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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/18/2007 4:18:43 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Oh boy, Real's been put on moderation ? What's next, maybe me.

I will say that Hitler ordered the killing of some Jews. But out of the one million in Germany, the two million in Poland and the three million in France, apparently he killed them all. But somehow he missed a few million because they showed up here.

Even though FDR refused them entry, that was a PR ploy. Not for him though.

You see a little known FACT is that Hitler wanted rid of the Jews, yes, but he had no desire to kill them, he just wanted them to leave. Nobody would take them. If you think I am kidding or lying, I would suggest further research.

And I would say to research something called "krystalnacht". That was done by the people, not the government. Why ?

We can't really know everything is fact, in fact we don't even know if the universe existed before our birth if you get right down to it, but indications are there. Some have to bring a wheelbarrel full of money to buy a postage stamp, others have jewelry, gold teeth and Swiss bank accounts. Do the math. Some take, others get taken from.

Jews have never been stupid, they saw the handwriting on the wall, a strong nationalist movement was happening and they knew to get out, but they had nowhere to go. When the Nazi war machine came, they knew to get going. But they couldn't get in, that is unless they develoed the nuclear fission bomb or something. If they did that the US wanted them, would even go get their families from some remote spot in Europe, to curry their loyalty.

This game was played with the utmost finesse. I mean yes, Jews got screwed, some of them had it coming, others did not. But that was all part of the plan, and that is why we have holocaust laws. They tried to pass that shit here, lookup HR4230, and look at who sponsored it. Very telling.

But as Farrakan put it, the big Jew let the little Jew burn. And that is the truth. They had enough power to change the course of world events, but chose not to, and they allowed what they call their "lesser bretheren" suffer the consequences.

But this is typical throughout history with just about all races. It is a fact of life, a constant. When leadership is regarded as a form of special liberty and power, rather than the extreme responsibility that it really is, these things happen. And brother do they happen.

As I said before, no wonder aliens don't come here. Would you ?

If you were of a species that has grown beyond all that, what fucking reason would you have to come here ? I mean really. Think about it, Man's inhumanity to Man has not only not subsided, it has increased.

The truth is out there, truth that is not enforced by the barrell of a gun. Truth that is not enforced by silencing or jailing those who speak it, or question the official version. It is called "revisionist" history, and as far as I can see there is only one place in the world you can practice it, and that is the sole reason I stay here. In any other matters this is nothing even remotely similar to a free country, but they did not get HR4230 through, and other measures of the like routinely fail, much to the dismay of AIPAC.

Perhaps our politicians do have a slight glimmer of integrity, as they stuff the money into their pockets. No way, they just want to get reelected. What was I thinking.

Now I sit back and let the chips fall. Did I go too far ? I guess we shall see a bit later.

T

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/18/2007 4:46:44 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		How some people can deny that the holocaust in Europe ever happened is beyond me.

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/18/2007 5:06:31 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

How some people can deny that the holocaust in Europe ever happened is beyond me.



Well people deny that a holocaust is happening in iraq right now whats so hard to believe they deny it in ww2?

Best recollection is that people dont deny the holocaust as such they simply disagree with the numbers.   Seems many people think the numbers have been distorted somehow.




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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/18/2007 5:48:54 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Sarcasm, insult... call it what you wish, your post dripped with it... Apparently, you feel that my referring to Europe as 'civilised continent' implies I believe that America isn't: that's your paranoia speaking, mate. As for using the word 'American'... it's widely used as an adjective for the United States (of A).

Termin8tor's insane rhetoric illustrates perfectly WHY it is folly to tolerate holocaust denial. It's his kind of thinking that led to the holocaust in the first place.

A bon entendeur, salut.



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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/18/2007 6:21:30 PM   
lazarus1983


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/25/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Well, since Austria gave us Hitler, I think it's only fair and just that they should come down like a ton of bricks on those who deny that the holocaust ever happened.

I have to ask: why would anyone wish to deny the holocaust  ? Ah, yes... because it serves their political interests...

Neo-nazis, anyone?


I don't deny the Holocaust at all, and I think that those people are absolute loons.  But I believe in free speech.  No one is really, honestly being hurt by someone who disbelieves the Holocaust happens.  There are a great deal of historical events and science that people deny and refuse to accept.  The moon landing comes to mind.  I don't see Neil Armstrong suing these lunatics for libel.  There are people that still believe the earth is flat, but there is no law needed to make them change their ways.  The court of public opinion takes care of all of these people.  They are laughed at and shunned from any real discussions.  Let them stand around waving their fists and shouting their drivel from every mountain top.  They only become dangerous when you force them to discuss their views underground away from public scrutiny.


Agreed completely. It's when we seek out and attack and attempt to drive out these loonies that they gain credibility. They get to become martyrs, innocent victims of the oppressive Big Brother as it seeks to censor ideas!

Not to mention that this whole instance, when boiled down, is government censorship, nothing more, nothing less. Regardless of whether or not we agree with what they're saying, we have to tolerate it. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I'm sure the Austrian government has good intentions in locking up this absurd Holocaust denier. But what happens when that censorship starts leaking out to other venues?

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/18/2007 6:48:15 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

Sarcasm, insult... call it what you wish, your post dripped with it... Apparently, you feel that my referring to Europe as 'civilised continent' implies I believe that America isn't: that's your paranoia speaking, mate. As for using the word 'American'... it's widely used as an adjective for the United States (of A).

Termin8tor's insane rhetoric illustrates perfectly WHY it is folly to tolerate holocaust denial. It's his kind of thinking that led to the holocaust in the first place.

A bon entendeur, salut.


There is a difference between sarcasm and insult.  You were saying that America isn't civilized.  That is obvious when you make a comment about American culture, then say, "...in Europe (a civilized continent all in all.), people choose not to tolerate intolerance.", that you are implying a lack of civility here.  You didn't say "American" by the way, you said "America", then you referered to the continent of Europe.  America is often used for the U.S., but it is incorrect.  Since you are so big on tolerance and political correctness, you may want to note that tends to piss off our neighbors to the south.  America takes up most of the Western Hemisphere.     

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 1:55:30 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		My insane rhetoric, I will have to remember that.

T

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 2:48:38 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I think, that even if it were possible to prove that people (not just Jews, but Gypsies, homosexuals, dissidents etc) were not actively killed in the concentration camps, it would yet remain the case that millions did die from whatever causes - and that their deaths were in any case directly attributable to nazi policies.

So either way, the denial of active execution is a little pointless all in all - the result remains the same, and the result cannot be denied even if the means might be.

E

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 4:11:57 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Just to make what I suppose may well be considered a controversial post but which as far as I know is true; no documentation has ever been found explicitly associating Hitler with the holocaust as it actually occured.

I believe it is thought to have been finally decided to implement mass murder at the Wansee conference.
Himmler Heydrich Eichmann amongst others were present.

adding: I think holocaust denial should be subject to prosecution if it is done in a triumphalist or defensive way. ie those "sickos" who appear to be not unhappy about it or who seek to "sort of" defend it by pointing to atrocities elsewhere.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/19/2007 5:03:32 AM >

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 11:35:44 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		It's interesting that you are so adamant about fighting for the geographical integrity of the word 'American'. How do you reconcile that with your disinterest in defending the memory of those that fell victims to the Shoah? It seems to me like your priorities are wrong. I'm glad the man in question will stew in jail (in relative comfort, let's remember). Maybe that'll give time to reflect on the reasons for his actions.

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 11:42:17 AM   
ctsub2003


Posts: 11
Joined: 7/17/2006
Status: offline 		I have always believed in supplying historical evidence to counter ignorant beliefs, not eliminating free speech. As repugnant as it may seem, these lunatics do have a right to deny/disbelieve the existence of the Holocaust. It's easy to claim "free speech" when someone is espousing views we all believe in, much more difficult when their beliefs are disgusting. However, when a society starts to censor which ideas can and can't be freely exchanged, it is on pretty shaky moral ground, wouldn't you all say?

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 12:07:05 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Yes, in the absolute, these are all very noble ideas. I believe in freedom of thought and freedom of speech.

What does a state do, however, in the light of the Shoah? It is thanks to free speech that Hitler rose to power. Free speech DOES make a society vulnerable to those whose agenda it is to destroy it. That is why some European governments (and Israel) have passed laws that make 'holocaust denial' a crime - Germany and Austria, the countries which gave rise to Nazism, among them. Even Switzerland, one of the most populist democracies in the world, has made it illegal to propagate these kind of ideas.

I agree that it's a complex issue. I believe, however, that making specific provisions with the aim to prevent these crimes from occuring again is wise, safe, and just. Justice resides in respect: and allowing Shoah deniers from using the forums of democracy to spread their shit is bordering on carelessness.

Free speech doesn't mean abuse, after all. And there are laws against slander.

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 1:04:20 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I think there is a clear difference between denying the holocaust and inciting people to racial hatred. Denying something happened doesnt warrant being sent to prison. Inciting violence does.

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 1:45:24 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I will say that Hitler ordered the killing of some Jews.



You're entitled to do so, but historians argue over whether it was all or nothing; some say he was party to the Final Solution document, others say he wasn't - I'm yet to hear of one saying "he ordered the killing of some Jews".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But out of the one million in Germany, the two million in Poland and the three million in France, apparently he killed them all.



Your figures are out on a few fronts a) there weren't six million Jews living in Europe at that time b) France did not house 50% of the European Jewish population. Maybe you know this, and you're adopting a sarcastic tone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But somehow he missed a few million because they showed up here.



The Final Solution document was conceived in early 1942 or 1943, leaving more than enough time to escape Central and Eastern Europe, assuming people wanted to leave their homeland.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

You see a little known FACT is that Hitler wanted rid of the Jews, yes, but he had no desire to kill them, he just wanted them to leave. Nobody would take them. If you think I am kidding or lying, I would suggest further research.



Your fact is nothing like a fact.

Hitler was a supreme opportunist and pragmatist - if you're being kind - or a complete bumbling fool who made it up as he went along. One issue that was constant in his poltical ramblings, however, was racial war; he believed that the Germans were engaged in a battle for survival with the Slavs, and Jewish blood (his view) would act as a barrier to German supremacy. You could interpret this as get rid of them by killing them or by throwing them out of the country, but you have to remember that the Nazis' primary war aim was Lebenraum in the East, and it follows that this could only be achieved by exterminating Central and Eastern European Jews. You have to consider, too, that Hitler was fed a diet of German conservatism, and this suggested that Jews were at the forefront of commercialism and world decadence, so Hitler and the Nazis were going to get rid of the Jews at any price.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

And I would say to research something called "krystalnacht". That was done by the people, not the government. Why ?



Krystallnacht was orchestrated by the SA and SS; yes, civilians were involved, but, as per usual, it was driven by the Nazis propaganda and violence. I imagine that the followers of such actions were those dreaming of Gross Deutschland.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But as Farrakan put it, the big Jew let the little Jew burn. And that is the truth. They had enough power to change the course of world events, but chose not to, and they allowed what they call their "lesser bretheren" suffer the consequences.



So, the people who are said to have wanted to take over the world, actually had enough power to take over the world, according to you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Think about it, Man's inhumanity to Man has not only not subsided, it has increased.



Nonsense. Take yourself back 400 years and you'd be fighting a religious or dynastic war - your grandparents are German, have a read about what was going on in Germany 400 years ago. The very fact that our biggest concerns are whether or not someone is shoving a camera in our faces, should tell a story.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

The truth is out there, truth that is not enforced by the barrell of a gun. Truth that is not enforced by silencing or jailing those who speak it, or question the official version.

  

You're right, people should not be jailed for denying the holocaust, but, your post here is nothing to do with the truth; it appears to be a positive spin from one ultra conservative for the benefit of another.

The truth requires an individual who is open to reassesing his/her value system. Now, the truth concerns you, are you prepared to have your opinion on Hitler and the Nazis stood right on right on its head by opening your mind to the hundreds of thousands of historical accounts on this subject?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Now I sit back and let the chips fall. Did I go too far ? I guess we shall see a bit later.



Too far? False start.

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 1:52:02 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It is thanks to free speech that Hitler rose to power.



I'll admit to changing my mind on freedom of speech. I think the Americans have it right with regard to this subject - not perfect by any means, open to abuse? yes, but faith in reason is the best option, here. 

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 3:20:59 PM   
lazarus1983


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/25/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yes, in the absolute, these are all very noble ideas. I believe in freedom of thought and freedom of speech.

What does a state do, however, in the light of the Shoah? It is thanks to free speech that Hitler rose to power. Free speech DOES make a society vulnerable to those whose agenda it is to destroy it. That is why some European governments (and Israel) have passed laws that make 'holocaust denial' a crime - Germany and Austria, the countries which gave rise to Nazism, among them. Even Switzerland, one of the most populist democracies in the world, has made it illegal to propagate these kind of ideas.

I agree that it's a complex issue. I believe, however, that making specific provisions with the aim to prevent these crimes from occuring again is wise, safe, and just. Justice resides in respect: and allowing Shoah deniers from using the forums of democracy to spread their shit is bordering on carelessness.

Free speech doesn't mean abuse, after all. And there are laws against slander.


And what allowed Hitler so complete control over Germany, over the media outlets, over what the average citizen in Germany was allowed to know? Government censorship.

The average German citizen had no idea what was going in the world. They were under the belief that Germany had been attacked, not the other way around. The Nazi Party used government censorship to keep the population in the dark about a great many things.

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 3:48:18 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		First up, for the record:

The Holocaust happened. The physical evidence and the eye witness testimony is overwhelming.  To deny the Holocaust happened means one of four things:

1. You are severely delusional.

2. You’re a total dim-bulb.

3. You’re a fucking nazi bastard.

4. All of the above.

Quibbling over the numbers for any reason other than pure scholarship is silly. So what if the nazis didn’t murder six million Jews but only murdered three million? Does that... like... make it not so bad?

All that aside, freedom is meaningless if it doesn’t apply to everyone. The freedom to be a sane, intelligent, decent person is also the freedom to be a delusional, dim-bulb, nazi bastard. Causing physical harm should be prosecuted. Spouting off, even if it is complete and utter nonsense, should not.

This is not the same as libel (or slander). Libel targets specific individuals with real intent to cause harm (e.g. to ruin a reputation). If you apply the same to a group then anyone is free to claim libel against anyone else. Under that thinking cops should be able to sue gangsta rappers, teachers could sue anyone who criticizes the N.E.A., Italians could sue the producers of the Sopranos, and Republicans could sue liberals for all the nasty things they say and vice versa. But, of course, that is not what really happens. What really happens is that a few get rich by claiming to speak for the maligned group.

Whatever happened to good old fashioned ostracization? I say let the loons speak out loud and clear – it makes it easier to figure out who they are and thus avoid them.

Bottom line folks, if you can lock somebody up for their beliefs, on what basis do you assert your right not to be locked up for your beliefs?

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 8:47:40 PM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		Sorry but "krystal=nacht"  WAS government sponsored. Fire fighters throughout all regions of Germany were ORDERED NOT to respond to fires to property owned by Jew's and thats a fact.
3 Million jews in France?   Horse crap  most Jews came from Poland Ukraine and Russia during WW2.

FDR  DID NOT REFUSE  ENTRY TO JEWS
At first when the immigration and customs slowed down the approvals of visas and tried to stop the jewish immigrants from coming in to the US. As soon as FDR found out, he put his foot up the administrations ass and the process and visas were expidited.
Termyn8or your statments are full of holes and are not factual or accurate.


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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 9:17:40 PM   
b12345


Posts: 37
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Free speech at the cost of everything is a very american concept, I believe... In Europe (a civilised continent, all in all), people choose to not tolerate intolerance. It's a different philosophy.
.

To rephrase:
In Europe people choose not to tolerate those who choose not to tolerate...Nice. Seems like a lot of  intolerence over there.

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RE: Holocaust denier goes to prison in Austria - 12/19/2007 10:27:56 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Moloch, some Jews were let in ot the USA, and some were not.  A group wanted to come to Alaska, but were denied and eventually sent back to Germany.  To put in soley on FDR is not accurate though.

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