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RE: Offering a Collar - 11/29/2007 3:14:06 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Stephann, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
The thoughts I do have is, that whom ever seeks that 'next level' of commitment to which a collar represents a 'level' and or symbol of a level; the person seeking the commitment from the other, regardless if Dominant or submissive, Master/Mistress or slave -- must have the ability to 'consider.' 
 
With any type of word used in vanilla or in BDSM it is subjected to the reasoning of the individuals involved.  It can be a tug of war when it comes to the 'language' and the real importance is not the 'language' but the understanding in its summary as to what is really the intent and the consequences of the action.
 
I feel that it is most unfair for individuals to shelf the term, "under consideration" because it is not politically correct but, what is important is not to rush into a very important life changing choice.  I feel, if we can use the term 'considering' or 'consideration' in other aspects of our (in general) lives, such as 'considering buying a new cane or flogger' and 'considering buying this or that--the intention of the term is more important to me.  I do want a slave of mine to really consider what they are about to do and I must have the same right.  I find, that there will be times when thoughtful consideration can be made and to part company or continue on as one of the two of us (in general terms) are not ready at that moment.  This is not a signal that the relationship will terminate or proceed.  Just not at that moment when all things are considered.
 
I shall not agree with the practices, of using the term, "Under Consideration," as an extended leash in which the other is dragged along in limbo with no real solid progress on the relationship or used as a definate 'maybe.'  I find it sad, that 'under consideration' is use increasingly so, as to hold onto someone until they find someone better.  I find this behavior unkind, as its not really an honest way to nurture a trusting and honorable relationship.  I rather be single and without than to hold a person in an indefinate 'under consideration' mode.  For me, I see it as having the benefits without the labor and or the investment.
 
I also consider myself old fashioned.  I do not chase slaves about and offer them a collar.  I came up in a system where the slaves had to pursue, court and make the moves into the relationship process.  This way, the intimidation excuse of "..he was a Master and offered a collar and I was afraid to refuse and or afraid it wouldn't be offered again."  I also feel, that it is wonderful to feel as wanted as a Master as much as a Master may want the slave.  Growth, communication and consideration for one another; I feel will come to what ever final summary of the journey will be.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Offering a Collar - 11/29/2007 3:20:01 PM   
charlotte12


Posts: 471
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Stephann,
You would think that would be an easy question to answer; however the only things that come to mind really have nothing to do with the relationship. The inside joke answer about 'why' we got married is; one day renting a car in Seattle I was charged an extra $25 to add beth as a driver and I wanted to avoid that in the future. I think all of the "changes" are along those pragmatic lines such as tax, estates, and such. The only one very important to both of us was the fact that as a spouse we had the right to make medical decisions for the other. Now that addresses something we hope isn't triggered for a very long time, but then all our plans are based upon the long term.

Since I'm at the office I don't know if beth has read this yet. Maybe she can think of some ways our relationship has changed, but I can't think of one at the moment.

Yet, the marriage ceremony did have a meaning and significance. Truth be told I was a blubbering idiot. 'BeachMystress' would vouch for that. It was nearly impossible to speak the words I'd written regarding beth and what I feel for her. she was MUCH smarter, expecting herself to be too emotional to attempt any long dissertation. Me on the other hand, drawing from the experience performing before a live audience on stage, wanted to be expressive and wrote out long verses. It was expressive all right - a 50 year old man in a tux crying between every word IS expressive. Considering there wasn't a dry eye in the house, I guess it was quite a 'performance'; except I wasn't performing.

I'd say the marriage and the wedding didn't change the relationship. It was, for me the culmination of a fantasy I never thought I would be able to experience in life. I sure as hell didn't expect to achieve it coming to live here from NYC after 9/11. In beth, I found and have a woman who compliments me perfectly. The labels Master/slave notwithstanding she defines my happiness and is my life. That didn't change the day we married. It only became "official" to everyone else.


You almost made me cry while reading that (and laugh a little because i imagine i would be like you.....thinking i could write the perfect expression and it coming out a blubbering, beautiful mess.)

I am truly so happy for the joy you two seem to have found with eachother.

charlotte

_____________________________

Stephan's slaveling

"I'm not superior, I'm just more important." Master (Stephann)

"When you are your freest self, who are you?" Jack Rinella

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Offering a Collar - 11/29/2007 5:32:48 PM   
Dari


Posts: 192
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		I don't ask or offer a collar either, Stephan.  We discuss it, and I express my feelings on the nature of a collar, and the symbolism and meaning.  And I listen to their opinions as well, and if we can agree on a meaning, then a collar becomes a possible future outcome.  And then I make it very clear that if they're interested in working toward a collar, then I will consider them - and their responsibility will be to prove to me that they have a unique and long-term place in my life.  Once they have earned the right to beg for a collar, then I would tell them they may beg for a collar if and when they're ready.  At that point, I have no intention of not collaring them, unless they choose not to beg a collar.

I prefer to get to a point where I'm ready to accept them on a long-term basis.  When I am, then it needs to be their choice, because I just don't do the "sub behind closed doors, equals everywhere else" thing.  I'm either the Domme, or we're just friends.  And because choosing to look to me as the Domme means you're giving up a lot of choice, I require that it be an actual choice.  If you don't have the courage to choose to serve me, then you don't deserve to wear my collar.

Moving on to the actual act of "begging" a collar.  Every healthy relationship (even vanilla ones) develop their own rituals that forge a bond between them.  A relationship that lasts for years isn't made up of one moment where each person decides "yes, this is it for me."  It's made of a thousand little secrets, private communications that whisper of moments shared that no one else will ever understand.  That phrase that he only uses when he's on his knees, but that sounds so innocuous when he says it in the middle of a restaurant with a group of vanilla friends.  Those looks that bring laughter, without anything being said.  And of course the really important moments that mark the milestones that really mean something.

It seems that what you've established for you and charlotte is a lovely ritual, full of meaning for you both.  Whatever words you use to describe it, it's still one of those moments that sticks.  Which is what really matters, isn't it?

(in reply to charlotte12)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Offering a Collar - 11/29/2007 5:48:28 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

I put more importance on marriage to be honest with you. To me THAT is a commitment... collars mean nothing in comparison to me.

LOL this kind of made me laugh. I am the exact opposite. I place more significance on the collar than I do a wedding ring...of course, the one time I was married, he had to give me an ultimatium...I just have never placed much emphasis on marriage; maybe it's because growing up, most of those who I knew who were married never took the vows very seriously.

/shrug

Who knows lol


My parents were married until death do them part.

Let me put it this way, it is not that a collar is meaningless to me, it does have meaning, kinda like a wedding ring. I am his whether I wear a collar or not




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Offering a Collar - 11/29/2007 6:23:38 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Everyone has to agree and be an active participant in a relationship in order for it to work in the long term.

HOW you go about that is just your personal preference.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Offering a Collar - 11/29/2007 6:27:10 PM   
CelticPrince


Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline 		Stephann,

Well I agree that it is indeed a much more serious consideration than most here do, but collars can offer a sense of symbolic belonging for those that desire it.

CO

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Offering a Collar - 11/29/2007 7:24:57 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hello Stephann
 
In essence, I can see your thought and agree.  My only other thought though is that if it came to the point where collaring becomes a possibility, then that possibility would have been discussed as to whether it was something expected in the relationship at some point, so a dominant collaring another means that the s-type would be at the point to not refuse it anyway.(If that makes any sense?)
 
Peace
the.dark.

 
It seems silly and maybe even cruel to allow a Submissive/Slave to ask/beg for a collar when the Dominant/Master as no expection to say yes.  I believe that it important to understand between the two of them that such a commitment is a possibility to be considered by them both. 
 
I am more responsive to the submissive/slave making the offer of self and expressing a desire be owned by me.  But, I don't want them to be begging in a manner that I perceive as weak and desperate.  I want the request and offer to be one from a position of strength that is motivated internally.  It's a personal preference and not a universally best way.  For some, they would find this approach completely unacceptable. 

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 11/29/2007 7:25:36 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Offering a Collar - 11/29/2007 7:57:49 PM   
Solinear


Posts: 283
Joined: 1/8/2007
Status: offline 		The whole consentual nonconsent is an interesting situation where something that has very nearly never been volountary is *always* volountary.  Even if it's something that someone would never do (relinquish their consentual nonconsent), they still have the ability and right, except in extreme and illegal situations.

So then the situation becomes one where you must decide whether, once begged (or offering to not require consent), does the master/mistress then decide when to 'purchase' what has been offered up to them?  Alternatively, the slavery might be 'up for sale' in general and the master simply needs to offer to purchase it with a collar.

I guess for me it would be dependent upon the situation and the type of slavery I was looking for.  In a situation where my wife (or someone that I have an already existing emotional bond) were to want to be my slave, I would require the begging, I would never offer a collar.  For those who I meet who are specifically looking for a collar and I'm not trying to make them another mate, but simply a slave, a piece of property, then I would see nothing inappropriate in deciding after a certain period of time that they were a slave that I would not see a problem with owning and offering them the purchase price for... well, them.  They are already up for sale, they are simply determining whether they want to sell to you, just as much as you are determining whether you want to purchase.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Offering a Collar - 11/30/2007 2:57:19 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I lost the right to refuse an order and maintain the relationship long before he ever put his collar on me.  Wearing his collar was not the defining point of transfering authority.  The defining point was when he asked if I knew what I wanted and I said "I wish to be yours".  By that point, we both knew what each other wanted through our many conversations and this was just a formal verbal acknowledgment.

Allowing me to wear his collar was his decision alone.  I did not ask him and he did not ask me.  When he decided we were ready, he made the collar and put it on.  To refuse to wear it would end the relationship.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Offering a Collar - 11/30/2007 5:11:04 AM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline 		~fast reply~

when Daddy and i were talking, i asked his opinion on collaring.  why?  because its signifigant to me, and i would not be happy being in a committed relationship with a dominant, if i were not able to have a token to see and touch and hold to when i was feeling insecure.  *especially* since its not feasable for us to be together always, or even frequently.

after we had that conversation, i let it lie.  he decided when he wished to present me with a collar, and we found one that we both liked.    so  i suppose you could said that both i begged the collar (in saying that it was something i wished) and he offered it (in deciding when/if to give one).

kitten

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Offering a Collar - 12/1/2007 9:23:51 AM   
rmanrr


Posts: 358
Joined: 7/25/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings
Not to any individual poster...just general musing.
Having read most of the responses...I happen to very much agree with LuckyAlbatross...what you make in your dynamic/relationship works for the two (or more) of the people in it. My woman is moving across the country as I write this...holed up because of a freakish blizzard about 2/3 of the way here. She is driving here across the country. We made a commitment to each other months ago. Fulfilling that commitment is both of our goals. Will it at some point mean a collar? Possibly. The fact that she is travelling some 3400 miles to get here in winter speaks so very much more than a collar does. She will be marked upon arrival (shortly after), and we have discussed having her branded upon a 1 year and 1 day anniversary. A tad more lasting than a collar. As for her begging or Me offering...I am thinking that the time for a collar if there is to be one, will be known by the both of us. It may just come naturally or not at all. I am hers, she is mine....anything and I mean anything else is secondary to that knowledge.


_____________________________

Be Well, Be Careful

Jarl Rmanrr

"the road untravelled is the loneliest." Me
Courage...the ability to overcome obstacles during the course.
"to be insane is to be original!"...Me

(in reply to adoracat)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Offering a Collar - 12/1/2007 1:37:13 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		My most sincere congratulations to you and yours, Rmanrr.

You brought up an interesting point that I didn't really mention.  Something that charlotte and I have discussed, is her desire to be a slave, as well as my slave.  For us, a brand will represent something almost straight out of Gor; she would be marked as a slave, permanently.  Like you, that won't take place for at least a year, to give us (well, her) time to adjust and ensure that this is a direction she truly wishes to take her life in.

Regards,

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to rmanrr)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Offering a Collar - 12/1/2007 4:51:32 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Stephann i think there is a difference between collaring a slave vs collaring a submissive. A slave, once she agrees to become owned by someone, after being collared has very little control left over her life (as i see slavery) so i agree with you that the slave should be the one to beg a collar from a Master.

On the other hand in a D/s relationship a submissive negotiates with the Dom and knows exactly what to expect when entering a relationship with that dominant, therefore i think a submissive can be asked to accept a collar or beg one herself. Just my take on it.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 12/1/2007 4:52:40 PM >

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(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Offering a Collar - 12/1/2007 5:35:53 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Well I don't go with the buying and selling aspect, but I did agree with part of what Solinear wrote. When my vanilla marriage broke for the 2nd time and I was going to move on to explore bdsm, My "hubby" wanted instead to become My sub and try to save the day (didn't work but it was worth a try!). he really had to beg Me, not for a collar, but for Me to contemplate that idea and take him back at all under the new arrangement. I needed convincing that he knew what he was getting into, what it would entail (including My playing with other subs, wanting to find a Master for my sub side etc) before I agreed to take him on. he had surprised Me initially when I came home to find him naked and kneeling on the floor, but it was 3 solid hours of talk and a fair bit more begging before I agreed.

I've not needed to be begged by other subs ... it's more a matter of an initial approach from either side and general 2-way discussion. I don't think I'd want to be "begged" for a collar, generally I don't like hearing begging of any kind! It makes Me feel uncomfortable. However, a sub would be welcome to ask "When do You think i might be ready for Your collar Ma'am? i would love to be Yours. Am i progressing well enough in my training? Is there anything i need to improve?"

i seem to recall violet saying similar to Master when i felt a bit "itchy" to be His and marked as His with His collar. But the decision of whether i would be His and when that would occur was entirely His. He chose to commemorate the date He arrived in Perth 2 years earlier to live 24/7 with me. So i had to be itchy for about another 6 months LOL ... during which time He and i designed O/our choice of jewellery (an identity bracelet for all sorts of practical reasons) and had it made by a jeweller. W/we also prepared a contract and O/our vows ... so it was very special when it happened.

I do understand though that everyone has a different perspective on this, and I can understand Stephann and those that agree they want the sub to initiate (so there is no sense of coercion) while also understanding those who say it's up to the Dominant to "offer" so there is no sense of the sub nagging their way into it! Guess it has to be clear what method You prefer as the Dominant!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]


_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Offering a Collar - 12/1/2007 5:36:34 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		So, if you will not offer a collar and feel that it's necessary for a woman to beg for your collar, what happens if and when the relationship ends?  Would you require her to beg to be released from your collar?  Would you never consider taking your collar back or asking for it back?
 
Just curious as to whether you have any thoughts on this.  Of course, no one wants to think about the possibility of their relationship ending but, they sometimes do and how that situation is handled is, in my view, just as important as to how the beginning of a relationship is handled?
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
This isn't a judgment on those who do, but I don't, and never intend to 'offer a collar.'

I do illustrate that if there's to be a collaring, it comes at the explicit request of my partner; that (for me) being collared represents surrendering the right to say 'no.'  For me, begging of a collar represents a clear and tacit consent to the relationship we are engaging in.  Thus, I cannot imagine 'offering' such a choice.  If it isn't something she doesn't feel compelled to literally beg for, I believe that it shouldn't be given.

Thoughts?

Stephan

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Offering a Collar - 12/1/2007 5:43:50 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Good question joy ... for Me, I believe either party can end the relationship and both should do so respectfully. The sub/slave can request to be released, the Dominant can also choose to release the sub/slave. I think either should be willing to voice their reasons respectfully so that both sides understand what else is being sought ... and ideally this should only happen after the relationship has already been the subject of discussion and strategies tried to resolve differences. Because while power may have been transferred from one to the other, this is still a relationship between 2 people and either must be able to call it quits when that becomes necessary!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Offering a Collar - 12/1/2007 7:49:15 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline 		I think I expressed my feelings about this best in a past thread.  Here is a link to it:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1120793/mpage_1/key_beg/tm.htm#1121049

Overall, some wonderful responses all the way 'round on the above thread.  Great food for thought.........

luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 12/1/2007 7:51:55 PM >

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(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 57
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