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Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 3:32:41 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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I just have to ask this question; I have a pretty strong gut reaction to it and I am hoping to hear differing opinions.

This question is more in terms of male dominants and female submissives, but I am sure it could be flipped around a bit to include female dominants and male submissives...

Dominants do you do certain things with your submissive only because society expects it? An couple of examples are, open a door for your submissive or pay for dinner when you take her out. In general, society tends to expect the male to perform certain tasks and if not then you are not a gentleman or you are cheap or any other number of negative characterizations. If you do these things, it is because society or others expect it of you or it is because that is really what you want to do? If you don't do these things, it is because you don't want to do them or is it motivated out of a desire to do the opposite of what is generally expected?

Submissives, would you want your dominant to do these things and their only motivation is not to appear ungentlemanly or cheap to others?

Hopefully that is clear; I have to go to work and wont' get back to this until later.

Knight's Kyra

~ as smilezz says, Happy Friday everyone; it is my last day of work!!!

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

Post #: 1

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 4:19:02 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

Have a wonderful 'last day'... I am living vicariously through you at the moment Kyra! So excited for you all.

quote:

Submissives, would you want your dominant to do these things and their only motivation is not to appear ungentlemanly or cheap to others?

My answer is no because I would never choose to submit or be with someone whos motivations where based on the expectations of others.
My answer is also no because I submit to Darcy because this is one of the qualities I admired and still admire. He has never been a sheep. He has never done anything because of others ethical codes or morals. When he does something, he does it because he wants to.
My answer is also no because that would be his response.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 2

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 4:19:19 AM

MRandme

Posts: 661
Joined: 9/24/2007
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Intriguing question, that actually came up in a discussion between my Master and myself.

His instructions to me are, when in public (in a restaurant, etc) i am to walk a pace ahead of Him and allow Him to open doors for me (got annoyed with me once when i got the door myself, hee!) because He wants to look like a gent. However, we have plans to attend a large event together and He wanted me to understand that the protocols would be different there -- i'm to follow Him and open doors for Him.

The impressions society forms are based on such things. i certainly can understand the desire not to be seen negatively because people don't understand the dynamic. If He were to require me to use the event protocols while out to lunch, the server and other diners would not understand that i welcome the structure of them and that they make me feel secure, not mistreated.

g

_____________________________

And thus i conclude with a wish you go well,
Sweet be your dreams, may your happiness swell,
I'll leave you here, for my journey begins
i've gone to be with Him again...

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 3

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 4:29:22 AM

OldBastardly1

Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

I like this question. I know the answer....at least for me. lol.

I am a male Dom. I am a sadist as well. I am also an Old Bastard. I am many other things that also describe what I am and what I do. Above all else, I am a gentleman....usually. I am not sure if it makes me seem like less of a Dom, but I really don't care. I am secure enough in what I am and do, that others opinions really don't matter that much to me. Women are to be treated as ladies until the prove otherwise. In my upbringing, it is the polite thing to do and it is how I prefer to conduct myself. I think women are very special and should be treated as such, with no regard to their place in our lifestyle. They are to be protected as well.

Besides....they have boobs.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 4

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 4:32:47 AM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

In short no.

But then consider that I'm trangendered and in the secondary submissive female role with a dominant female who's free of gender roles. Placing any expectation of anyone above our own and those of immediate family goes against the fundamental principles of our relationship which is (1) being ourselves and (2) being totally open, honest and emotionally transparent with each other.

Both of us are part of society anyway and so it isn't even an issue.

_____________________________

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(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 5

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 4:35:24 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

Submissives, would you want your dominant to do these things and their only motivation is not to appear ungentlemanly or cheap to others?

No.
Sir and i get weird looks in public anyway, i don't think people can work out if He's my dad, my lover or what. There is no conciously decided interaction between us in public, it just flows. If i open the door for Him, then so be it and vice versa. I don't think Sir feels the need to excercise His authority over me in the public arena by having me open doors etc.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 6

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 4:37:49 AM

Owner4SexSlave

Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Oh, I just love the door protocal topic.   Went out on a date with somebody that walked 4-5 paces behind me, then would break their neck running to open the door for me. I had at first thought it was a vanilla date, but soon realized I had a full blown sub/slave on my hands.   Hell, she even got the car door for me as well.

Anyways, he's my rule of thumb on Doors. If it disrupts the flow of people entering and exiting a door, don't do it.   If it helps improve the flow of people in/out of the door do it.   Don't hang around the doorway any longer then needed, and to the point it inconvience people you are with, or disrupts the door protocals of other people. Think that's it in a nut shell.

Basically apply common sense to the situation, and not get carried away with it.

Personally, there are times when I hold the door open for other people, times when I pass the holding of an open door off to another person.    I don't try to break my neck opening car doors for people, or insist they hold the door open for me. Basically, you get your door and I get mine, so we can get into the car together at the same time, and not spend needless time in the parking lot.

If it's a special occasion, then I'm one for using protocals such as this.

People often do things they think society expects, when society is so damn diverse to begin with.  So what is really the right or wrong protocal or way about doing something?   This is something you need to figure out for yourself.

However, if you are one of those people that like to take up two spaces in a parking lot, expect somebody to bitch at you or even leave a nasty note on your wind shield.   If you find that people in public take frequent offense at your own protocals, I'd suggest rethinking it.   If you find other people are honored by your protocols, this is a good thing.

< Message edited by Owner4SexSlave -- 12/7/2007 4:41:16 AM >

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 7

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 4:42:06 AM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

my answer is simple: what the.dark said.

It's not that my Master never opens or holds the door for me but, it's usually me that opens and holds the door for Him and, when He does, it's because He wants to, usually because my hands are full. It's never for the purpose of appearing 'gentlemanly' or anything else to anyone. i wouldn't serve a man who was so concerned about 'keeping up appearances' or trying to impress others. i have gone out on dates with some men, before, who were phony and superficial and i never saw them again. i only want to be with a man who is His own Man.

Wishing you happy and safe travels.......

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Have a wonderful 'last day'... I am living vicariously through you at the moment Kyra! So excited for you all.

quote:

Submissives, would you want your dominant to do these things and their only motivation is not to appear ungentlemanly or cheap to others?

My answer is no because I would never choose to submit or be with someone whos motivations where based on the expectations of others.
My answer is also no because I submit to Darcy because this is one of the qualities I admired and still admire. He has never been a sheep. He has never done anything because of others ethical codes or morals. When he does something, he does it because he wants to.
My answer is also no because that would be his response.

the.dark.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 8

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 4:44:15 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

Submissives, would you want your dominant to do these things and their only motivation is not to appear ungentlemanly or cheap to others?

I have been opening doors most my life

; I don't need a man at my side to do that for me.
I have had doors opened for me just as many times; by both women and men.

I have never cared much for what others thought; I do what I want and I would not be with a person who acted only in accordance with how others expected him to act.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 9

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 4:46:12 AM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Dominants do you do certain things with your submissive only because society expects it? An couple of examples are, open a door for your submissive or pay for dinner when you take her out

Master often does both of these things and more because He wants to, not because society expects it and not because I expect it. However, He doesn't always do them the same way. Usually when we eat out, He'll pay with His bank card (from the account where He deposits His paychecks). Other times, He pays it from the account where He deposits the paychecks I bring home. Sometimes, He tells me to pay with cash that He has given me for an allowance. It varies depending on what He wants. Opening doors is just something He considers polite and was raised doing and almost always does this with building doors and car doors.

quote:

Submissives, would you want your dominant to do these things and their only motivation is not to appear ungentlemanly or cheap to others?

Not really. It would shock me if my Master did what others "expected" Him to do rather than what He desires. He just doesn't operate like that. He doesn't care what "society" as a whole thinks He should do and probably cares even less about what the BDSM "community" thinks about how dominants should operate. Not to get off on a tangent, but He is fond of smiling at how some others would think about how He operates with me. He does (and doesn't do) many things that probably are in violation of that great "Dom Handbook."

He does what pleases Him, period. To hell with what others think..................luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 10

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 4:55:02 AM

OldBastardly1

Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

slaveluci, give your Sir a Domly high 5 for me, lol. I agree.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad

(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 11

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 4:57:01 AM

TysGalilah

Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I just have to ask this question; I have a pretty strong gut reaction to it and I am hoping to hear differing opinions.

This question is more in terms of male dominants and female submissives, but I am sure it could be flipped around a bit to include female dominants and male submissives...

Dominants do you do certain things with your submissive only because society expects it? An couple of examples are, open a door for your submissive or pay for dinner when you take her out. In general, society tends to expect the male to perform certain tasks and if not then you are not a gentleman or you are cheap or any other number of negative characterizations. If you do these things, it is because society or others expect it of you or it is because that is really what you want to do? If you don't do these things, it is because you don't want to do them or is it motivated out of a desire to do the opposite of what is generally expected?

Submissives, would you want your dominant to do these things and their only motivation is not to appear ungentlemanly or cheap to others?

Hopefully that is clear; I have to go to work and wont' get back to this until later.

Knight's Kyra

~ as smilezz says, Happy Friday everyone; it is my last day of work!!!

Cngrats Kyra!!! woohoo hope you go out with a bang : )
I can only imagine how happy you feel today..

Tyson opens the doors for me...pays when we go out...often puts his hand at my back to indicate in what direction he intends us to go or turn while walking. He enjoys doing these things, and I enjoy doing what pleases him. I think he does these things because "that's the way his mama and daddy raised him", and is what you would hear if you asked him why...
He is a southerngentleman, and so some of that is regional affirmed I suppose..

Do I expect this because he is a dominant? no, not expect.

Would I be disappointed if that didn't happen? no.
I want what pleases him.

Do I like that he enjoys those things? sure do! I love it.
wrong or right...stereotypical or not> it makes me feel nice...and it does say " the one in control" to me...

_____________________________

galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 12

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 5:01:05 AM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

slaveluci, give your Sir a Domly high 5 for me, lol. I agree.

Will do, OldBastardly1

. I feel so rude calling you a bastard

.............luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to OldBastardly1)

Post #: 13

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 5:08:29 AM

adoracat

Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline

~~fast reply~~

Daddy opens doors, has me take his arm, guides me where he wishes to go, in all ways is a gentleman, because HE wishes to do so.

he says he's proud of me and wishes to show me off.

kitten

(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 14

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 5:12:17 AM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

I do what I want with my sub because I am capable of thinking outside of the societal box. Sometimes I buy the meals, sometimes he does, sometimes we go dutch, it depends on what I choose. However he always opens the doors and carries packages because that is how I have trained him.

Do I care what other people think? Hell no, I've got more important things to think about. Besides its my life, I am doing to live it as I see fit.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 15

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 5:17:18 AM

Littlepita

Posts: 1430
Joined: 10/6/2005
Status: offline

Like others here, my Daddy does what he wants, for his own reasons. As part of my learning to submit to his will the first things I had to give up doing for myself were opening doors or carrying any packages up the stairs. I can't help with the groceries or carry my book bag up the stairs. It took time to learn to accept, but I love it now and it does make me feel owned and special. He will also lead me around by placing his hand in the small of my back, he always orders for me and pays, and because I live in the south I can call him Sir without anyone thinking it odd. Life is good.

_____________________________

“I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” – Anais Nin

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 16

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 5:19:40 AM

sambamanslilgirl

Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

fast reply

society these days could care less which gender opens the door, pays for a $4 cup of coffee and/or steps aside so a woman can get on or off the lift (elevator). those days of chivalry are long gone. yes there are a few (nilla or lifestyle) who remain true to those ways however that's a very very small percentage. that number is dwindling down fast as society moves towards its first decade of the millennium.

Daddy and my fiance are one of those few and they do it NOT because society expects them to do it. they do it because that's how they were raised. i was raised to be independent and not wait for a man to do things for me i.e. open the door for me or hold my hand as i get out of the car. when my fiance comes in Jan, i'll be taking him out to eat and paying for his admission to a couple of shows i'm getting in free. if he wants to pay, that's fine ...i don't mind going dutch.

< Message edited by sambamanslilgirl -- 12/7/2007 5:20:23 AM >

_____________________________

...2011 - year of the fabulous rock star life ...and i do it so well...

...announcing Mr. & Mrs. British Petrol ...yeah, marrying into oil is slick business...

(in reply to adoracat)

Post #: 17

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 5:21:36 AM

OldBastardly1

Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

Sometimes we will walk hand in hand and I will guide her with a gentle turn of her hand/wrist to indicate which way to go, even when to stop or speed up. It is subtle and nobody else sees it. They just see us walking as one, in perfect sync. We have many ways to use/feel our dynamic in public without others knowing and that gives both of us a good feeling. We can be in a store, with her a couple aisles away, and I want her to come to me. I will snap my fingers, which is loud, and as other people ( sometimes me too just for the fun of it ) are looking around for the source of the sound, my dear sub knows it is me and comes to me quickly.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad

(in reply to adoracat)

Post #: 18

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 5:28:15 AM

Gardenista

Posts: 146
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline

Heheh, as Edith and Archie sang: " Those were the days". =) When my husband and I were dating, he held the door, pulled out chairs, even ordered off the menu for me sometimes. Now it's me holding the door, and it's usually because I walk a bit faster, thus getting to the entrance before he does. Oh well, such is life for a married couple approaching middle age. ;)

To answer your question, though.. I do believe that it's part of my husband's nature to uphold societal expectations. I was also a struggling single mother when we met, so treating me like a princess was definitely his way easing my burden for awhile. ( and getting into my pants).

All that gentlemanly shit obviously worked. Pants have been well and truely gotten into, and I married the old coot. =)

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 19

RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 5:46:35 AM

ghitaPVH

Posts: 1363
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline

with us....who ever happens to get to the door first opens it...which is normally the 8yo UM.

we dont do that whole walking one step behing or off the the left type stuff either. normally cause one of us is chasing one toddler and the other is chasing the other toddler.

Even when we are at a Leather event, I follow the protocols Daddy has laid out for me, which are usually WAY different than anything anyone else in the room is doing. Sometimes people look at us funny, I just keep doing what Daddy tells me to do. Its part of why I love him, that he refuses to change himself for anyone else. But sometimes its embarrasing...I personally if left on my own would probably conform to everyone else to avoid people looking at me funny.

_____________________________

Don't expect anything of me and I promise I'll never disappoint you.

"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything. --Nietzsche"

(in reply to Gardenista)

Post #: 20

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