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RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 11:32:21 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Are you afraid of your partner?
Does your partner ever hit, choke, slap, or otherwise physically hurt you? ( power exchange scenes excluded)
Has he or she ever restrained you against your will, locked you in a room or used a weapon of any kind?
Does your partner constantly or frequently criticize your performance, withhold sex as a means of control or ridicule you for the limits you do set?
Does your partner use sex to make up after a violent incident?
Does your partner isolate you from friends, family or groups?
Does your partner prohibit you to take part in social events or activities?
Has your partner ever destroyed objects?
Has your partner ever threatened pets?

Does your partner limit access to work or to material resources?
Has he/she ever stolen from you or run up debts?
Are you or your partner emotionally dependent on one another?
Does your relationship swing back and forth between a lot of emotional distance and being very close?
Is your partner constantly criticizing you, humiliating you, and generally undermining your self esteem?
Do you feel you can not discuss with your partner what is bothering you?
Are you confused about when a scene begins and ends?
Does your partner ever ignore your safe words or pressure you not to use them?(this is for those who use them)
Has s/he ever violated your limits?(or his/hers)
Do you feel "trapped" in a specific role (submissive or dominant)?
Does your partner use scenes to express or cover up anger and frustration?
 
The above was borrowed with permission from Hans Meijer (American National Leather Association,
Dutch S&M Media Information Center & POWERotics)
 
Personally I agree with Michael, motivation, along with anger and using anger as a weapon, be it mental or physical.
We all have anger issues at some point or another, no one is perfect, but if its an ongoing issue, theres a good sign that something isnt right.
Lucy
 
 

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(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 12:35:16 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline 		It's abuse when you cannot make it stop.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 1:15:10 PM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Are you afraid of your partner?


I know there are people (including at least one on this board) who want some measure of fear of their dominant.

quote:

Does your partner ever hit, choke, slap, or otherwise physically hurt you? ( power exchange scenes excluded)


Where does a scene begin or end? If she is being discourteous and I pinch her, is that abuse?

quote:

Has he or she ever restrained you against your will, locked you in a room or used a weapon of any kind?


Bondage and knife play, sounds like some people's idea of a good time.

quote:

Does your partner constantly or frequently criticize your performance, withhold sex as a means of control or ridicule you for the limits you do set?


Verbal humiliation and chastity.

quote:

Does your partner use sex to make up after a violent incident?


I don't know about making up, but how many people have sex after a scene?

quote:

Does your partner isolate you from friends, family or groups?


If they are detrimental to her well being, yes.

quote:

Does your partner prohibit you to take part in social events or activities?


If I have other plans or think that they wouldn't be good for her, yes.

quote:

Has your partner ever destroyed objects?


Does breaking a cane count? What about breaking something down so it will fit in the trash?

quote:

Has your partner ever threatened pets?


Probably.

quote:

Does your partner limit access to work or to material resources?


I have authority over purchasing decisions.

quote:

Has he/she ever stolen from you or run up debts?


I have 50k in college loans that I am paying off.

quote:

Are you or your partner emotionally dependent on one another?


If we aren't emotionally intertwined in some way, the relationship isn't very close now is it?

quote:

Does your relationship swing back and forth between a lot of emotional distance and being very close?


First being close is bad, now occasional distance is bad too?

quote:

Is your partner constantly criticizing you, humiliating you, and generally undermining your self esteem?


Some people see this as a good time, see: verbal humiliation.

quote:

Do you feel you can not discuss with your partner what is bothering you?


Sometimes she does, especially after I have told her I don't care that the neighbor's soufflé fell.

quote:

Are you confused about when a scene begins and ends?


In 24/7, does the scene ever really stop?

quote:

Does your partner ever ignore your safe words or pressure you not to use them?(this is for those who use them)


This is a shaky question. Define "pressure".

quote:

Has s/he ever violated your limits?(or his/hers)


Soft or hard? Some people want their limits pushed through. The limit loved it, it was going "Oh, violate me!".

quote:

Do you feel "trapped" in a specific role (submissive or dominant)?


Huh?

quote:

Does your partner use scenes to express or cover up anger and frustration?


Isn't punishment, to some extent, the expression of frustration with someone misbehavior? If it didn't frustrate you, you wouldn't care.

quote:

The above was borrowed with permission from Hans Meijer (American National Leather Association, Dutch S&M Media Information Center & POWERotics)


Damn, according to them, I'm abusive.

quote:

Personally I agree with Michael, motivation, along with anger and using anger as a weapon, be it mental or physical.
We all have anger issues at some point or another, no one is perfect, but if its an ongoing issue, theres a good sign that something isnt right.
Lucy


I agree with that final sentence.

Honsoku

< Message edited by Honsoku -- 11/24/2007 1:20:28 PM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 1:19:42 PM   
Honsoku


Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

It's abuse when you cannot make it stop.


What if I have her gagged, bound, and we don't use safe words/signs? At that point there isn't anything she could do to stop me, so does that make whatever I do abuse?

Honsoku

(in reply to RRafe)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 1:48:02 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

<throws on flak jacket and asbestos lined longjohns>

Almost unanimously people have pointed to consent as the difference between abuse and d/s. I disagree with this on two counts. Firstly, many abusive relationships are consensual in nature. The person being "abused" frequently will not leave of their own volition and if removed will seek to return to the "abuser". How is this not consenting to the relationship? If your response is that because they return out of fear, how is that different than ensuring obedience through the threat of punishment? How many of you would lose respect for your dominant if he did not enforce the rules?

Secondly, many d/s relationships have non-consensual treatment as a major part of the relationship (at the very best, consent gets really fuzzy). I am reminded of something Tigrita said; "I don't really want to be submissive, I want to be dominated". The act of dominating another implies a lack of choice on the part of the person being dominated. There is an underlying current of force, of "make me", in a lot of d/s relationships. If force is used (whether it is psychological or physical), consent is arguably non-existent, as you can not consent to force else it is no longer force. If you fall back on "i consent to being there" then go back to the previous paragraph.

The difference is not consent but content. If you are content with your overall treatment, it isn't abuse. If you aren't content, then it is abuse (in the context of this thread).

This is the best I have ever seen it explained. Thank you.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 1:51:13 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

It's abuse when you cannot make it stop.

I would have to disagree with this RRafe. I could never stop him; though we were both trained extensively, he was not only physically stronger, mentally stronger, had more stamina; not to mention that he played dirty  Yet, it was not abuse.

As Michael said in one post, and this I kind of agree with....it's all about the motivation behind it.
quote:

  It is all about motivation.  Do you beat the stupid slut because it grounds her and allows  her to find peace or do you beat the stupid bitch because you feel pathetic and small and by making her fear and cower before you allows you to feel less pathetic and not so small?



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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 1:52:50 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Honosoku, without consent..with anger, not frustration, beyond what has been agreed upon or discussed, yeah, pretty abusive, the secret there is "without consent" I meant to change the title of the post to show that, . so excuse the generalisation. But yes in my not so humble opinion ....many of those cases, if one partner sees that pattern emerging and doesnt want it, and doesnt consent, its abuse. I understand there are many people that adore being "afraid" of their dominant,  love to be hit, punched, kicked, pinched etc etc, outside of scenes or playtime, its part of the dynamic they need and they willingly agree to it.
I screwed that up.. I apologise. I meant it to mean "without consent" 
Im not putting anyones kink down.. I just like consent....altho I like to push limits, Im not gonna tie him up and gag him and then cut him or stick needles in him just cos he cant do a damn thing about it and I wanna get my jollies breaking his hard limits.
Lucy

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 1:55:11 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I understand there are many people that adore being "afraid" of their dominant,  love to be hit, punched, kicked, pinched etc etc, outside of scenes or playtime, its part of the dynamic they need and they willingly agree to it.

I was never afraid of him...and I would never be in a relationship in whch I was afraid of the person I was with.

I might be afraid of what they are capable of, but never of the person.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 1:57:38 PM   
MRandme


Posts: 661
Joined: 9/24/2007
Status: offline 		Abuse is harm. If what one is doing causes emotional harm that lasts after the scene ends, i would consider that abuse.  This is not to say accidentally causing emotional harm during a scene is abuse, but to perform acts that one knows will cause harm is abuse.

As to why the abused keep returning to their abusers, there is a psychological theory called cognitive dissonance.  Wikipedia defines it as "the uncomfortable tension that may result from having two conflicting thoughts at the same time, or from engaging in behavior that conflicts with one's beliefs.
 
In popular usage, it can be associated with the tendency for people to resist information that they don't want to think about, because if they did it would create cognitive dissonance, and perhaps require them to act in ways that depart from their comfortable habits. They usually have at least partial awareness of the information, without having moved to full acceptance of it, and are thus in a state of denial about it."
 
What this means is (example only) if a sub is being abused by her Dom. He tells her that he cares for her and values her, but His actions make her feel unloved and not valued. This creates a discord in her mind and she has to find a way to reconcile that discord... she has to rationalize it. She ends up making excuses for Him and returning because she can't reconcile what He says and the way He treats her.  She is in denial.

There was also an experiment that showed people will rationalize to create equality between the effort expended on something and the results attained. If one spends three years on a relationship and then has to admit that the person is abusive, then one has to admit having been wrong and wasting that time, calling one's own judgement into question and causing all sorts of negative emotions. It is actually easier to convince yourself that it isn't really all that bad and things will get better. After all, the abuser is usually promising to change, that it will never happen again, and that it somehow was all the abused person's fault in the first place.

The experiments on this are listed in the Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance .

And yes, i am sort of speaking from experience here. That part is behind me now (or will be once the paperwork is done) and i can clearly see where the concept of cognitive dissonance played a part in my staying with a manipulative abuser for 18 years.

YMMV of course. It was based on some of Skinner's work and he was a little flakey himself. LOL

g




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And thus i conclude with a wish you go well,
Sweet be your dreams, may your happiness swell,
I'll leave you here, for my journey begins
i've gone to be with Him again...

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 1:59:16 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		Sheesh! How do you feel about abuse of the English language?

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 8:02:46 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku


quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

It's abuse when you cannot make it stop.


What if I have her gagged, bound, and we don't use safe words/signs? At that point there isn't anything she could do to stop me, so does that make whatever I do abuse?

Honsoku


You have to let her go sometime.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 8:04:11 PM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

It's abuse when you cannot make it stop.

I would have to disagree with this RRafe. I could never stop him; though we were both trained extensively, he was not only physically stronger, mentally stronger, had more stamina; not to mention that he played dirty  Yet, it was not abuse.

As Michael said in one post, and this I kind of agree with....it's all about the motivation behind it.
quote:

  It is all about motivation.  Do you beat the stupid slut because it grounds her and allows  her to find peace or do you beat the stupid bitch because you feel pathetic and small and by making her fear and cower before you allows you to feel less pathetic and not so small?




If you can walk away after the fact of you not wanting it-you can make it stop.

_____________________________

I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/24/2007 8:54:22 PM   
Muttling


Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		I agree that consent IS a very important aspect.  I'm not so sure about the "can you walk away" part of it because an individual can be abused once then walk away after the first occurrence but it's still abuse.

To me the critical aspect is mutual respect and taking responsibility for one's own actions.  An extremely common trait among abusers is to blame their abusive behavior on the victim.  If a Dom crosses a limit do they take responsibility for having made a mistake or attempt to blame it on the sub?  Blaming it on the sub would raise serious question marks for me.  Does a dom frequently cross the limits and try to justify having done so?  (Again, something that would raise serious questions for me.)

Emotional and verbal abuse were mentioned previously, this is where the really sinister part of abuse comes in.  I have been through two abusive spouses and their bad behavior was always my fault.  For years, I accepted that lie and believed it because there was minimal physical parts of the abuse.  It took a lot of time with a wonderful therapist to understand what was going on and how my actions empowered them to be disrespectful towards me.  The abuse was not my fault, but I did lots of things to encourage it instead of respecting myself.

On a final note, this entire discussion gives me frightening thoughts of the thread on Safe Words.  A thread where some posters talked of not using them because it was too easy for the sub to get out of the situation and did not instill the proper level of fear in the sub.  This is just a tiny glimpse into a person's attitudes, but it's an attitude that raises red flags for me.

(in reply to RRafe)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/25/2007 5:32:38 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

If you can walk away after the fact of you not wanting it-you can make it stop.

That's not what was originally stated though; and my answer was geared towards your original statement

"it's abuse when you cannot make it stop"

Now, if you are instead switching the discussion to a time when the two are NOT engaged with each other, then yes, that changes it; but it was not the original intent of your statement.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/25/2007 6:09:54 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

If you can walk away after the fact of you not wanting it-you can make it stop.

That's not what was originally stated though; and my answer was geared towards your original statement

"it's abuse when you cannot make it stop"

Now, if you are instead switching the discussion to a time when the two are NOT engaged with each other, then yes, that changes it; but it was not the original intent of your statement.


Can we avoid quibbbling over the differences being consensual force play-and actual relationship abuse?

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/25/2007 6:38:09 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		That's what I am trying to point out RRafe. No matter what one person will see as abuse; another will see it differently.

An outsider can NOT state that another is in an abusive relationship; only the two within the relationship can. It does not matter what criteria can be applied; unless you are in the head of those in the relationship; you can not say with certaintly that it is abuse.

Everyone seems so quick to point out  the so called signs; but those signs are of no use when you don't know what the motivation is behind the behavior.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/25/2007 6:40:19 AM   
RRafe


Posts: 2060
Joined: 8/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

That's what I am trying to point out RRafe. No matter what one person will see as abuse; another will see it differently.

An outsider can NOT state that another is in an abusive relationship; only the two within the relationship can. It does not matter what criteria can be applied; unless you are in the head of those in the relationship; you can not say with certaintly that it is abuse.

Everyone seems so quick to point out  the so called signs; but those signs are of no use when you don't know what the motivation is behind the behavior.


I know. And that's just it,no one really knows exactly whey people pick each other-they just do.

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I seem to be some wierd combination of Ren and Stimpy

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/25/2007 7:51:46 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		How about happiness and sadness? Would that work? From the outside looking in (or from the inside itself for that matter), if the alleged abused person is happy with their situation and projects that happiness in their day to day lives - especially when talking about the person supposedly doing the abusing, can it be supposed that there's probably no abuse going on and that one person's treatment of the other is just fine? And if the alleged abused person is miserable, sad, fearful, etc (and NOT getting off on that fear), and projecting that sadness, et al in their day to day lives - especially when talking about the person supposedly doing the abusing, then could it be presumed that there's probably abuse going on and that one person's treatment of the other is NOT just fine?

I'm just guessing here cause while I was IN an abusive relationship, I'm coming to see how difficult it is being on the outside trying to figure out what can't really be figured out.

And I guess that goes back to what I was saying earlier...my best suggestion when on the outside looking in is to do nothing but be a friend - whether people are happy or sad and let them figure the rest out for themselves.

juliet

Would that work?

(in reply to RRafe)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/25/2007 8:39:30 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		One thing when people are being abused it effect everything they do in some way. The sad thing of it is predators know how to find these people. There is something in their make up that says you are a victim there for i will prey upon you.  I have seen a lot of combination's. But to fight these people it has to come from inside. 

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Twisted Behavior - 11/25/2007 9:15:26 AM   
Kaiynasha


Posts: 172
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline 		I think it can be really difficult for the victim to know the difference. Especially if they go into subspace at the time of the abuse. I believe that sub therefore must from the beginning screen any potential Dom or Domme intensely. Anyhow, signs of abuse can be missed should the submissive feel they should simply submit to anything. Many subs do feel this way and therefore will take it. Inside our brain there is a small trigger that comes on when we are in situations called "intuition," if they sub senses that the feelings they are getting is not merely play or safe- their body and mind will tell them. That small little voice will say, "This doesn't feel right. I should say something." The sub therefore should be mindful that this voice is probably correct and should immediately respond. However, many subs and people in vanilla do not- they keep going allowing their intellect to rule, "Maybe this...maybe that." So then what? Usually it takes a pattern before the survivor realizes that this is abuse by then the cycle of abuse has been going for awhile and the bond emotionally has been set deeply. AKA Stolkholem Syndrome.

So...someone has to stop the cycle. Either the sub or someone around them. Usually the the survivor will begin to reach out and question the behavior of their Dom or Domme at such places like collarme. If one sees TRUE fear in the eyes of a sub that is a sign of abuse. Once I had a client who was submissive to her abusive Dom/husband, and every time she spoke about him, she would go into what I call a trance statelike- NOT subspace. This was survivor mode something she learned to do because of the abuse and it was the only way she could survive.  I had to constantly reassure her she was safe.

All one can do is support the sub and remember he/she makes her own choices and knows what makes him/her feel safe. Give them the hotline number, help them make a safety plan, get other Doms/ Dommes involved to get the sub out, tell the sub to speak in code when they are no safe, so you know they are in a situation and can call the police. Most of all tell the sub to listen to that voice.


(in reply to Honsoku)
Profile   Post #: 40
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