public school and naval career. It would feel wierd not to have any.

Not that I personally was ever very good at following those rules myself.

I was always a rebel. lol

As such I can fully understand why a sub may feel hemmed in by them.

But then, forgive me but to some degree thats what "slavery" is about.

Thanks again. Iain.

Just a couple of responses to what you wrote above.

Remember that most successful DS relationships didn't jump into 24/7 -- they went in step by step.

Also 24/7 in reality has very little in common with the fantasy or porn or erotica image we see. In my opinion and experience the reality is far better but it certainly lacks much of the dazzle you see in these fantasy venues.

For some of us, consensual slavery isn't at all about "hemming in" someone or limiting them. For some of us, owning someone or being owned is actually a way to help that person grow and become empowered.

Fox is far better and far happier a man being owned by me than he was before me or probably as he could have been without me. He is comfortable with his sexuality, he has encouragement for his art and his computer design, he has an outlet for his drive to serve and be owned, and he get positive feedback as well as the rituals and rules that help us maintain our dynamic.

And finally, if you grew up in a structured life but also rebelled against it, I would do some self searching for what motivates you to want many rules or rituals in your Ds life. I think the most successful relationships are those that are guided by positive motivations after a lot of self searching. So start searching and start getting involved in learning about yourself before you even get a partner let alone someone you can own. You can do this via reading and writing, attending munches, getting involved in local or regionally events.

You are in a catch-22 as a top/dom. You need to have a lot more knowledge, self awareness, and experience before you will be taken very seriously by anyone. You'll make mistakes and learn from them but please do as much development as you can long before you get into Ds in any long term fashion.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:04:50 PM

DMFParadox

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To answer your question seriously, I enjoy immensely the process of finding rules to set. I'll let the sub/slave cast around for a while and watch them wriggle on the hook, then lay down the law when the level of antsiness and anticipation is making me happy.

When the desire to please is dammed up by trying to figure out what's expected, and then the tension is resolved by giving her a way out of the trap, and a new rule to follow that becomes part of her identity... priceless. The thought makes me hot.

You get two more benefits: 1)you know what they're like 'naturally,' you get insight you wouldn't normally by having the rule out there before you get a feel for their desire to obey something, and 2) they don't have time to think too deeply about it before they follow your lead. Your dominance is more potent than if they had time to agree intellectually before they do emotionally.

I don't wait too long. And I make it known that their obedience will be increased, that a rule is coming for them. Just not what it is. Often I don't know myself until I say it, I'm a bastard that way. Some people have to plan it out or figure out what they want in advance, but I just take up space and demand obedience, with no warning as to what that'll actually mean. Rules only happen as they gradually accumulate; timing is important, if it's a permanent thing then it has to be less of a legal document and more of a trained instinct, the way I do it. Although I've written lists in the past, but usually only after the rules have already been followed--less of a reminder, more of a ceremony that adds meaning and value

Think about it--they don't tell you too much of what to expect before grabbing your duffel bag and jumping off the bus into the eagerly predatory domain of your Basic Drill instructor... because they want your heart in your throat and no time to think about instinctively obeying them. Same principle, if not quite as abrupt.

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RE: Rules: Just how much is too much? - 11/18/2007 8:20:38 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

This could also be asked in another way... If there is no prescribed code of conduct or action, i.e. rule, given to the submissive from the dominant then what is the submissive submitting to? How can someone submit to the will of someone else if they do not know what that will is? Rules/codes of conduct/expectations are a method of communicating the will of the dominant

I know his will and expectations, if I have questions I ask them. I know, for example, he likes the bed made soon after we get up. I know how much cream he likes in his coffee (he likes a little coffee with his cream

). I know how he prefers to be greeted. I know his moods and how I should act in relation to them. If he wants something different he tells me. He has never set a rule up as to how things are to be done, he lets me know how he prefers it, and because I want to please him I endeavor to do it how he prefers it.

If things are not done the way he likes them, he may ask me why they are not that way, or he already knows the "why" of it... (bed unmade? Maybe he rushed me out the door as soon as I could get ready. Not enough cream in his coffee? Maybe we ran out and he did not want me to go to the store until later, etc).

I think there is a big difference in a rule book, and knowing someone and their preferences.. I pay attention to his preferences and attempt to live up to them. So he needs very few "rules".

quote:

My code of conduct is not there because I don't wish to submit. It is there because he wants me to know exactly how he wants me to submit to him. Without that direction from him, how would I know?

This code has only recently been written. Mostly it was just verbal instructions that I received as needed, i.e. "When we go out by ourselves, I expect you to stay on my right." The full instruction only needed to be given once. In the beginning he had to remind me a few times and now it is second nature.

I did not read his post as a slam on people that thrive with rules, I read it as his preference is for a submissive that does not need them because he does not enjoy making a bunch of them... some people thrive on structure where things are set in stone, others do not...

Going back to my work example, sometimes I have to bend rules to get my job done, and I risk getting written up for that when I do so. I have a brain, I know how to get things done, and in my experience lots of rules hamper me from getting things done. I have a sister who needs a lot of structure to feel comfortable in her life, she micromanages her own life because she needs that structure to feel comfortable.. she is smarter than I am according to IQ tests... different strokes for different folks.

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