RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous?

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seeksfemslave -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 4:14:09 PM)
Answering no one in particular many UK posters on CM and also the media Liberal apologists for the level of immigration into the UK have repeatedly stated ...dont worry, the UK has a long history of assimilating different cultures and therefore all will be well in the face of the onslaught that is occuring today. It suddenly occured to my tiny mind ...is this really true This is what I found on more than one internet site... * For practical purposes, the arrival of the Normans in 1066 is the sensible place to start an assessment of the impact of immigration on our society. To go back further is to get lost in the mists of time. And when you look at the record of the past 1,000 years, the number of people who arrived in Britain from elsewhere is extremely small - even when you take into account the much lower populations of earlier times. Furthermore, in almost every case, their arrival was spread over decades rather than years. William the Conqueror arrived with only around 10,000 troops of largely French extraction. The total number of Norman settlers in Britain was never more than 5 per cent of the population, but they seized the levers of power and grabbed a third of the land. In the subsequent 1,000 years, there have been only two numerically significant migrations into Britain - the Huguenots in the 16th and 17th centuries and the Jews in the 19th and 20th centuries. Professor Conway's work reveals that both were surprisingly limited in scale.* Somebody's telling PORKIES. ie lying.

EPGAH -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 4:49:38 PM)
Well, America has LEGAL immigration occurring in the MILLIONS of people, and ILLEGALS (i.e., people who already believe their "need" or their "culture" exempts them from the rules!) are anywhere from 12 to 40 MILLION more! That makes it hard for even America's "mighty" assimilation engine to digest them all! As to defending/defining America's culture, I think it could be broken down into 5 basic subsets: 1.) SPEAK ENGLISH! If we can't understand you, then you are emphasizing that you don't belong here, and taxpayers will resent the extra burden of hiring translators at OUR expense...If you offered to pay for translation, that might be a lucrative--I mean different--story! 2.) Wait to be ALLOWED into America. Don't just force your way in, and expect Americans to like it...Modern houses have a door, and even the Internet has "block" features, so we can keep out the ones we don't want; our country is no different! Come in the front door WITH PERMISSION, or don't come in at all! 3.) Don't DEMAND anything, not welfare, not translation, nor any other services. You're a GUEST here, you're NEW here! You're in no position to make demands..."Beggars can't be choosers" and all that! 4.) Obey our laws! If your "culture" and our law come into conflict, follow OUR ways, not your own, or please return to a country where YOUR ways are practiced. 5.) Try to minimize your alienness! Chanting in an enemy language on an airplane, wearing all-concealing clothing in an area where they're trying to search for weapons, speaking another language in public, or marching down the streets under an enemy flag...All of these tend to point out "alien", if not "enemy"!

seeksfemslave -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 5:09:38 PM)
quote: Regarding immigrants Epgah said 4.) Obey our laws! If your "culture" and our law come into conflict, follow OUR ways, not your own, or please return to a country where YOUR ways are practiced. Absolutely "spot on" I would go even further...no please return etc... I would say ...you will be returned etc

EPGAH -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 5:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: Regarding immigrants Epgah said 4.) Obey our laws! If your "culture" and our law come into conflict, follow OUR ways, not your own, or please return to a country where YOUR ways are practiced. Absolutely "spot on" I would go even further...no please return etc... I would say ...you will be returned etc Yes, but the problem is that America returns'em alive, and they find it great fun to keep hopping back into a country they disrespect so much...[;)] The UK at least has that Atlantic Ocean annoying SOME of them into staying put, but from what I've been reading lately, that is losing its effectiveness! In both cases (UK and US), there is a BIG reward for invading (Subsidized housing, preferential treatment for jobs, "free" translations, etc.), and no REAL punishment when they're caught, either to the invaders themselves, or my preference, a big "damages bill" to the country they invaded from, and more than likely, were siphoning money TO!

Lordandmaster -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 8:22:16 PM)
At the airport, yes, it's a loss of 30 seconds to the customers. Out in the middle of nowhere, it could be much worse than that. And if the customer is drunk and needs a taxi to get home safely, it could be the difference between life and death. So I think we agree in general and theoretical terms about the need for rational limits on the power of law, but disagree specifically about the importance of making sure that taxi drivers don't refuse passengers for reasons that have to do with their private moral code. I think we'll probably disagree about a few other specific issues in the area of regulating commerce, since generally I think businesses are UNDER-regulated, not overregulated, but that would be for a different thread, since it doesn't really have anything to do with multiculturalism or immigration. We certainly agree that immigrants have to abide by American laws like anyone else. quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold I am of the personal opinion that a law that would go too far is one that tells any *private* taxi driver that he has to take anyone who wants a ride. It doesn't matter if they don't want to pick up the "fat" person, or the one with crying kids or the one carrying alcohol. If they want to allow a passenger to smoke, they should be able to . "This is a smoking taxi!" If they don't want you to smoke in their cab, then you respect that or find another cab. And if you don't want to ride in a "smoking" taxi because of previous passengers, that is your right. It works both ways. But we are so busy forcing everybody to follow the same rules, that we have completely lost our individuality and freedom of choice. There are no choices anymore, because we are all being made to adhere to one giant set of rules. And it is perfectly legal for the other private enterprise (the airport) to make rules regarding the refusal of a fare, i.e. "go to the back of the line and wait all over again". That is why it was right that they did not win the right to refuse *and keep their place in line*. I am a big proponant of personal freedom, so long as it doesn't horrednously step on others. If you have to wait for the next taxi, it is no big deal. It is a loss of 30 seconds for the customer. It is a loss of perhaps an hour and one less fare for the driver.

stella41b -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 12:24:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Answering no one in particular many UK posters on CM and also the media Liberal apologists for the level of immigration into the UK have repeatedly stated ...dont worry, the UK has a long history of assimilating different cultures and therefore all will be well in the face of the onslaught that is occuring today. It suddenly occured to my tiny mind ...is this really true This is what I found on more than one internet site... * For practical purposes, the arrival of the Normans in 1066 is the sensible place to start an assessment of the impact of immigration on our society. To go back further is to get lost in the mists of time. And when you look at the record of the past 1,000 years, the number of people who arrived in Britain from elsewhere is extremely small - even when you take into account the much lower populations of earlier times. Furthermore, in almost every case, their arrival was spread over decades rather than years. William the Conqueror arrived with only around 10,000 troops of largely French extraction. The total number of Norman settlers in Britain was never more than 5 per cent of the population, but they seized the levers of power and grabbed a third of the land. In the subsequent 1,000 years, there have been only two numerically significant migrations into Britain - the Huguenots in the 16th and 17th centuries and the Jews in the 19th and 20th centuries. Professor Conway's work reveals that both were surprisingly limited in scale.* Somebody's telling PORKIES. ie lying. Of course they are. What has the Norman Conquest and 1066 and the invasions of Vikings got to do with modern problems of immigration? I don't see any. Isn't it funny that the countries who have the greatest problems with immigration were either former colonial powers or advocates of imperialism? Blaming the foreigner and illegal immigrants is missing the point somehow. If your family is poor and needs money and you can't find the work in your own country then sure, you're not going to respect the laws of your host country and you're going to give it your best shot. Having lived abroad myself and about to do so soon I disagree with this mentality, but I can understand why it happens. Most take on low paid menial jobs anyway and work hard to support themselves and to send money back to their families. Had these colonial powers and imperialists traded honestly in their colonies and not exploited them but invested in their infrastructure and economies then there might not have been any need for illegal immigrants. A good case in point is Poland between 1990 and 1995 under the presidency of Lech Walesa, who basically did nothing but force the political ideals of Margaret Thatcher onto a Polish society impoverished by over 50 years of state capitalism and 'social reality' - a hybrid form of Marxist socialism and Soviet style communism. Walesa let all the Western corporations and businessmen in who - rubbing their hands in glee - devastated Polish industry, agriculture and society in return for the promise of support for Poland into NATO and the European Union. The plan worked perfectly. Today Poland has a higher national debt than it did under the former regime, unemployment is still as much as 60% in some areas, especially in the north-east, east and Silesia, and its younger generation of 21-30 year olds makes up 40% of the entire generation aged 21-30 in the European Union and is therefore an ideal source of cheap labour for the large corporations and service industries in Western countries. (I'm quoting Polish Government Information Agency GUS figures published recently in Polityka magazine). The British government gives a ridiculously low estimate of 655,000 Poles in the United Kingdom. Even the 837,000 figure suggested last year by Gazeta Wyborcza is low - when you consider the year long amnesty the British government gave to Poles working illegally in Britain from May 2003, a year before the Accession. I would say the figure for London alone is close to the unofficial O2 (a Polish website) figure of 2.1 million making London the largest community of Poles outside Poland overtaking the previous largest community which was Chicago in the United States with 1.8 million. However the race is on for the next goldmine and wave of immigrants - the Ukraine and Moldavia. But this is only second best to the big one - Russia and Belarus, which I don't think is going to happen whilst Putin or Wladimir Lukashenko, the Belarus President, are in power. However just as with the Orange Revolution in 2004 where Polish activists led on by Walesa sought to 'introduce' what they call 'democracy' into the Ukraine, narrowly succeeding. They have tried to do the same in Belarus but Lukashenko either deported the Poles or threw them in prison along with their Belarus activists. Needless to say, relations between Warsaw and Minsk are about as warm as a Siberian winter.

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 2:07:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster At the airport, yes, it's a loss of 30 seconds to the customers. Out in the middle of nowhere, it could be much worse than that. And if the customer is drunk and needs a taxi to get home safely, it could be the difference between life and death. I truly am not picking on you, LaM, or trying to drag this out, but I want to address this since it seems to Me a perfect example of how so many things are extrapolated out to the extreme, remote and unlikely possibilities. The situation is about busy areas where there are other options for a ride. I sincerely doubt that a drunk might be "in the middle of nowhere" and hoping that a taxi will come along eventually, and in the back of his/her foggy mind, also hoping that it won't be a Muslim driver who will refuse to take him/her home. I could use the example of a "boondocker". I am not sure if this is a familiar term in other areas of the country, but in Az it means a beer bash in the desert. Usually teens and they are with a bunch of friends all getting happily smashed together. Yes, they are irresponsible and hopefully someone else can drive and they already have transportation. Quite unlikely that they can make their way out to the road in the "middle of nowhere" and hail a cab. We also have arrangements here for special rides if needed. You can call the police and have them pick you up and take you home. (They would rather do that than have the people trying to get home in an unsafe manner...so let's not bag on the cops now!) I am sure that an underage drinker is not going to do that...but I just want to point out that many "but what if..." scenarios can be offered as possibilities. We can't legislate away everyone else's freedom in order to cover every single possibility to save idiots from themselves. Yes, we do agree on many things...but I do think that we carry much of "protecting people from themselves" way too far. Let the conequences fall where they may, and maybe some of those idiots will start to wise up. I take that back...first we have to get comfortable again with the fact that there can and should be consequences. Then we can let them fall where they may.

Gwynvyd -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 2:48:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: Regarding immigrants Epgah said 4.) Obey our laws! If your "culture" and our law come into conflict, follow OUR ways, not your own, or please return to a country where YOUR ways are practiced. Absolutely "spot on" I would go even further...no please return etc... I would say ...you will be returned etc Yes, but the problem is that America returns'em alive, and they find it great fun to keep hopping back into a country they disrespect so much...[;)] The UK at least has that Atlantic Ocean annoying SOME of them into staying put, but from what I've been reading lately, that is losing its effectiveness! In both cases (UK and US), there is a BIG reward for invading (Subsidized housing, preferential treatment for jobs, "free" translations, etc.), and no REAL punishment when they're caught, either to the invaders themselves, or my preference, a big "damages bill" to the country they invaded from, and more than likely, were siphoning money TO! rolls her eyes Living on this side of the pond.. in the US... I hate this portion of the population that sees immigrants.. and yeah I dont give a fig how they got here in this bit.. as invaders. You lil fckers were invaders hundreds of years ago. Not now. You took the land and slaughtered the origional inhabitants. Unless you speak a "Native" language and/or carry a tribal card ( which I do mind you ) dont call any person landing on our shores, or crossing our borders Invaders. That ship has sailed. Every century or so folks get all head up lead by some jack ass that immigrants are evil, dirty, disease ridden, unable to assimilate, and taking jobs. Was your family all those things when they came here? Look back at them for answers. I bet they werent. Neither are these folks. As for jobs When was the last time you picked tomatos for $2 an hour? When was the last time you did the lowest waged hardest work that no body else wanted to do and was damn thankful to have it. They arent taking our jobs.. they are doing* our jobs. The ones no one wants to do.. are too lazy to bother with.. or want more pay then the pitance of what they are willing to offer. ( and thereby we are willing to pay for the goods and services at that lower rate ) Only since "The Great Divider" started harping on the evils of Hispanics, and other migrants have people been head up. Americans are too damn stupid to see the deflecting tactic all of that was. Same with the Gays.. You think that all matters in the end? no.. it covered thier ass for the truly horrific shit they have been pulling in the background. Just like a magician waving their hands in a flashy manner so you dont notice what they have stuffed up thier sleeve. Being a nation of flagerant and willful obnoxious imbecilic fools we deserve what ever our govt dishes out. sighs Gwyn P.S. yes I believe they should learn the language... and folow the local laws. Just like when we travel abroad instead of being pissed someone in France doesnt speak English to us we should bloody well speak the language of the country we are in. We should also follow thier culture if we go abroad. We are some of the worst offenders. The world is so small any more.. there is no "This is mine you can't have any, go away!" any more... people need to learn how to deal with it. Gwyn

seeksfemslave -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 2:58:04 AM)
quote: stella41b Blaming the foreigner and illegal immigrants is missing the point somehow. If your family is poor and needs money and you can't find the work in your own country then sure, you're not going to respect the laws of your host country and you're going to give it your best shot. I have never blamed any foreigner. I even have no problems with controlled sustainable levels of immigration of people who have something to offer. What is happening in the UK is absurd, out of control and as implied in the title of this thread DANGEROUS. Groups with deep seated hatred of one another are coming in eg Kurds Pakistanis, Somalis have enemies but cant recall who lol.Diseased people are coming eg TB Hepititus and even HIV etc etc etc groan groan groan. Surely the obvious solution to the deprivation and poverty that exists in many parts of the world is to try and solve it at source. Guess what, the leaders there will not allow interference eg par excellence Robert Mugabe. The blame for this catastrophe rests squarely on the shoulders of weak kneed idealistic politicians who simply have not got the guts to face facts. When it is too late it is not impossible that real hard line right wingers will make a bid for power, that depends on the economy IMO. A widespread banking collapse, see Northern Rock for early indicators, could do it.

GoddessMine -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 3:03:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: Regarding immigrants Epgah said 4.) Obey our laws! If your "culture" and our law come into conflict, follow OUR ways, not your own, or please return to a country where YOUR ways are practiced. Absolutely "spot on" I would go even further...no please return etc... I would say ...you will be returned etc Yes, but the problem is that America returns'em alive, and they find it great fun to keep hopping back into a country they disrespect so much...[;)] The UK at least has that Atlantic Ocean annoying SOME of them into staying put, but from what I've been reading lately, that is losing its effectiveness! In both cases (UK and US), there is a BIG reward for invading (Subsidized housing, preferential treatment for jobs, "free" translations, etc.), and no REAL punishment when they're caught, either to the invaders themselves, or my preference, a big "damages bill" to the country they invaded from, and more than likely, were siphoning money TO! rolls her eyes Living on this side of the pond.. in the US... I hate this portion of the population that sees immigrants.. and yeah I dont give a fig how they got here in this bit.. as invaders. You lil fckers were invaders hundreds of years ago. Not now. You took the land and slaughtered the origional inhabitants. Unless you speak a "Native" language and/or carry a tribal card ( which I do mind you ) dont call any person landing on our shores, or crossing our borders Invaders. That ship has sailed. Every century or so folks get all head up lead by some jack ass that immigrants are evil, dirty, disease ridden, unable to assimilate, and taking jobs. Was your family all those things when they came here? Look back at them for answers. I bet they werent. Neither are these folks. As for jobs When was the last time you picked tomatos for $2 an hour? When was the last time you did the lowest waged hardest work that no body else wanted to do and was damn thankful to have it. They arent taking our jobs.. they are doing* our jobs. The ones no one wants to do.. are too lazy to bother with.. or want more pay then the pitance of what they are willing to offer. ( and thereby we are willing to pay for the goods and services at that lower rate ) Only since "The Great Divider" started harping on the evils of Hispanics, and other migrants have people been head up. Americans are too damn stupid to see the deflecting tactic all of that was. Same with the Gays.. You think that all matters in the end? no.. it covered thier ass for the truly horrific shit they have been pulling in the background. Just like a magician waving their hands in a flashy manner so you dont notice what they have stuffed up thier sleeve. Being a nation of flagerant and willful obnoxious imbecilic fools we deserve what ever our govt dishes out. sighs Gwyn P.S. yes I believe they should learn the language... and folow the local laws. Just like when we travel abroad instead of being pissed someone in France doesnt speak English to us we should bloody well speak the language of the country we are in. We should also follow thier culture if we go abroad. We are some of the worst offenders. The world is so small any more.. there is no "This is mine you can't have any, go away!" any more... people need to learn how to deal with it. Gwyn Thank GOD for sane, critical thinkers like you! Oh, and Seeksfemslave - I have TB - WHAT, WHAT! Love, GM

Gwynvyd -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 3:08:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I agree with most of what you're saying, but I'd state it a little differently. It's not their unwillingness to assimilate that's troubling; it's their unwillingness to abide by American law when it clashes with their own traditions or moral code. People don't have to ASSIMILATE; in the privacy of their own home, they can eat and dress and sing and dance and basically do whatever they want. But no honor killings. No "I'm sorry, I don't accept customers carrying alcohol because I'm Muslim." No slaughtering protected animals just because you need them to carry out your voodoo rite. And again, this isn't a case where the free market is going to take care of things spontaneously and effortlessly. The law has its place. Sometimes laws go too far, and frankly sometimes laws don't go far enough. quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold Multiculturalism is not bad in and of itself. It is when the people with those delightful cultures don't want to assimilate and make their cultures another "part" of the rich fabric of Americana. I totaly agree LaM. The laws are there for reasons and we all need to abide by them. Period. We all need to know and speak the language of the country we are in. If at home, or with a group of our friends who speak our native language... fine speak it then.. but dont force others to speak your language to do biz. I know if I am overseas with my family I am most likely going to talk to them in English.. not what ever language of the country so it is easier. I have seen people get pissy here because a group of people was speaking a different language at a store while in line.. and instantly assumed they couldnt speak english. Never assume that. They said something nasty about the people.. and the guy turned around and told them in perfect english how rude they were. I agreed and made damn sure they knew what a shit ball they were for assuming. Never assume because they dont speak english they are stupid or cant bust out with it. ( I freaking hate that when people do that. ) Or that all hispanic looking people speak spanish. My girl is Cuban.. and her spanish sucks. LOL a 2nd year HS kid taking spanish can talk better then her. LOL just some thoughts. Gwyn, who has not read the thread all the way through and is going backwords.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 3:09:24 AM)
Gwyn: you seem to believe that because "immigrants" in the past did wicked things up to the point of almost genocide and their descendents today are complaining about immigration then that is a reason not to have sensible immigration control today.That is not a logical argument to make. edited the above to "make" it say what I really meant it to say lol With regard to low paid jobs, allowing "illegals" to do them will ensure that the pay remains low. Is that what you want ?

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 3:17:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub "English as our national language" proposals have come and gone...and doubtless will come and go again. Personally i think there are tremendous detriments to immigrants who refuse to learn to speak and read and write English, but if they can find an enclave to shelter them from those consequences, well, so be it. The next generation will speak English, as it has always been. It is racist to complain that the US population grows less "white"; that people of mixed heritages abound; that Y/you miss the good old days when a Vietnamese or Arab immigrant had a much more difficult time here. So what if we are less "white"? Don't hear the Israelis complaining that they accepted Ethopian Jews and thus are less "white". Maybe because they have a need to bond together. You'd think by now so would we. pinksugarsub After careful analysis I am determining that you are, indeed, addressing My post, pinksugarsub. I need to respond, and I will let you know right now that I am working very hard to be as diplomatic as possible. Please point out to Me where I complained about America becoming "less white". I resent the implication, and I would point out that this is a very fine example of how we must all be so PC because we might be accused of racism if we have any problem with someone of a different color. Heaven knows it couldn't possibly be because what they are doing is illegal and they don't belong here with an illegal staus. Oh,. no...it must be because their skin is a different color. That has to be the real (shhhhhhhhh) secret reason, doesn't it? The article linked in the OP also was not about racism. If you read it carefully, it has nothing to do with that. And I am tired of people reading a subtext that doesn't exist. And the posts on this thread also have nothing to do with racism. *It is not about immigration. It is about illegal entry into this country* and the disrespect shown to the legal residents. It is just so unfortunate that the main body of peoples who are causing these problems also happen to be of color. For this would never come up if we were having a problem with Canadians sneaking in from the north, would it? We might be up in arms about it, but at least the dreaded "race" accusation would not be entering the picture. I have no need to bond with *illegal aliens. They are taking jobs away from people who need them, they are draining the county resources, they are filling up our jails and they are marching in our streets demanding rights they have no business demanding. And don't anyone come at Me about how they are doing the jobs no one here will do. It is just so much BS. My daughter makes less than many of the illegals here, and she is a pre-school teacher working full time while going to college, and paying her own way, I might add! My other daughter works in a legal office and makes considerably less than $10 per hour. So please, everybody stop with the less than minimum wage defense. There is not a man standing in front of Home Depot who will take a job for less than $10 per hour. There is not a woman working for a private home cleaning service who earns less than $10 per hour. There is not one who has knocked on My door and asked if he can weed My yard. He will only charge $10 per hour. I am tired of hearing these people defended because they are working for the dregs while we all party and bring home big fat paychecks. It just ain't so! It makes good copy for the press, but it is a completely skewed take on what is really going on. I live with it every single day! Israel accepted the Ethiopian Jews. They were not illegal aliens sneaking into Israel.* I prefer to bond with upstanding people who are making their way honestly in the world. I have great compassion for the many who are just trying to make a better life. That doesn't excuse the fact that they should not be here under the circumstances they are. The United States can no longer afford to be forgiving and just keep taking in the rest of the world.. Or rescuing the rest of the world in their own little corner because those people can't get here. I can no longer afford it...you can no longer afford it. It has nothing to do with race. We are already being seriously injured by the mass illegal influx of these people. It doesn't help when they add insult to that injury. Please re-read My posts and be specific regarding your perception of My racism. I will appreciate a public response on this thread and will be checking for that response. If you can't think of an appropriate defense, then a simple "kumbaya" will do.

Gwynvyd -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 3:37:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Gwyn: you seem to believe that because "immigrants" in the past did wicked things up to the point of almost genocide and their descendents today are complaining about immigration then that is a reason not to have sensible immigration control today.That is not a logical argument to make. edited the above to "make" it say what I really meant it to say lol With regard to low paid jobs, allowing "illegals" to do them will ensure that the pay remains low. Is that what you want ? No what I am saying is Demonizing immigrants is ignorant and wrong. Every one here unless a Native came from some where else. ie. their families could have been concidered the same evil dirty immigants. Of course they forget that fact. Actualy I am quite involved in getting better wages for Migrant workers. ( that is why i know they are paid $2 an hour to pick tomatos. ) I live in Florida. We have a huge migrant worker population. There simply are not thousands and thousands of average Americans willing to work out in the heat 95+ F and 90% humidity for $2 bending over and breaking thier backs. Hell not even for minimum wage. I know I am not willing to work for under $15 an hour... and I sure as hell am not going to be in the heat, or doing any sort of labor. We need better immigration guidlines.. but demonizing them, the silly ways we are going about it and the alarmist knee jerk reactions people have are just ignorant. You can't pile them all up on a boat and ship them back.. they just keep coming back. You can't shoot them.. though with the way a few over here feel I am sure if it would fly they would get it passed. We have to be smart but conciderate about it. Want folks who are earning next to nothing to speak your language.. You have to offer language classes... for free. You have to reach out to them. Just as you cant say to a bum get a job. ( when he has no phone, no address, no work clothes and no skills to get said job ) who is the dumbass there? The change a situation some times you have to give people a hand up. You have to work at it.. and some times get your hands dirty.. but by gods.. you resolve something instead of just bitching about it. I like doers.. not whiners. It is the whole teach a man how to fish bit. This is why my church goes to the migrant camps and teaches English.. gives out clothing... and food. Same with the homeless. We reffer them to resources, and give them clothes and training. If you are not actively helping to fix the problem.. or resolving things.. no matter how small of a part you play in the whole picture.... you ( folks in general not you specific) are just another whiner. Just my thoughts.. Gwyn Yeah bleeding heart and all that. LOL

seeksfemslave -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 4:05:25 AM)
quote: gwynvyd Actually I am quite involved in getting better wages for Migrant workers. ( that is why i know they are paid $2 an hour to pick tomatos. ) I live in Florida. We have a huge migrant worker population. There simply are not thousands and thousands of average Americans willing to work out in the heat 95+ F and 90% humidity for $2 bending over and breaking their backs. Hell not even for minimum wage. The question to ask is why the Florida legislature allows such low paying, possibly illegal, working conditions to exist. NO? I sense you are emotionally committed to the problem but if you "fly off" on an emotional bender you will achieve very little IMO.

GoddessMine -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 4:17:38 AM)
I don't think being 'emotionally committed' to an issue negates any legitimacy to an argument. Love, GM

pinksugarsub -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 4:36:00 AM)
Dusty, i did not post in reply to You specifically. i posted to state my opinion as to what fears really motivate some people who complain about immigration, legal or not, into the US. i lived in north Florida during the Mariel Boat Lift and remember the hatred of somes whites towards the influx of Cubans and the code-speak for this was "let them learn to speak English". Dade County is now and has been for some time primarially hispanic, and it behooves visitors and residents to become bilingual as a fact of life. i can't imagine why You felt singled out by my post, and i'm sorry You were distressed unnecesarially. pinksugarsub

stella41b -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 4:54:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: stella41b Blaming the foreigner and illegal immigrants is missing the point somehow. If your family is poor and needs money and you can't find the work in your own country then sure, you're not going to respect the laws of your host country and you're going to give it your best shot. I have never blamed any foreigner. I even have no problems with controlled sustainable levels of immigration of people who have something to offer. What is happening in the UK is absurd, out of control and as implied in the title of this thread DANGEROUS. Groups with deep seated hatred of one another are coming in eg Kurds Pakistanis, Somalis have enemies but cant recall who lol.Diseased people are coming eg TB Hepititus and even HIV etc etc etc groan groan groan. Surely the obvious solution to the deprivation and poverty that exists in many parts of the world is to try and solve it at source. Guess what, the leaders there will not allow interference eg par excellence Robert Mugabe. The blame for this catastrophe rests squarely on the shoulders of weak kneed idealistic politicians who simply have not got the guts to face facts. When it is too late it is not impossible that real hard line right wingers will make a bid for power, that depends on the economy IMO. A widespread banking collapse, see Northern Rock for early indicators, could do it. I never said you did Seeks, and I entirely agree with you about the situation in the UK. Our benefits system is already overloaded, and it can take up to 4 months in some areas to set up an Income Support claim. A month for the standard JSA, during which time you're not supposed to work or have any income. How is it going to look in a year or two when we have Eastern European immigrants claiming benefits? The system has been crying out for reform for over 20 years. Yes there have been reforms, they've introduced the Child Support Agency to chase up maintenance payments, the Social Fund to lend those on benefits money, and made the rules much tougher. Ah, but you see, the thing is we need a much better benefits system. This is partly because education cutbacks in the 1980's has produced a generation for which many can't string a grammatically correct sentence together (but this could be also from smoking the weed) or communicate in any other language than textspeak, who are, as they get older, are going to become unemployable anyway, especially after we welcome the Turks, Ukrainians and Moldavians into our highly competitive employment market. Then you've got the pensioners, and the population of people over 65 is getting bigger. Unless you're paying a huge chunk of your salary into a pension fund you're probably going to end up on a State pension anyway. People seem to have forgotten all about Robert Maxwell. How many other Robert Maxwells do you think are working in the City? The Housing Benefit reforms were a complete joke and were designed to remove the private landlord from the equation altogether so now the money is shared between local councils, homeless 'charities' (the big boys who've become big business in their own rights) and the government. This means seeks if you ever lose your home and end up on the streets you've got to have something major wrong with you to ever have any hope of finding any sort of accommodation. Are you going to rent a room in your home out to someone on benefits knowing that (a) you're unlikely to get any Housing Benefit paid to you as a landlord within 9 months to a year and (b) the amount you do receive when you get it is probably going to be far less than the rent you actually wanted for the room. I work in a day centre for the homeless and also go out with a CAT team in Central London officially registering street homeless people - people who have no right to any help whatsoever because they don't have a bank account or a permanent address. People street homeless over 10 years is increasingly common. The record is a homeless couple living in a hostel for the homeless, on benefits and Housing Benefits for 25 years. This is how our homeless 'industry' works. A homeless person gets a place in a hostel, a room, for which the Housing Benefit pay say £150 a week. However if the homeless person finds a job they must pay £230 a week for the room. Now you tell me, what chance has a homeless person living in a hostel got of supporting themselves through finding employment? But also consider that there's a lot of people working in low paid jobs who once received that little bit of extra help either through income tax relief or additional supplementary benefits, Council tax relief and so on. Now they don't get any help and what you have now in Britain are many people in low paid jobs who are working full time who are worse off than people claiming benefits, and yes, they are angry and resentful. You're also getting a large proportion of native benefit claimants who are unemployed but who don't want to be forced into low paid jobs. They get called lazy by the popular media and politicians. They're not. They're just smart. Are you going to put yourself into a situation where you are worse off financially but have the additional expenses of working and also knowing that you've got to work damn hard for the profits of some company or large multinational corporation for who you are dispensible anyway? Meanwhile you've got the same mealy-mouthed politicians living in the pockets of the City - who are in my opinion the real parasites in Britain, along with the banks - and a very happy media industry who work to keep us all entertained and 'amused' by all the claptrap, bull, surveys, celebrity gossip and stories about paedophiles hanging round schools, illegal immigrants and asylum seekers who somehow 'magically' get given flats and State handouts (they do, but they've waited long and hard for them like everyone else) not to mention the personal issues of Victoria and David Beckham. This wouldn't happen in any other country, but it's happening all around us in the UK and no matter who you are or what you're doing be very sure that you're being fleeced, hoodwinked, ripped off and scammed by the Establishment. Oh, and since you did mention the refugees such as Kurds and Somalis. Have you ever wondered how they get here in the first place? I have never seen any scheduled flights from Mogadishu, I know British Airways doesn't have a Refugee Class, yet these people who claim to have lost everyone and everything in their lives still nanage somehow to arrive at Heathrow on scheduled flights. I don't subscribe to the Daily Mail theory that they managed to scrape together the £500 air fare to get here under their own steam. My theory is that somebody helped them get here, and somebody in the Establishment is getting paid for each and every one of them who arrives. I have nothing against genuine refugees and asylum seekers, we should help all we can. But I think it's high time the British got together en masse, in general strikes, demonstrations and maybe even a revolution to remind Westminster that millions of Brits also need help and they want the help they've been denied for so many years. And they want it NOW.

Politesub53 -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 5:17:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stella41b Had these colonial powers and imperialists traded honestly in their colonies and not exploited them but invested in their infrastructure and economies then there might not have been any need for illegal immigrants. If thats so why have so many from Eastern Europe come to the UK ? Are you really saying that the Polish were better off under Russian rule ? I suspect most Poles would rather have the freedom they have today, even if they have had a rough ride since communism fell.

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/28/2007 5:37:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Gwyn: you seem to believe that because "immigrants" in the past did wicked things up to the point of almost genocide and their descendents today are complaining about immigration then that is a reason not to have sensible immigration control today.That is not a logical argument to make. edited the above to "make" it say what I really meant it to say lol With regard to low paid jobs, allowing "illegals" to do them will ensure that the pay remains low. Is that what you want ? No what I am saying is Demonizing immigrants is ignorant and wrong. Every one here unless a Native came from some where else. ie. their families could have been concidered the same evil dirty immigants. Of course they forget that fact. Gwyn, I understand that you are using a word (demonizing) which you feel is appropriate. I disagree, and I don't hate the people. I do hate what they are doing to our nation as a whole, and in particular, what I see in My southwestern region. I think the first thing I want to make clear is that I strongly differentiate between the words "immigrants" and "illegal aliens" or the now more acceptable and PC "undocumented workers". I think if people can get past that, instead of throwing up the immediate objections of what happened generations ago when society was not as complicated or as crowded, perhaps it will become easier to recognize the other side of the argument. By the by, the "dirty immigrants" that you refer to were legal. They may have had to work hard to be accepted and assimilate, but they did assimilate. Again, I wish to state clearly that I have no problem with "legal immigrants". I have a big problem with "illegal aliens". The very fact that they are here illegally is all the reason I need to be unaccepting. I make My judgements about others on an individual basis. quote: Actualy I am quite involved in getting better wages for Migrant workers. ( that is why i know they are paid $2 an hour to pick tomatos. ) I live in Florida. We have a huge migrant worker population. There simply are not thousands and thousands of average Americans willing to work out in the heat 95+ F and 90% humidity for $2 bending over and breaking thier backs. Hell not even for minimum wage. Are these "legal migrant workers" who are here for the picking season, or are they illegal aliens who are unskilled or in semi hiding so they are taking what they can get? That is meant as a straighforward question for you, and not meant to be confrontational. In addition, I do think that $2 per hour is a horrible wage for such difficult work. But I would also question how I am going to be able to afford tomatoes when you manage to get the wage raised? Why are tomatoes $3 per pound, if the pickers are only earning $2 an hour for picking them? I know My answer, but I am curious as to your answer.) I am having difficulty now buying tomatoes on a regular basis at upwards to or even more than $3 per pound in My grocery store. quote: I know I am not willing to work for under $15 an hour... and I sure as hell am not going to be in the heat, or doing any sort of labor. I would not want to work for $2 per hour either. I am fortunate that I have other options and I don;t have to work for $2 per hour. But I would also like to mention that entire families come up for these picking seasons...it is what always happened here when they legally entered as guest workers. If a family of 5 is picking they are actually earning, as a collective, $10 per hour. They were also provided a place to stay for the time they were picking. These guest workers also moved from crop to crop. Then they went home. And a family earning $10 per hour as a collective is going back to a place where the cost of living is much, much cheaper, and they are much better off for having worked those few months, even though they were only paid $2 per hour each to do that work. I have no problem with that. I also know teens who used to take summer jobs such as these, but, 'tis true, they are all spoiled now and would rather be lazy for the summer and feel no need to earn their way or be productive. Nor do their parent instill any sort of work ethic or tell them that they can do a little manual labor for a few weeks and earn their new school clothes. shrug On the borders of My valley, where we still have some sizeable farms, residents are invited to go into the fields and pick their own crops for a cost considerably less than what they would pay at the grocery store. Many of us take advantage of that and do so. I realize it is not a solution to the overall problem of "getting the crop in", but you refer to "thousands and thousands". I assume you are speaking nationwide? Or is that just Florida? quote: we are going about it and the alarmist knee jerk reactions people have are just ignorant. You can't pile them all up on a boat and ship them back.. they just keep coming back. You can't shoot them.. though with the way a few over here feel I am sure if it would fly they would get it passed. I don't think I have a "knee jerk" reaction. I am taking a long view with an eye towards what is already happening with this influx of illegal workers. Taking a long view is not a "knee-jerk" reaction. Actually, at this point, it is a pretty short view. We are out of time and can no longer dilly dally around and endlessly discuss and argue this problem. It needs to be resolved. No, I am, not for shooting them. I am for no further amnesty and severe fines and other penalties to those who are hiring illegals. Why can't we ship them back? Why do they keep coming back? If there is little reason to get here, then they will eventually stop coming. quote: We have to be smart but conciderate about it. Yes, we certainly do need to get smart about this. My definition of smart and yours would differ on this issue. I don't feel we need to be considerate. If you want to be considerate, go to their country and volunteer your time there. Do something about making their legal home a better place for them to live, instead of feeling like we (USA) are obligated to absorb all these people and pay them a good wage while we are doing so. We have absolutely no obligation to allow them entry, except under the current immigration laws. If they are here illegally, we surely have no obligation to be considerate and understanding and sing them lullabyes each night after their hard day's work. quote: Want folks who are earning next to nothing to speak your language.. You have to offer language classes... for free. You have to reach out to them. Just as you cant say to a bum get a job. ( when he has no phone, no address, no work clothes and no skills to get said job ) who is the dumbass there? The change a situation some times you have to give people a hand up. You have to work at it.. and some times get your hands dirty.. but by gods.. you resolve something instead of just bitching about it. I like doers.. not whiners. We do offer language classes...for free. At My county library system. And English classes for adults at night in the public school.s Why do you think we are not offering English? Why do you assume that the reason these people cannot speak English is because they have no access to classes? There are 2 reasons they do not speak English. 1. They choose not to. (La Raza!) 2. They are afraid to access the public services for education since they are illegal and they do not want to be tracked. In other words...once again, they are here illegally. However, we are at a point in this country where no questions are ever asked. Their children are registered in our schools and they are being taught English in ESL classes. It is more than obvious that these children ar here illegally with parents who are also here illegally. But nothing is said. I don't want to deny children an education (or even adults who seek it, for that matter), but there comes a point when we must not turn our heads. We need to be realistic and face the fact that we are not capable of being the world's Mama. We no longer can afford it. And it is not just the guest workers who are here for the picking season. It is a flood. I am a doer. I do not help them. I close the door when they knock on it asking for yardwork. That's My contribution along with My emails and phone calls to My Representative an Senators in Washington, D.C. quote: It is the whole teach a man how to fish bit. Wonderful. I absolutely agree. Do it in their country. Make their part of the world a better place for them. They do not need to come here to learn how to fish and then fish in our waters. They need to learn how to fish in their own waters where they legally belong. quote: This is why my church goes to the migrant camps and teaches English.. gives out clothing... and food. Good for you. If these were people who had no where else to go, i.e., political asylum etc. I would admire your work wholeheartedly. I might even be pitching in Myself. But these are people who choose to leave their homes and come to the United States, *illegally, and then look to people like you and your church to abet them in their illegal activity. Not only abet them , but to assist in impriving their wages and conditions! I hope I am reading this part of your post correctly: quote:* You can't pile them all up on a boat and ship them back.. they just keep coming back. You can't shoot them.. It is these words that lead Me to the conclusion that you are working with those you know are in this country illegally. Please forgive Me if I am misunderstanding. quote: Same with the homeless. We reffer them to resources, and give them clothes and training. Excellent. That is good work. And the very fact that you need to split your charitable volunteerism between the homeless legal citizens of our country, and the illegal aliens who are working for $2 per hour tells Me that you have a skewed vision. What are you training these homeless people for? I assume a better a higher paying job than picking tomatoes for $2 per hour. Else they could do the job the illegals are doing. But they are American and they don't want that job do they? They would rather be homeless? quote: If you are not actively helping to fix the problem.. or resolving things.. no matter how small of a part you play in the whole picture.... you ( folks in general not you specific) are just another whiner. Just my thoughts.. Gwyn Yeah bleeding heart and all that. LOL As My final thought, I would offer, Gwyn, that you are not actively helping to fix or resolve the problem. You are exacerbating the problem. For by aiding these people in their illegal activities you are part of the problem. Not part of the solution. It is fine to be a bleeding heart if that is how you truly feel, but it would be much more productive if you would spill your heart's blood in their country, rather than in ours.

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