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RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 3:13:52 PM   
Invictus754


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
Here's how to even the playing field:
http://www.beststungun.com/
Never leave home without it...


So you advocate the use of "lethal" force against a police officer?

_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

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Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 3:43:05 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

The eggshell skull rule (or thin-skull rule) is a legal doctrine used in both tort law and criminal law that holds an individual liable for all consequences resulting from his or her activities leading to an injury to another person, even if the victim suffers an unusually high level of damage (e.g. due to a pre-existing vulnerability or medical condition). The term implies that if a person had a skull as delicate as the shell of an egg, and a tortfeasor or assailant who did not know of that condition were to hit that person on the head, causing the skull unexpectedly to break, the responsible party would be held liable for all damages resulting from the wrongful contact, even though they were not foreseeable. The general maxim is that defendants must "take their victims as they find them", a quotation from the judgment of Lawton LJ in the criminal case of R v. Blaue.

(in reply to Invictus754)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 3:50:14 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754
So you advocate the use of "lethal" force against a police officer?


I advocate a strong self-defense at all times. If a cop comes at me unreasonably and intends to use force against me, I will defend myself as is necessary. If a cop comes at me or mine to kill, I will put him down. I will not even think twice about doing it.

I have the right to defend my life and those of my loved ones. In a civilized society I would hope that such right would go uncontested.

YMMV...

(in reply to Invictus754)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 4:20:14 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
The poor reading comprehension comes in to play with your insistence that the above cite contains the words 'prior to '.


I *never* said that 77-7-6 contains the words 'prior to'. You need to pay closer attention to what you're reading.

So, WHEN should a Citizen consider themselves "Under Arrest"? 77-7-6 is pretty clear, but you seem to disagree?

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 11/30/2007 4:22:09 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 4:26:12 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Is your reading comprehension so poor, that you do not see the word AUTHORITY in Utah 77-7-6(1) ?
quote:


77-7-6. Manner of making arrest.
(1) The person making the arrest shall inform the person being arrested of his intention, cause, and authority to arrest him.

I think it could be argued that his authority was apparent - he was a officer of the law. You forgot to include the remainder of 77-7-6:
quote:

Such notice shall not be required when:
(a) there is reason to believe the notice will endanger the life or safety of the officer or another person or will likely enable the party being arrested to escape;
(b) the person being arrested is actually engaged in the commission of, or an attempt to commit, an offense; or



What crime do you allege was being attempted or committed, which would permit the exclusion?


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Invictus754)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 6:57:03 PM   
MasterKalif


Posts: 648
Joined: 5/24/2004
Status: offline 		This is scary and oftentimes I think if ever the US for whatever reason would get a dictatorial/authoritarian government, these cops would be the most enthusiastic of enforcers, gestapo style, with a smile on their face as they could opress people...

The reason the American public does not respect the police for the most part, is because their actions, their unprofessionalism and rudeness. Whatever happened to the courteous cops like Andy in those old black and white movies, or like the French colonial police, etc, etc? I get pulled over for speeding and I get a bullshit attitude from some poor loser who is frying in anger. All he had to do was hand me the ticket and tell me the situation. Instead hsi comment is "you like playing games, huh? lets see how much you like this"...I was like what has this guy been smoking...

When my place got robbed, the cops were the least helpful...yet when I am 5 miles over the speed limit they make their presence known. Clearly in some states they have too little important things to worry about (read real criminal activity) like in MA and RI (ok at least in RI in my experience except for one cop, they have been at least polite)...in NY and NJ I have never been pulled over because here at least they have real work to do.

I dunno I hold in higher esteem those police officers of little known countries who are proud to wear their uniform and feel like they are professionals, have hymns, marches and traditions, lacking in the American police system in my personal opinion. No unity.

My two cents....let the cop lover's rants begin!

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:11:46 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

The eggshell skull rule (or thin-skull rule) is a legal doctrine used in both tort law and criminal law that holds an individual liable for all consequences resulting from his or her activities leading to an injury to another person, even if the victim suffers an unusually high level of damage (e.g. due to a pre-existing vulnerability or medical condition). The term implies that if a person had a skull as delicate as the shell of an egg, and a tortfeasor or assailant who did not know of that condition were to hit that person on the head, causing the skull unexpectedly to break, the responsible party would be held liable for all damages resulting from the wrongful contact, even though they were not foreseeable. The general maxim is that defendants must "take their victims as they find them", a quotation from the judgment of Lawton LJ in the criminal case of R v. Blaue.




This doctrine doesn't actually apply until there is clear liability.  As police officers generally enjoy immunity for any actions that are within the course of duty other than gross negligence, it's citation is completely irrelevant to the situation.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:19:27 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		TITLE 42, § 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/usc_sec_42_00001983----000-.html

Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

-----

Are you always wrong or does it just seem that way?

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:21:22 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		You do realize that §1983 is several books long correct?  Now read the section on immunity.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:25:06 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		No thanks, I am not interested in your "loser script." I know that there is no blanket immunity. I have some experience in this area that satisfies me on this issue. I know what a "winning script" reads like...

You can absolutely sue a cop for violating your rights - both the department and the cop personally.

You can believe whatever you like.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:26:00 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		"The reason the American public does not respect the police for the most part, is because their actions, their unprofessionalism and rudeness. "

While it is true that those who dislike the Police are very loud they are by far the minority in America.  http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t2202006.pdf

12% rate the honesty and ethics of Policemen as very high
42% high
34%  average
9% low
2% very low

There is no need to for us to rant masterkalif...we have facts on our side.  Your 11% is mostly made up of Professional Criminals, Radical Leftists and Neo Nazis.

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 11/30/2007 10:27:34 PM >

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:31:09 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		You can sue anyone for ANYTHING.  That doesn't mean it will be successfull. YOU quoted the law.  I'm telling you, having dealt with §1983 actions for years, it is incredibly voluminous and quoting one section out of context makes no sense.  The thinskull plaintiff rule does not apply until there is liability and you look at damages.  That is how torts work.

Yes, in fact governmental agencies and officers have a certain degree of immunity for their actions as do prosecutors, judges and most branches of the government.  One must get beyond that immunity before liability is clear.  The last few of these I saw, in fact, for tasering incidents settled for I believe around $500 dollars each.  ALL lawsuits are generally worth settlement or nuisance value.  Whether a suit is actually a winner is dependent on the law.

This isn't a sports game.  There's no "winner" or "loser" script.  The law is clear and you can't read just one section and quote it.  If you don't believe me, stop reading wikipedia and look it up yourself.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:39:03 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Was there some part of my previous statement that you misunderstood? Put up or shut up. You do the research, I am not doing it for you. I am satisfied with what I know is true. FWIW, I am not now plotting out the strategy of a lawsuit - just making a pointed, supported refutation of your comment earlier.

If you wish to contradict me, do so with something like evidence: a quote, a link, something...otherwise it's just hot air. I realize that appeals to authority have their limits but then your word alone on a subject means next to nothing.



And no, it's not exactly formal debate either...


(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:41:39 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		As previously stated Sugar your macho aggression is not going to bait me into slinging mud with you.  You mistated the law.  I corrected it.  You're free to restate the law to prove me wrong if you like.  If not, I'm confident of my expertise in the matter.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:48:24 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
You mistated the law.


Only if Cornell Law got it wrong and isn't worthy of being linked.



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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:52:16 PM   
Invictus754


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What crime do you allege was being attempted or committed, which would permit the exclusion?


1st - speeding
2nd - resisting arrest (by walking away)

_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 10:54:41 PM   
Invictus754


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
If a cop comes at me or mine to kill, I will put him down. I will not even think twice about doing it.


You made me laugh so hard!  You sure sound tough.
I know I'm scared now.

_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 11:00:15 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
You mistated the law.


Only if Cornell Law got it wrong and isn't worthy of being linked.





Nope.  But you quote ONE section of a voluminous Act and act as though it alone is controlling.  It is not.  Again, the section on immunity within §1983 is paticularly relevant to police officers and without it, the general section is meaningless.  Every statute, every ordinance, every Act is further defined by the defnitions and sections that control it.  Citing one section without reading and understanding the rest is a misstatement of the law.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 11:16:40 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754
I know I'm scared now.


Wonderful.

Just one note: I don't like to start fights, but I do know how to end them. And I'm not just going to let some cop kill or hurt me without cause, not without my putting up resistance. I am exactly as tough as I need to be.

You can make of that what you will.


(in reply to Invictus754)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... - 11/30/2007 11:22:01 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754
1st - speeding
2nd - resisting arrest (by walking away)


Speeding - not at the precise moment the cop went into overdrive. So, it doesn't apply.

And doesn't the cop have to explain that the driver is under arrest before the driver can resist being placed under arrest?

Doesn't that make sense?

Try reading the thread before just adding what has been asked and answered numerous times already.



(in reply to Invictus754)
Profile   Post #: 180
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