RE: Going dutch (Full Version)

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cinnia -> RE: Going dutch (12/6/2007 1:50:08 PM)


Cranky, cranky. 




CalifChick -> RE: Going dutch (12/6/2007 1:54:10 PM)

I interpreted it as it was the second time they went OUT together, not the second time they saw each other.  It does seem as if clarity is sorely lacking here.

Cali




ctrlaltdelete -> RE: Going dutch (12/6/2007 2:49:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kails
Then he tells me we are going to a pub. We get there, he gives me the amount for his drink and tells me to get it.
I purchase the drink, take it over to him, give him his 5 cents change, turn around, leave the pub and do the 1 1/2 hour walk home.
I did not have a choice about going to a pub, i give full control over to the Dom.


Based on what you are saying here and what you knew at the time, you acted prematurely and out of turn. If you have actually given over full control and he sent you to get a drink for him - how did you know that at this time he actually did not want you to have a drink? That he maybe expected you to ask permission to have a drink? It could have been a simple test and exercise in discipline.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kails
He states later that he does not believe paying for my drink is part of D/s.


Hind-sight is 20/20 and his comment has proven your decision absolutely right. A Dom not providing for a sub under his full control at the time - simply pityful in my eyes.

But my question is this - would we have read about this incident from you if he had told you afterwards "I did not want you to have a drink at that time and until after you had asked and received permission"?




beltainefaerie -> RE: Going dutch (12/6/2007 4:42:35 PM)

From what we know, she had cooked for him, then they went out at his direction, whether invitation or order is irrelevant to me at this moment.  In my opinion, it is the person who does the inviting that should pay on a date, whether D/s or no, unless a previous arrangement has been made.  In some relationships, the sub always pays, thereby providing for the Dom.  In other relatyionships, the Dom always pays, as part of taking care of the sub, being a provider/benefactor.  In other relationships, the male always pays, regardless of whether he is dom or sub.  Basically, finances can work any way at all, if it has been discussed.  If nothing has been decided, however, either party may graciously offer to pay and in a pub, perhaps pay for this round or that, rather than the whole night.  It makes sense to me that since she had repeatedly cooked for him, he could have offered to pay and likely should have, as they were out at his direction.  However, those that have asserted that her like for training or humiliation play indicates that what happened was ok, I think are off the mark.  Humiliating and inconsiderate are too totally different things. 
I do think that overall communication was lacking.  I like the suggestions people had for the sub asking whether she would need money or not. 

I enjoy when my subs treat me to things, but it is not an expectation I have.  Likewise, I am not expected to buy my Master things, but sometimes I do.  When I stay with him, he does all the cooking, because it is a love of his.  Sometimes I bring the ingredients and other times not.  When we go out, sometimes I pay and sometimes we split things.  We are both reasonably young and have families, so alternating or splitting things up makes sense for us.

While I understand the OPs desire to be treated with respect and her feeling that he should have bought her a drink, I disagree with the way she handled it.  I think it lacks basic curtesy to simply walk out on a date.  I think others have brought up good points as to why he may have not bought her a drink at the time.  He may have been cheap or he may have simply had other plans.  I think it would have been reasonable for her to ask, "May I also have a drink, Sir?" or somesuch.  If he did not plan to buy her one, but would allow her to have one, that could have come up then and they could have attempted a reasonable discussion about it, since finances had not come up as yet for them.  If he did not want her to have a drink, he could have explained that.  To simply walk out without explanation is, in my opinion, more rude than his lack of offereing a drink.  It is not just bad submissive behaviour, but poor social behaviour.  If you do not explain what made you angry, how can someone be expected to learn anything.  Whether their behaviour or communication would change in the future is up to them, but to fail to explain your motives at all just leaves the other person confused and makes you seem like the rude one.




cinnia -> RE: Going dutch (12/6/2007 4:44:23 PM)

Kails -
 
Regrets can come later if people react with heat and not enough reason. ( D/s turns up the burner!)
 
Did you think to ask him if you may have a drink?  Would you have found out what he had on his mind if you had stayed and bought and enjoyed your own drink? What did he value? You or the nickel? What did you value?
 
D/s is not easy. People seem to forget that. To someone
experienced, another's adaptation can be misenterpreted as pure insubordination, when in fact they are learning and growing and do make mistakes.  
 
 Patience and communication are vital. An infinite circle.
 
 

 




masterlink65 -> RE: Going dutch (12/7/2007 9:39:02 AM)

never kick a sleeping dogma




juliaoceania -> RE: Going dutch (12/7/2007 8:39:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

So basically you're a whore and he needs to pay for your time. Because ultimately that is what you're saying. He needs to shell out the dollars to take you somewhere. LOL. Ironic that you want him to take on an expense that you yourself won't take on. You say that you happily want him to take control but when he does it, you cry foul. And yes, telling you to pay for your own drinks is still controlling the situation. Maybe you should try dating a submissive man if you don't want to pay you own way?


Perhaps he shouldn't have eaten so much of her food if he never had the intention of reciprocating... who is the whore here? In my mind it is the person who has been bought, and since it wasn't her, but him, I suppose I think he is the food whore, topping for dinner...




breatheasone -> RE: Going dutch (12/7/2007 8:49:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterlink65

never kick a sleeping dogma

Perhaps we should let sleeping dogma's lie....




juliaoceania -> RE: Going dutch (12/7/2007 8:57:58 PM)

quote:

so a sub is just to walk out if something doesnt go the way a sub planned? over a drink?



In the beginning stages of getting to know someone, yes, they should walk out if they do not want to spend anymore time with the person.

quote:

so does this mean if the dom or master doesnt flush the toilet properly, the sub will just walk out? maybe i bought the post instead if the daily news, the sub should walk out without a word to its dom. any self respecting sub should be able to speak for itself in time of need. dont just turn your back. i wouldnt see that as an act of submission.



If in the beginning stages of a relationship I do not like a dom's toilet habits I am free to walk out.

quote:

doesnt sound like she was doing very much submitting to this dom of hers, other than her own selfishness of feeling the dom owed her for her making dinner. wrong for a sub or slave to expect anything owed other than its needs met, and a drink at the bar isnt a need, its a want. if i take my slave to a bar, it is my choice if slave has a drink, or wether slave stands in the corner.




She is a sub, not a slave, and even a slave has a right to decide who controls her... and until a slave or submissive decides to give up control over their lives... your view does not apply.

quote:

the sub is worthy of conversation, yes.... but to just walk away like that? would you really expect a dom to go wow, what an obedient sub,, after all,,,,, she did get me the drink i wanted.?!?



If I walk out on a date, it is doubtful I would ever accept another from the "dom" in question.. I have only walked out on one man in my life, and I never wanted to see him again after that, and I never did

Edited to add.. the man I walked out on was the reason I no longer date republicans or conservatives.. I was with this handsome marine in San Francisco... great room overlooking The City. Having a good time with him even though we would have these heated political debates... until he said "Hitler had his good points"... as soon as he said that, my mind closed, when we got back to our room I packed my bag, said goodbye, and left him with his jaw hanging open and departed for the train station.... I never looked back, regretted it, gave it a second thought... in my heart I had no pangs of "was I rude?"...

Some things cause me to be rude, unabashedly so, and someone being rude to me is one of those things.




masterlink65 -> RE: Going dutch (12/8/2007 12:00:53 PM)

quote:

Edited to add.. the man I walked out on was the reason I no longer date republicans or conservatives.. I was with this handsome marine in San Francisco... great room overlooking The City. Having a good time with him even though we would have these heated political debates... until he said "Hitler had his good points"... as soon as he said that, my mind closed, when we got back to our room I packed my bag, said goodbye, and left him with his jaw hanging open and departed for the train station.... I never looked back, regretted it, gave it a second thought... in my heart I had no pangs of "was I rude?"...


at least you said goodbye to him, and that is not considered rude. to just walk out and not say anything is pretty damn rude.

my views apply to my life. to say my views and opinions are wrong is pretty closed minded too. you can disagree with someones opinions, but can you really say they are wrong? if you can do that, then you are a better person than i am.




juliaoceania -> RE: Going dutch (12/8/2007 1:23:27 PM)

Quote where I said you were "wrong"? I said your view does not apply  in response to you stating that a submissive is wrong to have expectations... you are the one using the term "wrong", not me. I am submissive, and I am allowed to have expectations, now he may not meet those expectations, but I am allowed to them....lol




DesFIP -> RE: Going dutch (12/8/2007 1:38:36 PM)

Even if he expected her to beg for a drink, he should have outlined the expectations instead of expecting her to magically know it.

However, we do know he's a cheapskate from the fact that he gave her just enough to get his drink and nothing for a tip for the server. Remember, how a dom treats those who serve for a living is a good predicator of how he will treat those in service to him.

I have friends who wait tables for a living, and have had friends who are bartenders. They need those tips for income. Anybody going out knows the servers are paid not in salary, but in tips. The fact that he doesn't tip shows him in his true light. I think she should have given all of it to the server, not getting him a drink, before walking out.




juliaoceania -> RE: Going dutch (12/8/2007 1:57:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP



However, we do know he's a cheapskate from the fact that he gave her just enough to get his drink and nothing for a tip for the server. Remember, how a dom treats those who serve for a living is a good predicator of how he will treat those in service to him.




Amen to that one! It was something I paid much attention to when we met... it was one of the things that increased his odds of playing with me on the first meet[;)]




kyraofMists -> RE: Going dutch (12/8/2007 4:38:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
However, we do know he's a cheapskate from the fact that he gave her just enough to get his drink and nothing for a tip for the server. Remember, how a dom treats those who serve for a living is a good predicator of how he will treat those in service to him.


Amen to that one! It was something I paid much attention to when we met... it was one of the things that increased his odds of playing with me on the first meet[;)]


I guess you missed this part of her post:

quote:

No-one left a tip,  we are in Australia ... we dont do tips generally. Staff are paid reasonable wages.


Any country that I have visited outside of the US, does not expect their patrons to tip the wait staff.  The staff is paid by the employer for the job they are hired to do.  Expectations are not universal, so you are judging him cheap because of an expectation from your country, but it is not one that is expected in their country.

Knight's Kyra




juliaoceania -> RE: Going dutch (12/8/2007 5:43:15 PM)

Actually I did not miss that kyra, but I was just responding to celeste about how important it is to have a dom that is respectful of service people. I am very proud of having a man that treats everyone in a polite kind way... and it is one of the things I love most about him... the way he treats cashiers in stores, wait people, his neighbors, and everyone else he meets...

This thread is not a personal thing to me. I do not know what happened here.. it seems pretty confusing, but  I would not want to see him again if I were her because he is a terrible communicator about HIS expectations... whether he lives by society's or not.




DragonMstr -> RE: Going dutch (12/8/2007 6:30:29 PM)

Hello,
I have been a Master for mant years and this seems to me to just be the case of the man being a cheap. D/s or not, I am of the old school and I do not believe ina woman paying for a date. I can understand his way of thinking that the submissive or slave is to take care of her Dom or Master (I don't follow it, but I understand it), but this in my opinion is in bad taste.

Master Rick




Level -> RE: Going dutch (12/8/2007 7:45:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kails

I can see arguments happening on both sides for this one.

Ok, Im playing with this Dom. He's been fed several meals by me, out of my cupboard. Fine, cosy in fact. 

Then he tells me we are going to a pub. We get there, he gives me the amount for his drink and tells me to get it.

I purchase the drink, take it over to him, give him his 5 cents change, turn around, leave the pub and do the 1 1/2 hour walk home. He states later that he does not believe paying for my drink is part of D/s.

Im interested to see what others views are on this. My view is ... I did not have a choice about going to a pub, i give full control over to the Dom. But damned if Im gonna go dutch when we go out. Especially considering control is expected and happily given at all times, no matter where we are.

Opinions ????




Is this CollarMe, or Cosmo??




sexyred1 -> RE: Going dutch (12/8/2007 7:48:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: kails



Is this CollarMe, or Cosmo??


[sm=biggrin.gif]




Level -> RE: Going dutch (12/8/2007 7:50:17 PM)

[;)]




defiantbadgirl -> RE: Going dutch (12/8/2007 7:50:27 PM)

OP, this guy is a loser. He's probably looking for some woman to live off of. I stay away from such creeps.




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