quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

<throws on flak jacket and asbestos lined longjohns>

Almost unanimously people have pointed to consent as the difference between abuse and d/s. I disagree with this on two counts. Firstly, many abusive relationships are consensual in nature. The person being "abused" frequently will not leave of their own volition and if removed will seek to return to the "abuser". How is this not consenting to the relationship?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku


Secondly, many d/s relationships have non-consensual treatment as a major part of the relationship (at the very best, consent gets really fuzzy). I am reminded of something Tigrita said; "I don't really want to be submissive, I want to be dominated". The act of dominating another implies a lack of choice on the part of the person being dominated. There is an underlying current of force, of "make me", in a lot of d/s relationships. If force is used (whether it is psychological or physical), consent is arguably non-existent, as you can not consent to force else it is no longer force. If you fall back on "i consent to being there" then go back to the previous paragraph.

The difference is not consent but content. If you are content with your overall treatment, it isn't abuse. If you aren't content, then it is abuse (in the context of this thread).

quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

How about happiness and sadness? Would that work? From the outside looking in (or from the inside itself for that matter), if the alleged abused person is happy with their situation and projects that happiness in their day to day lives - especially when talking about the person supposedly doing the abusing, can it be supposed that there's probably no abuse going on and that one person's treatment of the other is just fine? And if the alleged abused person is miserable, sad, fearful, etc (and NOT getting off on that fear), and projecting that sadness, et al in their day to day lives - especially when talking about the person supposedly doing the abusing, then could it be presumed that there's probably abuse going on and that one person's treatment of the other is NOT just fine?

I'm just guessing here cause while I was IN an abusive relationship, I'm coming to see how difficult it is being on the outside trying to figure out what can't really be figured out.

And I guess that goes back to what I was saying earlier...my best suggestion when on the outside looking in is to do nothing but be a friend - whether people are happy or sad and let them figure the rest out for themselves.

juliet

Would that work?

quote:

One thing when people are being abused it effect everything they do in some way

quote:

I think it can be really difficult for the victim to know the difference. Especially if they go into subspace at the time of the abuse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku


Secondly, many d/s relationships have non-consensual treatment as a major part of the relationship (at the very best, consent gets really fuzzy). I am reminded of something Tigrita said; "I don't really want to be submissive, I want to be dominated". The act of dominating another implies a lack of choice on the part of the person being dominated. There is an underlying current of force, of "make me", in a lot of d/s relationships. If force is used (whether it is psychological or physical), consent is arguably non-existent, as you can not consent to force else it is no longer force. If you fall back on "i consent to being there" then go back to the previous paragraph.

The difference is not consent but content. If you are content with your overall treatment, it isn't abuse. If you aren't content, then it is abuse (in the context of this thread).

This explanation is one of the reasons I like the forums; some days I even learn something about myself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

when someone is in depression. There creativity is stiffled. In a job  Enviroment lets say your a air traffic controler. Where do you think your mind would be. think of it as the domino effect. loss of job. Health issues. Makes people with drawn. lot of ways

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

I had someone approach me and ask a question. In our lifestyle we have a whole melting pot of people via ideas concepts some  good and some bad. This person was asking the question.  The Sadist Dom's and domes are we giving an out let for people who might be abusive in a Neilla relationship. Now peoples here are going to say what might be abuse to one person might not be to someone else. So here is my question. 

    When  is it abuse and how do you explain to a sub what  that it is so they know the difference. ( I do not want post of links or sites just your opinions)
    What are some of the signs of a abusive relationship via mental or physical
    What  actions can you take if you know a 100 percent that someone is in danger of death or being hurt.
     How do you break the programming of an abused submissive or Dom (if you enter into a relationship with a partner find out they have been abused in the past how do you avoid making them feel they are still in those relationships

    Disclaimer ( everything posted has nothing to do with said person or persons other then general observations about life the universal code etc )

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

<throws on flak jacket and asbestos lined longjohns>

Almost unanimously people have pointed to consent as the difference between abuse and d/s. I disagree with this on two counts. Firstly, many abusive relationships are consensual in nature. The person being "abused" frequently will not leave of their own volition and if removed will seek to return to the "abuser". How is this not consenting to the relationship? If your response is that because they return out of fear, how is that different than ensuring obedience through the threat of punishment? How many of you would lose respect for your dominant if he did not enforce the rules?

Secondly, many d/s relationships have non-consensual treatment as a major part of the relationship (at the very best, consent gets really fuzzy). I am reminded of something Tigrita said; "I don't really want to be submissive, I want to be dominated". The act of dominating another implies a lack of choice on the part of the person being dominated. There is an underlying current of force, of "make me", in a lot of d/s relationships. If force is used (whether it is psychological or physical), consent is arguably non-existent, as you can not consent to force else it is no longer force. If you fall back on "i consent to being there" then go back to the previous paragraph.

The difference is not consent but content. If you are content with your overall treatment, it isn't abuse. If you aren't content, then it is abuse (in the context of this thread).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I agree with a lot of this, but still think people are missing the basic problem--the real reason why it's so hard to pinpoint the difference between what we do and abuse.  It's that people generally don't think about which semantic context they mean.  Yeah, I know, "semantic context" is a difficult phrase, but you have to pay attention to it.  Something that qualifies as "abusive" in one semantic context doesn't necessarily qualify as "abusive" in another.  In states where hitting another person is illegal REGARDLESS of whether it's consensual, almost all of us are involved in abusive relationships from a legal point of view.  For obvious reasons, we don't like definitions like that; we can't feel that they're abusive relationships if we willingly enter into and remain in them.  Peach would certainly not claim that I abuse her even though I do all kinds of nasty things to her, physically, emotionally--you name it.  To HER, it's not abusive because it fulfills her in the context of our relationship.

(You can even understand, incidentally, why the state would want to criminalize many of the things we do even if they're consensual; I think it's a very fine line for the state to walk.  We've gone over the whole basement castration case, remember.  Whether it's good or right or just for the state to criminalize consensual violence under any circumstances is an interesting question, but suited for a different thread...)

People talk past each other when they get on the subject of abusive relationships because we all walk around with different conceptions of what "abusive" means, and I've noticed that Collarme users rarely, if ever, specify the semantic context.  We have a silly tendency to want each word to mean precisely one thing in every conceivable context, and language just doesn't work that way.

"Consensual," by the way, is another one of those words whose meaning varies tremendously with the context.  Like "abusive," "consensual" has a legal definition--and that legal definition isn't always useful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

<throws on flak jacket and asbestos lined longjohns>

Almost unanimously people have pointed to consent as the difference between abuse and d/s. I disagree with this on two counts. Firstly, many abusive relationships are consensual in nature. The person being "abused" frequently will not leave of their own volition and if removed will seek to return to the "abuser". How is this not consenting to the relationship? If your response is that because they return out of fear, how is that different than ensuring obedience through the threat of punishment? How many of you would lose respect for your dominant if he did not enforce the rules?

Secondly, many d/s relationships have non-consensual treatment as a major part of the relationship (at the very best, consent gets really fuzzy). I am reminded of something Tigrita said; "I don't really want to be submissive, I want to be dominated". The act of dominating another implies a lack of choice on the part of the person being dominated. There is an underlying current of force, of "make me", in a lot of d/s relationships. If force is used (whether it is psychological or physical), consent is arguably non-existent, as you can not consent to force else it is no longer force. If you fall back on "i consent to being there" then go back to the previous paragraph.

The difference is not consent but content. If you are content with your overall treatment, it isn't abuse. If you aren't content, then it is abuse (in the context of this thread).

quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

It's abuse when you cannot make it stop.