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Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 8:41:52 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


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Perhaps this is more of an online problem than a whole-lifestyle issue, but something I find downright despicable in BDSM and D/s and M/s and etc is the rampant elitism: the feeling and expression that those who practice BDSM or engage in power dynamic relationships are some how more in tune with the scheme of being, some how better than those who do not engage in these same relationships.

Why is this? Why is there the assumption that one sexual identity is better or more special than another? Do we (as a whole, I do not do this) put ourselves on a pedestal so that we can feel more right about beating each other with canes and crops, or kneeling before our masters/mistresses, or looking down upon our lovers with a glimmer of sadistic nurturing in our eyes? What is it that you/they/we think is so special about this whole BDSM idea?

Some of us started off as vanilla, in regular, "normal" relationships where there was very little kink. Because most of us here are kinky, we felt more freedom when we expanded into roles that are kinkier than they were previously. Perhaps this...emergance into a greater part of ourselves makes us (again, as a whole) feel like...Hey, maybe everyone is this way and we're just more accepting/more enlightened/more special!

But not everyone *is* kinky, or even desires to be. So if the only thing you want out of life is an equal standing and missionary sex, does that somehow make you less of a person? Does it make you stupid or wrong or behind the times? No. Yet, the elitist attitude seems to imply that this is the case-that unless you are kinky, or submissive, or dominant, you aren't special, you aren't enlightened, you aren't true to your own humanity.

In this "lifestyle," we seem to look to be accepted. We want the world to know that WIITWD (what it is that we do) is okay, and natural, for us. *I* want my family and friends to know that my sexual orientation, my identity, my self is part of who I am, and I can't, and don't want to change that. But what people don't seem to see, in my view, is that this elitism, this "better than you" attitude, puts a big block in the understanding pool. No one wants to hear about how BDSM will improve your life if they aren't into it in the first place. All they want to know is, even though you're different, you have the same needs and wants as everyone else-the need to be loved, the need to survive, the need to be happy.
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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 8:47:28 AM   
nella


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This will happen in every culture, have you met many computer thecnicians? belive you me, they ahve a tendency to think oh so mutch metter of themself than of othethers becouse they know how a computer works, often alling not computer adept pepole sheep. Or members of political parties, or religions, every one of that type of sosieties have a tendency to end up in a we are best atitude.

Perhaps is is beocuse it feel so good for them, they feel it is so inportant in their life, whatever it now is they are arogant aboute, they can not imagine somone not having that thing and be just as good, just as happy pepole.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 8:50:09 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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Hi Kitten :)

We want to feel "special." We want bdsm to be MORE than what we had, and for so many people coming into bdsm it FEELS more to them, it FEELS like the most amazing thing.

When it's really just another relationship.

Why there is the "slaves are more awesome than subs" "switches aren't as serious as purists" or any of the other elitist statements is generally a matter of misunderstanding and lack of information and experience- and again a need to feel better.

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 8:57:19 AM   
Fidelity


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They get sucked into a fantasy, and beleive it to be reality. But like most balloons,it takes a lot of effort and hot air to keep it flying.

Which I find sort of silly,considering this is all based on a role playing sex game,of some sort or the other.

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 8:57:58 AM   
stormsfate


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Nope...in my experience its just as rampant in the real life scene as it is online. Never could stand it myself, but nella is right, it can be found anywhere...from the field of science to cheerleading.


best regards,
fate

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 9:01:18 AM   
nella


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Why do you think the crusades was started, the Popa sat looking out of his window one day and said to himself.

"Why, we are so mutch better than the muslims, why should they ahve Jerusalem and, well anything at all, for we are the Best, go get them boys!"

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 9:10:58 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


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Wow, you're reading my mind. That's the example I usually use when people throw the elitist crap at me :P

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 9:38:37 AM   
Padriag


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Hmmm... I smell an essay coming on, brace yourselves.

Why does elitism occur... the short answer is its an overcompensation for a feeling of inferiority or insecurity. Yes I just called all those elitist snobs insecure. It is true none-the-less.

Consider that the various kinks we indulge in as part of this style of life are generally taboo and something mainstream society doesn't accept and at times condemns. That means that for every one of use who chooses to pursue this style of life we have to step outside societies boundaries. That act alone can make a lot of people feel pretty insecure. One of the things society does for most people is give them a sense of place, of belonging, a sense that who you are and what you do is okay. When you step outside of what society accepts you contradict that, and if you aren't a very self secure person, you're going to feel the pressure of it and end up battling insecurity. That insecurity comes from having to define all those things for yourself that normally you could drawn on society for.

People deal with insecurity in different ways, one way is overcompensation. An insecure person may behave very aggressively, forcefully, with belligerance, with elitism, etc. as a way of overcompensating for a deeper feeling of insecurity / inferiority.

Taken from another angle lets look at it this way. Take any given group of people with similar interests. Lets say they all enjoy cooking, sounds harmless enough. Now divide them into two or more groups that specialize in different kinds of cooking... maybe one goes for fancy deserts and pastries, another goes for BBQ, another Itallian dishes. Watch them and you'll see elitism begin to emerge among some of them. Some of those Itallian cooks are going to begin acting as if their style of cooking is THE thing to do, and they may go so far as to criticize those BBQ guys for being country bumpkins, amateur cooks, etc. Meanwhile the pastry chefs think its all pretty silly since no meal would be complete without one of their amazing deserts. And the BBQ cooks will probably just think the other two groups are high society snobs who don't appreciate down home country cookin, that real food for real folks ya know! Why does it happen, insecurity. There's also an element of the fear of the unknown at work here too. People tend to be afraid of what they don't understand or aren't familiar with. That's why those groups begin to react that way, each is unfamiliar with the other's style of cooking (or kink) and reacts defensively. Until they find common ground to accept each other on that hostility will continue.

Here's another example. Stop and think for a moment about the kinds of differences people discriminate against others about. I'm betting just looking at things where you live, you can think of a very long list without much trouble. Things like race, gender, religion, politics, ideology, sexual orientation, clothing styles, music preferences, jobs, economic status, where you live, it just goes on and on.

All of that boils down to a "Us vs. Them" mentality that has been part of the human psyche for as long as there have been human beings. As human beings we are drawn to those most like us (birds of a feather flock together), and we tend to be suspicious of and hostile towards those unlike us.

So to sum up... you have elitism in the "BDSM Community" even towards its own members because some folks are feeling insecure about what they are doing. To overcompensate they work very, very hard to convince themselves what they are doing is right, "the one true way", regardless of what anyone (society) says. Unfortunately that makes them pretty intolerant of someone doing something differently than their "one true way". They get even harsher towards THEM... you know... Vanilla's... because its ultimately "vanilla" aka mainstream society that is the greatest source of their insecurity.

It takes courage to face the unknown, to face what you fear, to face others differences without reacting with hostility or fear. Ghandi said something particularly poignant about this.
quote:

Courage is the one sure foundation of character. Without courage there can be no morality, no religion, no love. One cannot follow truth or love so long as one is subject to fear.

Elitism and intolerance, in whatever form you find them, are born of fear and insecurity. It takes courage in one to overcome it... it takes encouragement for others for them to overcome it, and there can be no encouragement without courage.

There may be a pop quiz on this tomorrow... class dismissed.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 9:47:09 AM   
nella


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Interesting post Padriag, i think elitesime hovever is somthing one have to live whit, i think it is rather deep rooted in human nature. And still somtimes, sitting on the buss and watching the pea brained teenagers chat, i feel superior, i know i should not, but that littel elitisem gene in my roars its ugly head. i think it is in all of us.


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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 9:50:52 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


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*claps*

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 9:59:45 AM   
sub4hire


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quote:

So if the only thing you want out of life is an equal standing and missionary sex, does that somehow make you less of a person? Does it make you stupid or wrong or behind the times? No. Yet, the elitist attitude seems to imply that this is the case-that unless you are kinky, or submissive, or dominant, you aren't special, you aren't enlightened, you aren't true to your own humanity.


In my mind it only means you haven't blossomed yet. There is so much to explore in this world and a shame if you don't try it all at one time or another. I met a 60 year old woman a fwe year's back who had never had an orgasm in her life until she found the lifestyle. Things sure have changed for her since then.

I do believe some may enrich their lives when they find the lifestyle while other's are turned off. Speaking of play here only.
In vanilla relationships I see them all having a balance of power. So, I see D/s everywhere I look, many just cannot see it themselves yet.

I'm sort of out of the lopp when it comes to being accepted. Quite frankly I know myself very well. I can care less what people think of me. Those who I battle with will always have unkind words to say to me. Usually those unkind words coming from then are actually compliments coming to me. So, it is quite laughable.
I do believe you are correct a lot of people do want to believe they are better than other's. However, none of us are. We may be at different standings within our own lives but that can be taken from us at any moment.

Not sure if I added to your cause or not. Although they are my thoughts.


Off track...yet reading your posts makes me think of the thoughts I have been having the past few days so I will share them.
A few days ago there was a child who was hit by a car and killed out here in Los Angeles.
It was a hit and run, to my knowledge they have not found the person responsible yet.
Although it made me think to myself. That could be me. Even if I had the accident and hit the child and stopped. I'd still be charged with murder.
My life is going well...in a few year's I will have enough money to reitre with. Yet, my life could stop at a moments notice because of an accident.
Sit in prison for ten years...and have to start life over from scratch.

We are all the same underneath.

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 10:05:41 AM   
Fidelity


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Perfect Padriag.

I really do so see much posturing and chest beating as coming purely from insecurity. I feel that if more people just told themselves, "I do this because I think it's FUN.",so much of this would simply evaporate.

After all,if that is all the justification that you need (it makes you happy) there is no need to be so defensive. Otherwise, what happens is that you place yourself on one side of a fence,and everyone who does not agree on the other.

And fences have to be patrolled and repaired. That's just too damn much work and effort for me. I never look at myself as an "elite" anything.

I see it as a prison for the mind-I limit my opportunities if I do that.

And really,I can't see anything more ridiculous than defending a fantasy construct, that only exists in my mind. I'd rather RECOGNIZE it as one,and simply find a nice girl who likes to share it with me.

Could it get much simpler than that?

< Message edited by Fidelity -- 8/12/2005 10:11:05 AM >

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 10:12:52 AM   
Angrylibrarian


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hmm. while I agree with Padriag and want to digest his piece a little while longer. I can't help but wonder..

When is it ok to simply disdain "them/the others" because they are ignorant and not as good/intelligent/aware/educated/self actualised/ as I am? If we eliminate elitism we tend to eliminate objective value as well and end up with a qualitative relativism that lumps the worst in with the best.

just a thought.

Angry

(in reply to Fidelity)
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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 10:28:25 AM   
Fidelity


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I think we all have our own "things" we treasure.

I prefer the route of gentle education as to why *A* person finds what they do to be appealing-but not set that mode of happiness as the default that all others must abide by.

*smiles*

There is no one path to fulfillment-there are many-even for the same individual. Is not limiting oneself, doing a disservice?

There is a difference between being strong-and being brittle.

When the hammer falls,what is left in it's wake is the proof.

< Message edited by Fidelity -- 8/12/2005 10:29:15 AM >

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 10:46:26 AM   
pinkpleasures


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Elitism is close to bigotry or mysoginy or xenophobia..maybe not as offensive on its face but in my book just as bad for the harm done to the class described as "lesser". Padraig is right -- it is a temptation to anyone and some people cannot resist because they need to describe an "elite class" which they belong to support a poor self-esteem. Personally, i think this also gives rise to mysoginy and xenophobia. This is pretty close to why some people act like bullies, though that's a bit more complicated, since childhood abuse can contribute to bullying. i have run across the attitudes such as "slaves are better than submissive women"; "experienced subbies are superior to novices"; etc. i imagine everyone has encountered this phenom.

But there can be no elite class in a world as chaotic, expanding, changing and exciting as BDSM. Sure, You can be a Grand Imperial Master -- but only in your own mind. A lack of respect for any person based on anything other than that person's actions incurring a lack of respect would cause me to lose interest in a Man fast.

pinkpleasures


< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/12/2005 10:48:52 AM >


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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 10:49:37 AM   
bmcelhinney


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I don't think it's just in the BDSM community either. Many online communities feel that they are "better" than those outside of the community because their lives have been enriched in some way by their interests.

What few people take into account is that everyone has different interests that enrich their lives in different ways, so while one may percieve themselves to be better, they are simply different. Just becuase you enjoy BDSM doesn't mean everyone else will, just like not every person interested in BDSM will enjoy drag racing.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 10:53:49 AM   
cellogrrlMK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

quote:

So if the only thing you want out of life is an equal standing and missionary sex, does that somehow make you less of a person? Does it make you stupid or wrong or behind the times? No. Yet, the elitist attitude seems to imply that this is the case-that unless you are kinky, or submissive, or dominant, you aren't special, you aren't enlightened, you aren't true to your own humanity.


In my mind it only means you haven't blossomed yet. There is so much to explore in this world and a shame if you don't try it all at one time or another. I met a 60 year old woman a fwe year's back who had never had an orgasm in her life until she found the lifestyle. Things sure have changed for her since then.

I do believe some may enrich their lives when they find the lifestyle while other's are turned off. Speaking of play here only.
In vanilla relationships I see them all having a balance of power. So, I see D/s everywhere I look, many just cannot see it themselves yet.



Interesting that this subject (the whole thing, not just your post Gloria) has been brought up. A friend of mine made a post on a vanilla site congratulating me and MrKite on our upcoming 1st wedding anniversary (tomorrow ). Apparently her post sparked some "discussion" about us in this (vanilla) site's chatroom. Shortly thereafter I got an IM from someone I knew there before we left the site (or rather, got booted from because we got married). After a bunch of hemming and hawing he said he had to ask me a question and would I answer him honestly, to which I answered of course, ask away.

He then said he had heard that MrKite and I were M/s, and was this true? Of course I answered him yes and he was shocked... he claimed to never have known anyone who did that, although a very close friend of his is definitely into it LOL. I asked him if he'd every tied someone up with a silk scarf (no), spanked someone in fun (noooo) or had given or received a hicky (nooooooooo). My first thought, which I did not convey to him, was "geez, no wonder you don't have a girlfriend!" LOL The very idea of any of that was repugnant to him, but he thanked me for my honesty and told me that he wasn't judging me. Of course when I asked where he had heard the information he said he was "sworn to secrecy" and wouldn't tell me who said this.

I told him I was not ashamed and had nothing to hide and was not being taken advantage of or abused or anything like that, and if he had any other questions for me I'd be more than happy to answer them. This poor guy was so shocked that I "admitted" this rumor was true he couldn't really say anything else, except to thank me for my honesty and that I wasn't trying to "influence" him.

Do I look down on him because he appears to me to be completely sexually boring? Nah... first of all, I can't be bothered worrying about other peoples' relationships. I suppose I could feel sorry for him because his sex life sounds so boring but nah, I don't have time for that either. I don't think he will "blossom" in the sense that Gloria used the term. Some people are happy with the way things are in their lives, and if they are happy then I am happy, and it's not my place to try to change them.

cello


_____________________________

There's too much Blood in my Caffeine system!

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 11:01:53 AM   
Tempestspet


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I think you'll find that the people who are elitist here, or about BDSM.... are the same way in the rest of their lives.


...The following is a side kind of a side note to what the op wrote about telling family and such....
Most all of my family (that I can think of) knows of some level of my life...including M/s. They know to the level of their comfort, and or understanding. I don't push it on anyone, but nor do I hide it. If they ask a question family or friend.... or otherwise, they get an apropriate answer.
I just....am. I do not hide, did that...and it sucked.

Now my question would be about the elitists..... are they out? Or do they still hide? How can you be that much better than anyone, if you hide?

That's how I would look at it, when some jerk comes at you, trying to say, imply, or think they are better than the next person.
Maybe the better person, would say anything at all.... just go on about their lives. Be friendly.....

Well, it's been awhile....just thought I'd throw my 2cents out there.

Temepst's pet
jennifer

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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 11:06:16 AM   
pinkpleasures


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Welcome back, Tempestspet..you were missed. As for me, i'm not doing anything so there's not much pressure to tell my family. My girlfriends know (and are very interested) but that's all. Shall i hang my head in shame? My circumstances are not the same as yours..i have a crazy ass family and a kid i want to protect.

Maybe if i ever find Him i'll reconsider.

And yes, i know you respect me, as i do you.

pinkpleasures


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RE: Elitism in BDSM/Ds/WIITWD - 8/12/2005 11:16:32 AM   
Tempestspet


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Well, it's true, my family is different...laughs....my parents go to Folsom Street Fair, and stuff like that.... soooo
Now, my grnamd.... well she just knows that John's the boss. Period. She's cute though.... she doesn't understand all the ins and outs, but when she wants to do something together.... she asks if it's ok with John...grins...


Not completely typical I suppose. Now, Master and I have 3 chilren 8th gr. to 1st grade. and all they know, is that mom and dad have a very healthy, respectful relationship. Gosh...there's a lot of other examples, none of which I'd care to give them. A friend asked one time if the kids ever saw us play.....

my mouth just kind of hung open for a second, then I answered with... no, but then again would you have sexual activity in front of your kids? Play is the same way. .... she understood, blushed, laughed... and on went life.


I'm with some others. I'm all about presenting a good, responsible, grown up aproach to all this in public.... letting people understand, and see it's not as horrible as some groups would like for it to be.


Temepst's pet
jennifer

(in reply to pinkpleasures)
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