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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 5:07:46 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
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From: Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Dominants do you do certain things with your submissive only because society expects it?  An couple of examples are, open a door for your submissive or pay for dinner when you take her out.  In general, society tends to expect the male to perform certain tasks and if not then you are not a gentleman or you are cheap or any other number of negative characterizations.  If you do these things, it is because society or others expect it of you or it is because that is really what you want to do?  If you don't do these things, it is because you don't want to do them or is it motivated out of a desire to do the opposite of what is generally expected?


My owner does gentlemanly things when he wants (which is most of the time, but I wouldn't say all the time) - and I think he does it primarily because he was raised to do that.  I make more money than him so I pay for the big ticket sorts of things, but if we are going out he usually pays for that, so I wouldn't say we fit entirely into the typical male dominant/female submissive mold.

C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 12/7/2007 5:08:16 PM >

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 5:49:28 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you for all the well-wishes.  I am so excited but trying to contain it so that I can think clearly and not forget anything.  The truck is half packed; tomorrow is a busy day of cleaning and finishing last minute stuff and then Sunday I will be on the road.

I also appreciate all the replies and different views. 

Have a great weekend!

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 6:00:50 PM   
kyraofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Dominants do you do certain things with your submissive only because society expects it?  An couple of examples are, open a door for your submissive or pay for dinner when you take her out.  In general, society tends to expect the male to perform certain tasks and if not then you are not a gentleman or you are cheap or any other number of negative characterizations. 


I doubt if anyone could make a compelling case that today's society demands such mannerisms. 

When I do them, they are an example of control, since I am the one who chooses to be courteous, especially in a D/s situation.


I don't consider it a compelling case, but the impetus for this thread was the going dutch thread in Ask a Master section.  The dominant in the scenario was considered cheap by many who responded because he did not buy the submissive a drink when he ordered her to go to the pub with him.  Also the statement that whoever does the inviting should pay or would be expected to pay for the dinner/drink was mentioned by more than one person. 

It was a somewhat trainwreck of a thread, but I just couldn't understand why a dominant should do certain things for their submissive that has given full control to them if they didn't want to.  And then why they were viewed so poorly by people because they didn't live up to other people's expectations.

Thank you for the response.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 6:13:46 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

It was a somewhat trainwreck of a thread, but I just couldn't understand why a dominant should do certain things for their submissive that has given full control to them if they didn't want to.  And then why they were viewed so poorly by people because they didn't live up to other people's expectations


I do not think in that case he lived up to the expectations of the submissive who he went to the bar with. If she had no problem with it, paid for her own drink unquestioningly, who would care? I think that many of us have expectations of what "we" expect of our partner's, but that doesn't mean that I expect other people to expect what I do.

I know of women who are the primary bread winners in the world and they pay for everything... they are happy, my opinion does not mean shit to them, nor should it. If asked for my opinion of how I would feel if I was the sole support for a man, I would say... "that is not for me".

About that other thread, I was under the impression she had not given full control over to him... was I wrong about that? If my Daddy ordered me to pay for my own lunch, drink, movie ticket... whatever... at this point I would do it. He would not order me to do it unless he knew I had the money to do so, but that is how it works when one has given "full control" over... they know each other well enough to establish knowledge of each other's finances... or they should have in my opinion


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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 6:13:55 PM   
Divina


Posts: 10
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline 		The men I go out with, tops or subs, are gentlemen. And they behave as such, showing courtesy and respect not only to me but to anybody, because they abide by their inner code of conduct and not by a societal norm (society has too many problems to care for "protocols" these days)
Come to think of it, all my male friends are like this :) And I surely wish more people in this world were courteous; that they wouldn't shove people on their way to the subway, wouldn't rush to grab a parking space, would help a lady take the baby's pram up the stairs, or an old lady carry her shopping bags.

Because you see, being a gentleman is much much more than opening doors or paying for a meal, which are but instances of courtesy displays and indeed can end up becoming parts of a role which the males are sadly expected to play.
Behaving in a gentlemanly manner, displaying good manners is an expression of civility and urbanity, of empathy and courtesy, pretty much irrelevant of bdsm.
Examples:
I am queing for much sought after opera tickets. I am standing behind two rather aged gentlemen who were talking about music. Of course I am shamelessly eavesdropping because their scope of knowledge in music is tremendous and can't help butting in the conversation. When they approach the ticket booth they both let me go first even though it was a question of time when the tickets would be sold out. The courtesy displayed by these gentlemen was just one of the reasons I admired them and evidently an indispensible aspect of their cultural make - up. From that day on, I have loved queues.

Second example: my mother is on holiday in a country in the middle east. She is on her own, away from the group and the guide and she needs to buy some water from a coffee shop. The shop owner is not familiar with the currency of euro and although she is paying him more than required, he is not selling anything unless he sees his country's currency, and in fact, in the exact change. A gentleman is standing near by, watching the whole exchange and ...of course gives the man the money he is asking, offers the water to my very grateful mom, and goes on his way.

while of course, finally...
the man I love, every time he gives me an order,  says "please"...and I melt.

< Message edited by Divina -- 12/7/2007 6:29:14 PM >

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 6:28:27 PM   
kyraofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

About that other thread, I was under the impression she had not given full control over to him... was I wrong about that?


My perceptions of the post were conflicted.  She said that she had been "playing with this dom" and then later in the same post she said "i give full control over to the dom".  Going by her words, she had given full control over to him.

Of course, her later posts several pages later she said that this was only the second time she was with the dominant... 

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 6:33:36 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Well my opinion from what I read, which I skipped many posts on that thread, was that they were "dating". Personally I do not like dating dutch because I am rather old fashioned this way. It is my expectations that count in this regard.. no one else's.

If that dom can find a sub that likes feeding him at her expense and is satisfied with paying her own way when they go out, more power to him... I just think it is tacky to eat over at someone's house repeatedly, and then the only opportunity that he has been given to be reciprocal he tells her to buy her own... surely it is his right as a dom to act that way, and I would execise my right as a submissive to dump his cheap ass...lol. And yes, I think people that are "takers" suck. But that is just my opinion

_____________________________

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 6:45:07 PM   
slavegirljoy


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From: North Carolina, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Dominants do you do certain things with your submissive only because society expects it?  An couple of examples are, open a door for your submissive or pay for dinner when you take her out.  In general, society tends to expect the male to perform certain tasks and if not then you are not a gentleman or you are cheap or any other number of negative characterizations. 

I doubt if anyone could make a compelling case that today's society demands such mannerisms. 
Seriously!  i don't think i have heard a debate about whether men should open doors for women or vice verse since about 1979, when the Equal Rights Amendment failed to be ratified.  The subject of who should open who's door just seems to be very outdated, to me.   Does anyone even pay that much attention to how other couples operate, that they are going to wonder why the woman is holding the door for the man or care whether the man is not being a 'gentleman', if he doesn't open the door for the woman? In addition to the slight deja vu i'm experiencing with this topic, i think there's an interesting dichotomy, that some submissive women say they feel more submissive when the man holds the door for her and there are Dominant men who don't feel at all submissive when the woman holds the door for Him.

quote:

When I do them, they are an example of control, since I am the one who chooses to be courteous, especially in a D/s situation.
As for me, i like opening and holding the door for my Master, just to be helpful and courteous to Him and to show Him my respect.  He doesn't need to tell me to do it or to 'take charge' of opening the door Himself, in order to be Dominant over me.  i choose to be courteous toward most everyone.  i often hold the door for others and i don't feel at all Dominant doing so. When a man opens the door for me, that doesn't cause me to feel more submissive.  It's a nice thing for him to do but, i don't feel any difference in my submissiveness.  In fact, i can't think of anything that makes me feel more or less submissive than i am.  i always feel submissive to my Master, no matter what i am doing or He is doing.  There are things that make me feel more vulnerable, like being naked, tied, gagged and, blindfolded.  But, i don't feel any more or less submissive. Still seems weird to me, to be discussing this topic in 2007, some 40 years since the National Organization for Women was formed to push for equal rights for women and feminists were calling men, who opened doors for women, "Male Chauvinist Pigs."  i guess this is just one more example of how "the more things change, the more they stay the same." By the way, How many men does it take to open a beer?
None.  It should be opened when she brings it. slave joyOwned property of Master David

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 6:51:00 PM   
DiurnalVampire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
If you do these things, it is because society or others expect it of you or it is because that is really what you want to do?  If you don't do these things, it is because you don't want to do them or is it motivated out of a desire to do the opposite of what is generally expected?

When I go out with one of the boys I tend to pick up the check. They open doors for me, sometimes. I have asked Angel to order for me when I was going to be away in the restroom and the sheer idea made him cringe. I order for him more often than not. We act this way around one another because it is what I am most comfortable with. either boy does what they do to be a gentleman, they do it becaue I desire it. They had manners before, but I put a stop to things like pulling out chairs and trying to pick up tabs. Angel can, he makes decent money. Fox cant. I dont mind, I can so I do.

DV


_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 6:55:04 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

In addition to the slight deja vu i'm experiencing with this topic, i think there's an interesting dichotomy, that some submissive women say they feel more submissive when the man holds the door for her and there are Dominant men who don't feel at all submissive when the woman holds the door for Him.

 
You know, this was in my mind earlier when thinking about this thread... having experienced both sides of this...

My first relationship after my husband and I split was with a man that I knew before I had even married my husband. This man was besotted with me, and I knew it. When I said jump, he would say "How high?" It was part of what did not work in that relationship for me, because I believe him to be somewhat naturally submissive (even though I did not know these things at the time). I had an infant when we were seeing each other... this meant I was constantly packing around a car seat, play pen, diaper bag, toy bag... and this man would carry my things and my baby's things like a pack mule... and I came to expect that he would in the 9 months that we were seeing each other. Looking back, it made me uncomfortable, because he let me call the shots, and his carrying my things around was just one expression of this.

Now I am with a man that carries my luggage (when his elbow is not injured). He opens doors for me. He is basically what I think of as "the man" when it comes to these things... he takes care of me... the difference is how he goes about it... I do not tell him how high, he tells me what he is going to do and then he goes about doing it... he tells me "I will open the door" "I am getting that bag" "I am taking that trash down". It is not up to me what he does. The energy is completely different even though technically these two men did the same things.

I do not know if that makes sense or not

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 7:59:40 PM   
slavegirljoy


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From: North Carolina, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Now I am with a man that carries my luggage (when his elbow is not injured). He opens doors for me. He is basically what I think of as "the man" when it comes to these things... he takes care of me... the difference is how he goes about it... I do not tell him how high, he tells me what he is going to do and then he goes about doing it... he tells me "I will open the door" "I am getting that bag" "I am taking that trash down". It is not up to me what he does. The energy is completely different even though technically these two men did the same things.

I do not know if that makes sense or not

Yes, it makes sense to me.  i have had similar experiences.  One in particular, was with a guy who was 9 years younger than me and he would never make a decision.  It was not a D/s relationship but, i felt like he wanted me to be in charge of everything.   He refused to ever make a decision.  Whenever i would ask him what he would like to do, he would always say to me, "Whatever you want."  It drove me nuts.  One time, i yelled at him to just make a choice.  We were talking about going to see a movie and i was tired of always being the one who had to decide so, i kept asking him what movie he wanted to see and he just kept answering, "Whichever one you want to see."  i couldn't take it any more and, i told him, "Fine.  i will go see the movie i want to see and you can stay here."  That was the end of that relationship. 
 
It's nice when my Master gives me the opportunity to choose what i would like to see or do but, i couldn't stand it when all of the choices were mine to make.  That's why i like the clearly defined roles that my Master and i have with each other.  He is the decision-maker and i am more than happy to be given the that privilege when He sees fit to give it to me but, i never want to keep it.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 8:01:45 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
Seriously!  i don't think i have heard a debate about whether men should open doors for women or vice verse since about 1979, when the Equal Rights Amendment failed to be ratified. 

HA you want me to bring out the threads just here from the past three years?

quote:

Does anyone even pay that much attention to how other couples operate, that they are going to wonder why the woman is holding the door for the man or care whether the man is not being a 'gentleman', if he doesn't open the door for the woman?

Sadly, in the scene, yes.

As I said in another thread not too long ago- most people embrace Ds at least in part because it allows them to wallow in their sexist roles and expectations, and often they consider it inherent to the very dynamic itself.

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 8:03:01 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		My Daddy gets impatient with my inability to make decisions because I look at him for what his true preference is, even though I know logically that if he had a true preference he would not be asking me.... I am getting better about that one.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 8:03:38 PM   
Lumus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Dominants do you do certain things with your submissive only because society expects it?  An couple of examples are, open a door for your submissive or pay for dinner when you take her out.  In general, society tends to expect the male to perform certain tasks and if not then you are not a gentleman or you are cheap or any other number of negative characterizations.  If you do these things, it is because society or others expect it of you or it is because that is really what you want to do?

Knight's Kyra

~ as smilezz says, Happy Friday everyone; it is my last day of work!!!



Boo.  I work tomorrow.

Seriously, though...I have never opened a door for a lady, pushed her chair in, offered her the last crumb, or done any of those other things for the sake of something like society.  That's how I was raised.  In my family, chivalry isn't dead, nor is it a backhand slap to liberalism [as some women have tried to convince me in the past...].

I'm hardly what might pass for a gentleman, but I nonetheless make efforts to assist others and in general play nice.  Doesn't matter if they're a lady or a tramp.


< Message edited by Lumus -- 12/7/2007 8:33:13 PM >

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/7/2007 8:11:58 PM   
MidMichCowboy


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Status: offline 		I don't really care what is expected of me. I open doors, seat the lady, walk by the curb, hold her hand, enjoy her company and will "suggest" something at the restaurant. If people approve or disapprove, I really don't care. If I go shopping with her (rare but it happens), I like to see what she tries on and give my opinion. I also like to pick out outfits for her to try on. I was raised this way.  I enjoy being this way. I see no reason to change.

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/8/2007 3:29:15 PM   
slavegirljoy


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From: North Carolina, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

As I said in another thread not too long ago- most people embrace Ds at least in part because it allows them to wallow in their sexist roles and expectations, and often they consider it inherent to the very dynamic itself.

This i understand.  What i don't understand is why anyone would still be worrying about 'societal standards' of 'gentlemanly behavior' such as, opening a door for a woman.  i had really thought that issue was passe, along with the thought that there were any negative implications associated with a man not opening the door for a woman.  It seemed to be a dead issue many years ago, around the time that Billie Jean King beat Bobby Riggs in three straight sets of tennis.  Somehow, i recall that the argument ended with the general consensus being that each individual and each couple would do whatever they were comfortable with, instead of doing what was 'expected' by society.
 
Although this thread didn't specify which kind of doors, i have been thinking a lot about who opens the car door for a woman, either the man or the woman, herself.  It used to be that a woman would stand there waiting for the man to open the car door for her and he better not even think about just reaching over from the driver's seat to do it.  But, that was so long ago. 
 
Ever since i started going out with boys in cars, there have been very few times that i didn't open the car door by myself.  In fact, i can count on my two hands, the number of times a man has opened the car door for me, from the outside, waited for me to sit down and then closed the door for me.  Those instances usually occurred on first dates and a few second dates but, rarely, if ever after that.  Interestingly, not one Dominant man has ever opened a car door for me.  But, i never really gave it too much thought.  Whether a man opened the car door for me or not, never affected my opinion of him.  i usually saw it as his way of trying to make a good impression on me or, simply being nice and nothing more than that.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/8/2007 6:56:28 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

This i understand.  What i don't understand is why anyone would still be worrying about 'societal standards' of 'gentlemanly behavior' such as, opening a door for a woman.  i had really thought that issue was passe, along with the thought that there were any negative implications associated with a man not opening the door for a woman.  It seemed to be a dead issue many years ago, around the time that Billie Jean King beat Bobby Riggs in three straight sets of tennis.  Somehow, i recall that the argument ended with the general consensus being that each individual and each couple would do whatever they were comfortable with, instead of doing what was 'expected' by society.


Sadly... there is a significant group of individuals that wrap their identities with the their preceived ideals of how we in society should behave with one another.  Everyone is in a box that has been properly labeled and catergorized.  With each group there are associated expectations of behavior.  With out this universal structure of everyone the person is lost in their ability to interact constructively with others.  Another aspect is such individuals have a deep need to belong or have a place in the community.  With a structured world that they preceive it will allow them to place themselves in the community.. in short they have a place to belong.  Unfotunately, anyone that behaves in manner outside of their structured world can become a thread to their place in the community.   and you get... OH.. he is so rude because he didn't hold the door for her...... or  "didn't buy dinner! what a cheap bastard"... the list goes one.

I very much prefer to do what works for me and I know that some things I do are not common place.  But some things are.  I don't do them to fit in!  I do what I do... because that is what works in "my world"....  If what I do happens to be common place is irrelevant to me.  Granted.. the world around me as affected me.... just like my parents in he raising of me and just like my girls.  Everything around me has the potential to affect how I choose to live my world.... but at the end... I am responsible for it... and do use the cope out... because everyone does it or everyone expects it or it politically correct or socially acceptable. 

My Choices...My behaviors... My consequences... My responsibility!


< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/8/2007 6:57:19 PM >

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/8/2007 7:08:14 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I know that if I act in certain ways people may think ill of me for it, and to be honest, if it is important to me to act contrary to what others think is acceptable I go for it!

At the same time, as you have communicated, I know there are consequences for my behavior because if I behave outside of what society thinks is acceptable... people may think I am rude, immoral, unkind, etc. We are all individuals, but individuals live in social groups with each other. They form opinions of each other based upon their interactions with each other. I may think someone is a cheap bastard, but if he is happy being who he is, it does not matter what I think. I do not pay his bills, so should he care? Only if he has given me power over him by caring about my opinion... such as he would like to spend time with me and I do not wish to spend time with him because I perceive him as a cheapskate.

I do not think my Daddy cares what random people think of him, he does care what I think. And I do not care what random people think of me, but I do care what he thinks...

Someone comes on a message board and asks an opinion about the social behavior of another individual. I have an opinion about that based upon my past experiences and upbringing, everyone else has an opinion based upon their experiences and upbringing... they are all just OPINIONS... we all have one...


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Society's Expectations - 12/8/2007 7:13:29 PM   
daddyncherry


Posts: 656
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline 		i haven't read the responses yet, but i can speak for my Daddy on this one (atleast going by his actions)...

What he does in the way of being gentlemanly is because it is what he chooses to do and has nothing to do with what society expects....certainly his upbringing must come into play but....

If he were concerned with what society thought then he wouldn't allow me to lug around a whole basket of groceries at the store..or let me carry the majority of the bags upstairs when we come home (neither of which bothers me a bit)....sooo i know that what he does is because he wants to do those things for me.


_____________________________

Hugs,
cherry

Walking through life, and fear with a smile on my face.
Walking directly through the eye of the hurricane...and through to the other side..without fear....realizing everything will be okay. :)

being obedient 1day at a time

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Society's Expectations - 12/8/2007 7:28:32 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		I don’t bother so much about societal norms.  One of the dominants in my life expects me to carry my own luggage, bring in the groceries, open doors for him and (gasp) take out the trash. 

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 60
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