RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (Full Version)

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IrishMist -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:04:34 AM)

quote:

Like it or no, one develops a reputation in a community. It can be good or bad. And while it's sometimes tarnished by the standard back biting and gossip we see here- it's all that most new subs have to go on,beyond spending time with a Top. Which can be extremely dangerous in the wrong situations.
 
 As far as levels of play go-I simply prefer to do things my way. Maximum results for minimum damage, I really don't care what the rest of you think about what I consider to be skill. I see damaging a toy needlessly as incompetent. And yes, that IS "my way"
 
 Do whatever you want, your way. 

tsk tsk

Sounds like the armor is chipping away




RCdc -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:12:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Machts

Like it or no, one develops a reputation in a community. It can be good or bad. And while it's sometimes tarnished by the standard back biting and gossip we see here- it's all that most new subs have to go on,beyond spending time with a Top. Which can be extremely dangerous in the wrong situations.
 
 As far as levels of play go-I simply prefer to do things my way. Maximum results for minimum damage, I really don't care what the rest of you think about what I consider to be skill. I see damaging a toy needlessly as incompetent. And yes, that IS "my way"
 
 Do whatever you want, your way. 


No - tops, submissive, switches, slaves, bottoms, dominants - regardless of orientation should not rely only on references.  That is the worse advice to place on a messageboard that can be viewed by those 'new' people you are on about.  Take responsibility for yourself first - not other peoples second hand information.  Go to a party - watch someone at work.  Take time to get to know someone.  Work out what you want, need and where your threasholds lay.  Work slowly and don't just jump.  And if you do go to a party and just are dying to scene or play and do - then understand that no still means no and if someone wants to play with you without knowing your medical history, your pain, your weakness and strengths then take some fucking self responsibility and don't blame it on the 'referees' when it all goes pearshaped.
 
the.dark.




RCdc -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:16:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

My leash right now is stretched to it's limit; I plan to keep it reigned in lol.


Darcy is away and has given me 'free reign'... [:D] Damn I love that man - he knows and understands my 'steam' settings.[:)]
 
the.dark.




Machts -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:19:05 AM)

It's actually extremely common in my community for women to ask for refferences. But it's not as if they rely on that alone-they often only play in the club on a first date. Still, they do ask, and they do it for a reason. I would advise people to consider that as well. And be prepared to have spoken with past partners-to be able to offer them.

Just because the two above posters don't like this-doesn't mean it has no value.

It's one of the way that skill is known to be factual.  That people HAVE seen and experienced a Top at play.




Jeffff -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:19:05 AM)

Sadly you two are missing the point. Being dominant means never having to admit your wrong...:)

Jeff

"Certified always Right"




RCdc -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:28:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Machts

And be prepared to have spoken with past partners-to be able to offer them.

Just because the two above posters don't like this-doesn't mean it has no value.

It's one of the way that skill is known to be factual.  That people HAVE seen and experienced a Top at play.



Oh yes - all references shown will be glowing - ohhhhhh - and ... and... and don't forget to ask for references from the past partners who didn't have such a great time as well.  I am sure those reference will be as readily available.  Must NOT forget them.[8|]
But no one ever offers those up hey? 
 
Did I say I didn't like it?  No.  I believe it's pointless to use as the 'only' option.  It's a great way to deny self responsibility.
 
the.dark.




RCdc -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:29:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Sadly you two are missing the point. Being dominant means never having to admit your wrong...:)

Jeff

"Certified always Right"


Hmmm... I want references for that claim[:D]
the.dark.




Machts -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:30:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Machts

And be prepared to have spoken with past partners-to be able to offer them.

Just because the two above posters don't like this-doesn't mean it has no value.

It's one of the way that skill is known to be factual.  That people HAVE seen and experienced a Top at play.



Oh yes - all references shown will be glowing - ohhhhhh - and ... and... and don't forget to ask for references from the past partners who didn't have such a great time as well.  I am sure those reference will be as readily available.  Must NOT forget them.[8|]
But no one ever offers those up hey? 
 
Did I say I didn't like it?  No.  I believe it's pointless to use as the 'only' option.  It's a great way to deny self responsibility.
 
the.dark.

 
I did say they "asked around"
 
which means they never relied on any one refference. Or are you just out to discredit me irrationally-by ignoring salient points I've already offerred?




Jeffff -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:36:47 AM)

??????????  you doubt ME?????????.....I a shocked.and appalled

Jeff

"Registered Doubter"




RCdc -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:45:19 AM)

No, I didn't ignore your points -  but whether they ask around or not - are you going to willingly offer up the negative reference or not?
Seriously, you know as well as I (if you have been involved with munches/clubs etc) that if a person has a bad time and the dominant is usually well known - that their negative 'reference' wouldn't even make the table.  They probably wouldn't attend the munch/group again.  And even if a dominant is a kick ass bondage 'expert' with others - doesn't mean they could be for me(as an example).
 
I don't understand why people rely on communicating with other people only for 'references' when it's the person you are considering playing with you should be communicating with.
 
I am not trying to discredit you - I don't know you.  I am however, discussing an issue.  Experience and skill are a moot point if a person doesn't or can't communicate propely - or makes a second guess based purely on observation.  You are experienced - fine, I get that - but asking others for references for you, doesn't reinforce your position, the actual skill is in communicating yourself and listening as well.  And I don't see your points as salient if they are based on gaining second hand info and second guessing without clear one on one communication.
 
the.dark.




RCdc -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:46:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

??????????  you doubt ME?????????.....I a shocked.and appalled

Jeff

"Registered Doubter"


Just chalk it up to 'experience' - and now you can list it as a skill![;)]

the.dark.




missturbation -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 8:56:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hey Misst - Do we add 'paperwork fetish' to your list now?[:D]
 
the.dark.

 
Most certainly [:D]




sexyred1 -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 9:00:47 AM)

I like the quote about needing experience to develop a skill, but find the entire discussion to be a bit useless since it all boils down to semantics again.

I have met many who claimed experience and skill who had neither. I met a few with no experience who possessed the skills( and further developed them) necessary to take me places.

If I took everything that someone said about experience and skill at face value, I would never have experienced the skills of certain people.

That is why I never listen to the crowing about how many years experience a Dominant has or how many toys he owns. The two do not always connote skill.




Kana -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 9:10:19 AM)

My thoughts, humble as they may be.

There are many things in life that I would refer to as jobs, tasks that can be done. In this I am thinking along the lines of an assembler at a factory, something that is taught and then done by rote. There are also things in life that I will label crafts. Some of these are obvious, art, music, blacksmithing, but many other things can fall under this label as well. Baseball is an example, or writing, or sales, or teaching or a million one other things. Generally with crafts there is a certain learning curve involved but after a little bit of work most people can achieve a basic proficiency at the thing. Cooking works perfectly here, most people know the rudiments of cooking yet few are true chefs. The thing that distinguishes a craft is that it is something that has immense depths and nuances contained within. One can learn to hit a baseball fairly easily, but to learn and understand the game itself takes a lifetime. Through continuous application and practice one can hone their  “expertise” (oh that word is going to get me in trouble here), but nobody can ever truly become completely accomplished in all the fields demanded by a craft. Hence there are no experts, but there are Master craftsmen.  

The master comment should give it away where I am heading with this, grins.  

So to my mind, I can possess some skill in BDSM, I can have some level of experience, I can even claim a certain level of expertise in say, beating a woman with a rubber chicken, But that is not to say I have become even adequate in many areas that fall under the wide umbrella called BDSM. 

In my mind this is an art form, the canvas is the body but the domain is the heart and mind. When on considers that each person contains a completely different set of variables and experiences I cannot say that I am either expert, experienced or skilled with that person until we build a history together. Human beings are too complex for me to claim otherwise. To take a submissive and make her mine involves artistry, nuance subtlety and patience. So to claim I have skill, hmmmm, I have some small knowledge of the craft of command, I have done this before. But to say I have mastered this craft would be a misnomer. I am at best a journeyman. 

Tangential question: Is claiming that I have experience really just a way of saying that I have made many mistakes in the past and for your sakes, hopefully learned from them? Experience does not predicate mastery  

So skill I have a little, experience a bit, expertise I do not claim, But I can make a slave sing.  

The story goes like this.In Florence once an owner of a granite quarry found a perfect piece of stone. He offered it to the leading artists of the day, asking that they transform this perfect rock into a work of art for the world to admire. Artist after artist came and viewed it and humbled turned away, Leonardo, Bottacelli, Donatello Rossellino, all examined the stone and said they were insufficient to work with such perfection. For 25 years the rock stood, waiting for the hands to carve it. In 1501 a 26 year old artist and stonemason was given the task of working on the block. It took him three years, and when he was done he unveiled it at the entrance to the Plazza Delvecchio.

The artist was Michelangleo and the statue was the David. At the unveiling An admirer asked Michelangelo how he sculpted the famous statue out of this stone that no one else would touch. How did he craft this masterpiece of form and beauty? Michelangelo’s offered this strikingly simple description: He first fixed his attention on the slab of raw marble. He studied it and then “chipped away all that wasn’t David.”

He freed the angel trapped within the stone

A precision of vision. He worked undistracted by all the extra material, peering through the unformed shape into what the figure it could become. Michelangelo knew David—his age, how he was positioned, the shape of his torso, and that beautiful curved left arm just below his chin. Through the amorphous mass of rock, a clear form sparkled in his imagination. The marble would only need chipping away. And so, gradually, tap by tap, David—or the Pièta, or Moses—emerged. The glory of Michelangelo’s sculpting was that he could see through the raw material, through all the chipping away, to its ultimate destiny. He created these beautiful forms through what he removed, through what he negated.  

That’s mastery. I am just a man who strives to learn. The details, the titles, the definitions mean little to me. The doing is all.




IrishMist -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 10:16:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Machts

It's actually extremely common in my community for women to ask for refferences. But it's not as if they rely on that alone-they often only play in the club on a first date. Still, they do ask, and they do it for a reason. I would advise people to consider that as well. And be prepared to have spoken with past partners-to be able to offer them.

Just because the two above posters don't like this-doesn't mean it has no value.

It's one of the way that skill is known to be factual.  That people HAVE seen and experienced a Top at play.


I find it very sad that you would make such a statement; I truly do. Sad because it shows that a person would rather take a piece of paper as truth over the instinct to trust themselves. And sad that so many ( the community as you call it ) endorse such nonsense.

I can go to any community play party, watch someone play, ask around about the people who I watched, gather every reference that is available...and it still would tell me NOTHING about how those two people interacted with each other. In addition, just watching would tell me nothing also.

How others interact within a scene with OTHERS gives me no information on how they will interact with ME.

Only taking time to get to know someone, learning a bit about them and how they act ( first hand experience here ) is the only thing that is going to say whether or not the person who canes or whips me is ethical and trustworthy.

You like you way of doing things, that is fine. Don't expect that it's going to be the only way that things are done; and don't get on a high horse when you way is challenged. I have been on both ends; I have seen first hand how Almost ALL ways of doing things can be beneficial or determential...neither is better than the other.





IrishMist -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 10:18:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Sadly you two are missing the point. Being dominant means never having to admit your wrong...:)

Jeff

"Certified always Right"

No, not missing any points anywhere. I saw each and every one of them clearly.




Jeffff -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 10:24:26 AM)

Grins......you usualy do


Jeff




stella41b -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 10:46:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Machts

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

LOL don't try and patronize me...I don't believe in references; I don't believe in 'demanding that you prove you can cane me'....

I rely simply on getting to know a person...best defense in the world

Either way...it does not matter...because this thread is not about references and proving whether or not someone is proficient...it's simply about two different words and how they can be used to alleviate some confusion.


But asking for some sure takes the wind out of the bullshitters.[;)]


I disagree here. It's like driving. Having a driving licence doesn't make you a good driver. Nor does having driving experience.

The past has no bearing on the present. I'm both a very experienced and skilled submissive, and have the references, but this has never guaranteed that I can serve someone. There have been mistakes and misunderstandings.

Why rely on the opinions of other people to make your own decisions? Isn't that a cop out?

The only way you'll find out if someone is a good driver is by getting in the car. The only way you'll find out how 'skilled' a submissive is is by giving them a chance and getting to know them.

Nothing shuts a bullshitter up faster than giving them the chance to put their words into actions.




Stephann -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 11:03:57 AM)

Hi stella,

It's a lovely sentiment, but I don't think very practical.  It's why if I owned a trucking company, I would do my best to only hire drivers who are at least in their mid twenties so that they have proven experience to drive my vehicles.  There's a reason employers ask you for references; if you can't produce any, why should they feel they can just take your word for it?

Obviously, relationships ended for one reason or another; I don't expect someone's references to be steller, but neither do I feel comfortable involving myself with a submissive who has zero friends (or is afraid to explain why she has no friends.)  Ultimately, I'm still going to make that decision for myself; I don't expect her to get involved with me, without having an idea of who I am, too though.

Regards,

Stephan




stella41b -> RE: Experienced vs. Skilled (11/29/2007 11:20:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Machts

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Machts


Anyone I ever played with asked around about me. it's one of the good things about being known in a community. If you damage bottoms-it's one of the bad things.


And who are these 'bottoms' and how does one know they are telling the truth? Who are these 'bottoms' and do they have the same pain thresh hold as me? Same anything? How do I know that you're not just best friends with this person? Just because you can handle a puppy, doesn't mean you might be able to handle a full on bitch.
References are as valuable as the paper they are written on.

the.dark.
(.woof.woof.)


Like it or no, one develops a reputation in a community. It can be good or bad. And while it's sometimes tarnished by the standard back biting and gossip we see here- it's all that most new subs have to go on,beyond spending time with a Top. Which can be extremely dangerous in the wrong situations.

As far as levels of play go-I simply prefer to do things my way. Maximum results for minimum damage, I really don't care what the rest of you think about what I consider to be skill. I see damaging a toy needlessly as incompetent. And yes, that IS "my way"

Do whatever you want, your way.


Okay, so let me ask you the following... When you want to go see a movie, do you go and 'ask around'? Do you 'ask around' when you want to listen to some music?

How about books? Do you 'ask around' before you pick up a book?

This is the same thing, the exact same thing. I could start a thread asking who is the greatest English language female singer of all time and it would run for pages. Same too if I asked who is the greatest American actor of all time.

Still not sure it's the same?

Okay. So you tell me who's the best male Dominant here on Collarme? Who's the best Domme? The best female submissive? Of course, you don't know. So why don't you go and 'ask around'?

So okay, it's your way, and you don't care about what I think or others think as we all have our own way.

But this much I will tell you. If I were like you more concerned over the possible damage to a toy or a piece of equipment more and value that more than the potential play partner I'd quit BDSM tomorrow and stop meeting people.

If I felt I needed the opinions of other people to make my own decisions and form my own relationships with play partners I would also quit.

BDSM is about giving and sharing, not about taking or making use of. It's no different from any other relationship. It's about taking on the responsibility for your own decisions, instincts and feelings. BDSM is about giving and sharing, therefore it's about giving people chances and taking risks. And the truth is, as far as I'm concerned, unless you are prepared to do that you have no place in the community and no right to call yourself either a skilled Dominant or a skilled submissive.

But as you say most women ask for references. Yes. And I'll explain why. A lot of Dommes aren't actually Dommes, but women pretending to be Dommes, out for what they can get, whether it's sexual gratification, extra housekeeping, or something else. They call themselves a Domme and that is maybe how they are seen and perceived, but they are abusing both that position and their power. They are the ones who regard submissives as stupid, incompetent, naive, there to be exploited and used. You see it all the time on this site. I saw a journal entry when I logged in from a Domme looking for a 'slave' to design a website just to please her. No offer of anything in return.

They are no better than the HNG's and other 'game players' and idiots which also infiltrate this site. This is where you get the backbiting and bitching in the community.

Your reputation in this community is not just about you, but it's also about the people you know and who you associate with. The references are meaningless and all you are doing by asking around is poking your nose into the past relationships of other people.

Several people have challenged what you wrote and you have argued back. I respect that you have your own way. Fine. I'm not writing this to challenge you or argue with you. I just want to teach you.

Whether you learn from what I right depends on you. Your choice.

But consider that quite often in BDSM you rarely get the partner you want, but the one you need and deserve.

Think about it.




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