RE: Multiculturalim is dangerous?

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ottRopesandKnots -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangerous? (11/27/2007 1:00:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave The link locked when I tried to view it but I know of no stable multi cultural society in the whole world. Canada seems to be doing just fine thanks. Sure we have the occasional bump in the road, but that's to be expected. I know where our country has come from, and I can see where it's headed (from a multi-cultural point of view) and I have no concerns. My aging parents keep raving about the threat of immigration (lol, they came from Britain in the mid 60s) and I keep tellin' them that I'm the one who'll have to deal with it (and eventually any offspring I may have) and that I'm not worried in the least. I've had the opportunity to have friends of all sorts of ethnic and cultural backgrounds, participated in ceremonies of various religions (generallly weddings and/or funerals), and the variety of food is delightful! If "my" way of life and culture is so important I'll do my best to keep it alive by sharing it with my friends and family. I don't need silly protectionism and xenophobia to 'protect' my values.

kdsub -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 1:11:55 PM)
I do believe a decision needs to be made by all immigrants BRFORE they move to their new country. That decision is… can I abide by the laws of my adopted land…even if it opposes my beliefs. If the answer to that question is no then they should not migrate. As an example an Arab man here in St Louis killed his daughter because she shamed the family by dated a black man. His defense was it was allowed in his native country. It did not fly here. Imagine if a woman was raped in the UK and she was lashed with a whip because it was partly her fault. That action would have penalties there. What if a young immigrant girl was physically forced by her family to have her clitoris mutilated against her will? Nope not in the USA I only use these examples because they were in the news in my area. Bringing a culture and either blending it with the existing culture or keeping it separate is great and desirable… as long as they abide by the adopted countries laws. Butch

GoddessMine -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 1:23:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessMine Maybe...but ask any non-American what they picture when they think of an "American", and 100% will say 'white people'. It's true, I did a scientific sample study of My Japanese family. Love, GM GM, Do you know what I think of when I picture Japan? Yup, Japanese people. China? Chinese people. For some reason I just can't picture a lot of Black people in China or Japan like there are in the U.S. That simply isn't true. It's a little trickier with countries like Japan because ethnicity and nationality are often conflated, but there are Korean, Chinese, Filipino, Indian, and Arab populations there - many are in their 3rd generations already and consider themselves to be both identities. And remember that indigenous communities, such as Okinawans or the Ainu weren't even considered to be Japanese. I'll have to agree with Ellen and Philosophy - abide by the rules, and your culture/religion/tradition will be respected. However, it's never that clear-cut, and subtle nuances will have to be contextualized and defined - kinks worked out and such. Love, GM

NorthernGent -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 1:36:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Plus, we're different to the Americans, the French, the Germans, the Russians etc...they all have something akin to the Fatherland or Motherland or the American dream, this idea of a shared national goal. We've never had anything like that, we're far more comfortable in our own homes or in the garden shed trying to build something than wandering around dreaming about the great nation. It's just not us, it's not in our history: we've always valued the community over the nation, let's keep it that way. Hi NortherGent….Here I was shaking my head in agreement as I read your post...Thinking to myself we finally felt the same way about a subject. Then the section above…maybe it is the American history books full of anti-British propaganda…but I thought the sun never setting on the British Empire indicated a small amount of Nationalism…a little more than tinkering in the garden shed anyway. Butch Hi The English Empire was all about making money; the preferred method was to flood a country with civil servants and as few as possible soldiers in order to secure markets: there was no wish to conquer a people. Imperialism takes many forms: the Germans saw imperialism as a route to exemplify Germanic superiority, the English saw it as a route to make money. The English empire was driven by merchants/tradesmen, the German empire was driven by landowners, militarists and conservative nationalists. You have to remember that England was one of the few countries in Europe with a powerful Middle Class at that time, they had real political power, unlike Germany where the upper classes held court. At the height of the English Empire, the English only involved themselves in wars where their markets were threatened; by and large, the idea was to allow the French, Germans and Russians to kill one another in what were seen as amusing, petty squabbles over some grass and delusions of racial/cultural grandeur: the English idea was to make money at the least possible cost. Nationalism is just not us; genuinely, we reserve our hostility for each other, and are largely indifferent to what is going on outside of our island, or even outside of our respective counties. In terms of tinkering in the garden shed, the modern world is marked with the stamp "Made in England", and that didn't happen by squabbling over some land somewhere, it happened by people getting their heads down and solving problems.

NorthernGent -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 1:40:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen In the end, I view a nation as a kind of club. If one wishes to be and remain a member of the club, then one abides by the rules of the club. One participates in the activities of the club, and one enjoys the benefits of the club. One is proud of one's membership and supports the club. One takes part in forming the rules of the club, one pays one's dues on time and one does not exclude new members because they are new, nor indeed does one vilify the older members of the club for their age. One does not exclude on the basis of ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender or whatever - membership is open to all who wish to be members and will abide by the rules. E Who runs the club/sets the rules, and what are they?

hands0n0knees -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 1:49:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: ORIGINAL: hands0n0knees Cultural relativists are philosophically sound, so long as they appreciate their 'discovery' as a moment of private irony. The public sphere does not operate on a different discourse, but it must yield to pragmatism and get it as right as possible, even if it's still wrong. etc etc bla bla bla A perfect example of the nonsense that modern Liberal education in the UK produces.lol I prefer to gloss it as the product of education, liberal or otherwise. Like it or not, you do agree with me. I don't know what you mean when you say you live in the midlands, but if it's Birmingham or (as it is for me) Leicester you will know the reality of the ghetto. Surely we need to recruit our population to something fundamental and universal to achieve the pragmatic stability the state needs to operate. The only philosophically sound principle/fundamental/universal that I know of and that could be easily accepted by everyone is the democracy 'still to come.' I would be glad to hear of a better one.

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 2:13:44 PM)
~fast reply~ I have been reading this for a couple of days and I have to say that I am absolutely facinated. Lady Ellen has made some excellent points with which I completely agree, and I also agree with EString that the article is well written and makes a lot of sense. For those who want to read something into it that isn't really supposed to be there, that is a serious problem. Multiculturalism is not bad in and of itself. It is when the people with those delightful cultures don't want to assimilate and make their cultures another "part" of the rich fabric of Americana. We enjoy all sorts of cuisine in this country. We are just as likely to have Hungarian Goulash in My house as hamburgers on the grill. I live in the Southwest and I have attended Quincenieras as well as thrown Sweet Sixteens. Cinco de Mayo does not pass here without some major block parties. In *all* of the neighborhoods! I have celebrated Hannukah with neighbors and invited their kids to help us decorate the Christmas Tree. I live next door to an Indian Reservation and those kids come to our school, and we, in turn, have the privilege of learning about the traditional Indian life and stories and our kids learn to do Sand Painting and entertaining Indian Dance Movements. We all need to respect each other without trampling on each other or insisting our way is the best and the only way. Yes, there are always going to be those who are close minded, and there are days when I can almost see Myself becoming closeminded. That is born of a resentment that there are too many who raise their individual cultures above and beyond the entire idea of being American first. Because the Woman with the veil needs to understand that if she wants a driver's license she needs to uncover her face for the required photo. The purpose of that photo is not to make her break her own cultural or religious law; it is to provide the appropriate photo identification that is required of everyone by law if they want that driver's license. If cool dudes cannot wear sunglasses in their photo, why should she be allowed to have 90% of her face covered? If she can't live with that, she doesn't need a license and will have to make sure she has a ride. shrug It is all so screamingly simple to Me. I go to certain areas of Phoenix and I cannot even find out what aisle the rice is on if I do not speak Spanish. I am not kidding. Yet most of the stores everywhere else have bi-lingual employees who can help out a customer who does not speak English. In other words...in their little corner of the neighborhood, those immigrants (illegal or not) don't give a rat's ass if you speak English. In the other little corners of the neighborhood, efforts are made to ensure that there is customer service for all. That is the most blatant example I can give and say I experience constantly. People who come to the United Stares and then only want to live in their little comfort zone, speak spanish, make sure the food that is familiar is available every day, make sure they have plenty of tv stations to watch and radio stations to listen to so that they do not even have to try to learn the major language of the nation. There are pockets of population all over the southwest that completely ignore the fact that they are living in a new country and the only real difference is that they are carrying American dollars now instead of pesos. Speaking of pesos, we actually have pizza places in Phoenix that accept pesos in payment. Makes Me wonder why I had to exhange My dollars to pounds when I visited England, and why I had to make sure that I changed those pounds into Euros when I took the Chunnel to Paris. I think I should have been able to use My American dollars in both countires and not have all that hassle, and I also wonder why the hell nobody in Paris (except the official Louvre Guide) made English available to Me. I even had to figure out street signs that were in French! Gasp I could not get an iced tea and I could not order an AMerican Steak. Guess what! I survived and I chose to vacation there. It was a good experience for Me. AndiIf I ever decided to move, I would expect no less than to have to adjust to that culture. Whether to Paris, or New York....two different cultures for sure! With reference to the cab drivers who refuse to pick up fares who are carrying alcohol...That is one of the beauties of this country. That driver cannot and should not be forced to service anyone they don't want to. They have consequences. I read that link. It came up because those drivers were sueing for the right to refuse service but not have to take the consequence of that personal decison by going to the end of the line and waiting their turn again. As far as I know they did not win the right, and rightly so. When they are told that they must pick up anyone who needs a cab regardless of their personal feelings, then we are getting into a lack of respect for their personal religion and culture. I note that there are those who feel that mulit-culturalism is a good thing, as long as it doesn't effect their ability to hail a cab. Can't have it both ways folks! Those drivers need to take the consequences of their personal dfecisions and they also cannot try to make the other drives who will pick them up not do so, because it is offensive to them and their culture. Are you understanding this? I resent the political correctness that has gone so far in this country (USA) that everyone is afraid to ask any appropriate questions before hiring for fear of being accused of profiling or racism. When, in reality, all it means is that we are using common sense and the same ruler for all. In the end what this means to Me is that those who *choose* to emigrate (hopefully legally) need to assimilate. Assimilation does not mean a loss of culture. It means adopting the societal norms (like speaking English) and following the "rules of the club" as LE put it. It means having the opportunity to add the wonderful facets of your culture to the ever evolving and continually developing American culture. This country is about tolerance and melting pots and lots of different ideas and ways of doing things. We differ from state to state and region to region. But we are all American. *Not Pakistani...not African...not Italian....Not Irish. American!* And then you can add "I am American with an Irish heritage" if you choose. Be together overall and stop being so divisive with the constant need to be "different" and things just might get alot better. I have spoken from the American viewpoint here. I am aware that this multiculturalism affects some other countries also....I leave it to those of you to share your viewpoints. Some of you already have. Edited for the typos glaring at Me and for some additional clarity.

NonSceneDom -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 2:16:35 PM)
Multiculturism isn't dangerous - I've never known anyone riot about a difference in eating habits, dress, artistic appreciation or musical tastes. Its always about religion or blamed on religion! Yes, that includes you Christians..

Lordandmaster -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 2:38:21 PM)
I agree with most of what you're saying, but I'd state it a little differently. It's not their unwillingness to assimilate that's troubling; it's their unwillingness to abide by American law when it clashes with their own traditions or moral code. People don't have to ASSIMILATE; in the privacy of their own home, they can eat and dress and sing and dance and basically do whatever they want. But no honor killings. No "I'm sorry, I don't accept customers carrying alcohol because I'm Muslim." No slaughtering protected animals just because you need them to carry out your voodoo rite. And again, this isn't a case where the free market is going to take care of things spontaneously and effortlessly. The law has its place. Sometimes laws go too far, and frankly sometimes laws don't go far enough. quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold Multiculturalism is not bad in and of itself. It is when the people with those delightful cultures don't want to assimilate and make their cultures another "part" of the rich fabric of Americana.

EPGAH -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 2:45:17 PM)
If they don't assimilate, then aren't they just perpetuating their old "culture" here, including the very problems they were allegedly trying to flee (poverty, corruption, violence, disease)? GoddessDustyGold is right, there are some tracts of America where not only do our CUSTOMS (like language) not apply, but our laws are not counted there either, and indeed, the "locals" resent American law-enforcers "encroaching" on THEIR territory! Perhaps this is why they come over in such vast quantities, explicitly or implicitly so that they DON'T have to assimilate, they can just transplant their old "culture" and try to siphon off some of those First World benefits? If America's laws are so onerous to the invaders, they should either leave, or better yet, not come over in the first place!

Lordandmaster -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 2:49:17 PM)
Corruption and disease aren't culture, EPGAH. If you lived in places riddled by corruption and disease, you'd want to leave too. Yes, of course immigrants need to abide by our laws. No possible argument there, and I take a VERY dim view of immigrants' arguments to the effect that "This law shouldn't apply to me because it's not consonant with my beliefs." But what does "assimilate" mean? Does that mean they have to eat at McDonald's and get high-blood pressure and diabetes and shop at Wal-mart and watch NASCAR on TV? They have every right to their culture as you have to yours.

EPGAH -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 2:52:40 PM)
I agree, they should have their culture--IN THEIR COUNTRY! But take it off and put ours on if they plan on staying in America (Other than our jails) for any length of time...Something like "Leave your CRAP at the door" Culture Recidivism Arrogance Problems And they should start by learning the language of America (English)! Otherwise, of course, they are only coming to take advantage of our benefits, without benefiting us in return...This is called parasitism, or conquest, depending how militant they are about it...Things like marching in our streets under an enemy flag are a DEFINITE no-no!

Lordandmaster -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 3:01:04 PM)
Well, EPGAH, since I doubt you're a Choctaw or Chickasaw, your ancestors were immigrants too, weren't they? Why aren't other people entitled to the same opportunities that your family received? Anyway, are you objecting to ALL immigration or just illegal immigration? There's a difference, you know.

kdsub -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 3:06:19 PM)
NorthernGent There is no country more enslaved to the almighty dollar then America… so you see we are not really different…no more or less nationalistic than the UK…now if you'll excuse me I think I’ll go tinker in my garden shed Butch

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 3:17:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I agree with most of what you're saying, but I'd state it a little differently. It's not their unwillingness to assimilate that's troubling; it's their unwillingness to abide by American law when it clashes with their own traditions or moral code. People don't have to ASSIMILATE; in the privacy of their own home, they can eat and dress and sing and dance and basically do whatever they want. But no honor killings. No "I'm sorry, I don't accept customers carrying alcohol because I'm Muslim." No slaughtering protected animals just because you need them to carry out your voodoo rite. And again, this isn't a case where the free market is going to take care of things spontaneously and effortlessly. The law has its place. Sometimes laws go too far, and frankly sometimes laws don't go far enough. Well, I do agree, LaM, that sometimes laws go to far. It is the constant creation of new laws to salve a perceived discimination that bit by bit erodes away the rights of others. Where does one draw the line? Pretty soon it will be something that is near and dear to you and you feel is nobody else's business. That's the way it creeps up on people. If everything was legislated to satisfy the latest designer attitude, we would completely lose the idividuality and the ability to create our own opportunities and make or break them. That is what this country is about. I am of the personal opinion that a law that would go too far is one that tells any *private* taxi driver that he has to take anyone who wants a ride. It doesn't matter if they don't want to pick up the "fat" person, or the one with crying kids or the one carrying alcohol. If they want to allow a passenger to smoke, they should be able to . "This is a smoking taxi!" If they don't want you to smoke in their cab, then you respect that or find another cab. And if you don't want to ride in a "smoking" taxi because of previous passengers, that is your right. It works both ways. But we are so busy forcing everybody to follow the same rules, that we have completely lost our individuality and freedom of choice. There are no choices anymore, because we are all being made to adhere to one giant set of rules. And it is perfectly legal for the other private enterprise (the airport) to make rules regarding the refusal of a fare, i.e. "go to the back of the line and wait all over again". That is why it was right that they did not win the right to refuse *and keep their place in line*. I am a big proponant of personal freedom, so long as it doesn't horrednously step on others. If you have to wait for the next taxi, it is no big deal. It is a loss of 30 seconds for the customer. It is a loss of perhaps an hour and one less fare for the driver. They choose. Kind of like "no shirt, no shoes, no service". That might work on the Hawaiin beach, but I would not want to make the fine New York Restaurant serve anyone who walks in wearing bare feet and a pair of bathing trunks. Some of them will not seat a gentleman if he is not wearing a tie. Do you think they should be forced to change their dress code to make it more fair? No matter how hard people try, we cannot legislate fairness except at the most obvious and basic levels. Your "honor killings" would be a good example. They are deemed fair in another country, but completely illegal in the USA. There are too many definitions of "fair". It is too subjective. We get into trouble when we start comparing "honor killings" with picking up an arriving passenger or not at the airport. The first needs an enforceable law and a clear message that this isn't an acceptable solution to a personal problem. The second is not really that big a deal, is it? Just an example: Choosing to not learn English is another personal freedom. But, these days, it seems there are no consequences for refusing the learn the native language of your adopted nation. In fact, we are going out of our way to make sure that are no social consequences. Why do we go out of our way to make sure that illegal immigrants should be cut every break, but we will object if a Muslim(referring to a religious belief of course) taxi driver prefers not to pick up a person carrying alcohoI? Who has the bigger or more important right?

NorthernGent -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 3:20:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub now if you'll excuse me I think I’ll go tinker in my garden shed Butch Enjoy yourself, watch you don't wank yourself into a coma, though. Best Regards Edited to add: 'joke, by the way :-)

popeye1250 -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 3:24:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold ~fast reply~ I have been reading this for a couple of days and I have to say that I am absolutely facinated. Lady Ellen has made some excellent points with which I completely agree, and I also agree with EString that the article is well written and makes a lot of sense. For those who want to read something into it that isn't really supposed to be there, that is a serious problem. Multiculturalism is not bad in and of itself. It is when the people with those delightful cultures don't want to assimilate and make their cultures another "part" of the rich fabric of Americana. We enjoy all sorts of cuisine in this country. We are just as likely to have Hungarian Goulash in My house as hamburgers on the grill. I live in the Southwest and I have attended Quincenieras as well as thrown Sweet Sixteens. Cinco de Mayo does not pass here without some major block parties. In *all* of the neighborhoods! I have celebrated Hannukah with neighbors and invited their kids to help us decorate the Christmas Tree. I live next door to an Indian Reservation and those kids come to our school, and we, in turn, have the privilege of learning about the traditional Indian life and stories and our kids learn to do Sand Painting and entertaining Indian Dance Movements. We all need to respect each other without trampling on each other or insisting our way is the best and the only way. Yes, there are always going to be those who are close minded, and there are days when I can almost see Myself becoming closeminded. That is born of a resentment that there are too many who raise their individual cultures above and beyond the entire idea of being American first. Because the Woman with the veil needs to understand that if she wants a driver's license she needs to uncover her face for the required photo. The purpose of that photo is not to make her break her own cultural or religious law; it is to provide the appropriate photo identification that is required of everyone by law if they want that driver's license. If cool dudes cannot wear sunglasses in their photo, why should she be allowed to have 90% of her face covered? If she can't live with that, she doesn't need a license and will have to make sure she has a ride. shrug It is all so screamingly simple to Me. I go to certain areas of Phoenix and I cannot even find out what aisle the rice is on if I do not speak Spanish. I am not kidding. Yet most of the stores everywhere else have bi-lingual employees who can help out a customer who does not speak English. In other words...in their little corner of the neighborhood, those immigrants (illegal or not) don't give a rat's ass if you speak English. In the other little corners of the neighborhood, efforts are made to ensure that there is customer service for all. That is the most blatant example I can give and say I experience constantly. People who come to the United Stares and then only want to live in their little comfort zone, speak spanish, make sure the food that is familiar is available every day, make sure they have plenty of tv stations to watch and radio stations to listen to so that they do not even have to try to learn the major language of the nation. There are pockets of population all over the southwest that completely ignore the fact that they are living in a new country and the only real difference is that they are carrying American dollars now instead of pesos. Speaking of pesos, we actually have pizza places in Phoenix that accept pesos in payment. Makes Me wonder why I had to exhange My dollars to pounds when I visited England, and why I had to make sure that I changed those pounds into Euros when I took the Chunnel to Paris. I think I should have been able to use My American dollars in both countires and not have all that hassle, and I also wonder why the hell nobody in Paris (except the official Louvre Guide) made English available to Me. I even had to figure out street signs that were in French! Gasp I could not get an iced tea and I could not order an AMerican Steak. Guess what! I survived and I chose to vacation there. It was a good experience for Me. AndiIf I ever decided to move, I would expect no less than to have to adjust to that culture. Whether to Paris, or New York....two different cultures for sure! With reference to the cab drivers who refuse to pick up fares who are carrying alcohol...That is one of the beauties of this country. That driver cannot and should not be forced to service anyone they don't want to. They have consequences. I read that link. It came up because those drivers were sueing for the right to refuse service but not have to take the consequence of that personal decison by going to the end of the line and waiting their turn again. As far as I know they did not win the right, and rightly so. When they are told that they must pick up anyone who needs a cab regardless of their personal feelings, then we are getting into a lack of respect for their personal religion and culture. I note that there are those who feel that mulit-culturalism is a good thing, as long as it doesn't effect their ability to hail a cab. Can't have it both ways folks! Those drivers need to take the consequences of their personal dfecisions and they also cannot try to make the other drives who will pick them up not do so, because it is offensive to them and their culture. Are you understanding this? I resent the political correctness that has gone so far in this country (USA) that everyone is afraid to ask any appropriate questions before hiring for fear of being accused of profiling or racism. When, in reality, all it means is that we are using common sense and the same ruler for all. In the end what this means to Me is that those who *choose* to emigrate (hopefully legally) need to assimilate. Assimilation does not mean a loss of culture. It means adopting the societal norms (like speaking English) and following the "rules of the club" as LE put it. It means having the opportunity to add the wonderful facets of your culture to the ever evolving and continually developing American culture. This country is about tolerance and melting pots and lots of different ideas and ways of doing things. We differ from state to state and region to region. But we are all American. *Not Pakistani...not African...not Italian....Not Irish. American!* And then you can add "I am American with an Irish heritage" if you choose. Be together overall and stop being so divisive with the constant need to be "different" and things just might get alot better. I have spoken from the American viewpoint here. I am aware that this multiculturalism affects some other countries also....I leave it to those of you to share your viewpoints. Some of you already have. Edited for the typos glaring at Me and for some additional clarity. Dustygold, well said! I just don't think we "need" anymore "cultures" in our country at this point. We surely have them all. And unless they have skills that we need I don't think that immigration really helps the U.S. anymore like it did a hundred years ago. And, I think that there should be another criteria for any immigration if we want to continue to allow any; it shouldn't cost the Taxpayers of this country one penny. A lot of the protagonists for "multi-culturalism" make a living by it courtessy of the Taxpayers so naturally they want more of it! Funny, when my maternal greatgrandfather came to Boston from Sligo, Ireland "welfare" was according to my mother, "you don't work, you don't eat." U.M.s were born at home. You had to pay for a doctor. There really were few "benefits" in those days for legal immigrants much less illegal aliens. I think that if we can stop illegals from getting into the country and start deporting the ones that are here that people would be more friendly to "multi-culturalism." As things stand right now I'm for no more immigration and I make that clear to my elected officials. We simply can't continue to have 3-5 million people pouring into the country every year both legally and illegally.

pinksugarsub -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 3:32:12 PM)
"English as our national language" proposals have come and gone...and doubtless will come and go again. Personally i think there are tremendous detriments to immigrants who refuse to learn to speak and read and write English, but if they can find an enclave to shelter them from those consequences, well, so be it. The next generation will speak English, as it has always been. It is racist to complain that the US population grows less "white"; that people of mixed heritages abound; that Y/you miss the good old days when a Vietnamese or Arab immigrant had a much more difficult time here. So what if we are less "white"? Don't hear the Israelis complaining that they accepted Ethopian Jews and thus are less "white". Maybe because they have a need to bond together. You'd think by now so would we. pinksugarsub

Zensee -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 3:35:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EPGAH I agree, they should have their culture--IN THEIR COUNTRY! But take it off and put ours on if they plan on staying in America Your "culture"? Are you referring to that infantile pap which fills your TV and movie screens? Reality TV, celebrity exposes, Entertainment Tonight (a TV show about TV shows - WOW!!!). Luckily there is real culture in the USA and it mostly has it's roots in traditions brought here by them "dirty foreigners", including your language. But please, enlighten me to the proliferation of home brewed America, dyed it the wool culture that immigrants are supposed to subsume their identities to. Z.

EPGAH -> RE: Multiculturalim is dangurous? (11/27/2007 3:45:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Well, EPGAH, since I doubt you're a Choctaw or Chickasaw, your ancestors were immigrants too, weren't they? Why aren't other people entitled to the same opportunities that your family received? Anyway, are you objecting to ALL immigration or just illegal immigration? There's a difference, you know. Oh, the old Indian gambit--how original![:D] America conquered the Indians centuries ago, and gave them and them ONLY the right to have little enclaves with no tax responsibility to the host nation! As such, they have no incentive to assimilate, unless, of course, they want to come out and join the real world, with a wider range of privileges, but heavier responsibilities, including taxes! Oddly, there is a reservation near where I live, and they have CHOSEN to start modernizing--they want the benefits! America, however, does NOT have enough land to carve up into "reservations" for all the different "cultures" that want to stay behind...And if we did, there would be complaints that the areas we left for them are worse than our sparkling First World areas--and it would be, but because of them, not us! I'm not really objecting to any immigration in that post, although I object strenuously to illegal entry--NOT to be confused with immigration (I don't know who coined "illegal immigration", but it's an oxymoron!) If you come over to anyone's place, whether place of business, place of worship, or home, you do NOT simply tell them "the way it's gonna be", unless you're paying for it...This is what separates tourists from immigrants and illegals: First-Worlders BRING money, others TAKE money! If you come in and try to force your way on us, then expect a "backlash"...You are a guest, try NOT to be a pest! Don't be a parasite, don't be an invader! Or go ahead and be any of the above...just don't complain when you get negative consequences for negative actions! (Law-enforcement as regulated karma!) As GoddessDustyGold mentioned, different areas IN America have different codes of dress and behavior, and if you break them, you can be denied service. And as she also mentioned, there is not enough consequence for breaking other parts of America's "code"...Such as not being able to learn the language, due to stubbornness or retardation beyond Americans' wildest dreams, is rude, but if you CHOOSE not to learn English, then don't complain when people treat you as a second-class citizen and/or a non-citizen, whichever is applicable! But that would be a discrimination lawsuit, right?

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