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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 8:33:01 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Nice guys finish last in war.

Get back to us when Congress declares one.

Al qeada already did in 9/11/2001.
Just in case you didn't notice.

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 8:43:25 AM

thornhappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And "water boarding" isn't "torture!" We used to do that to each other on "Hell Night" at sea! Grow a pair!

Waterboarding was considered a war crime in WWII (the Japanese did it). So is it only a war crime when it's done by the enemy?

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 8:53:42 AM

Sanity

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Do you gladly submit to the police farglebargle.

No?

Why demand our soldiers do so then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Reductio ad absurdum works for mathematical proofs, and formal logic.

Here it's just rationalizing torture and the destruction of the Constitutional Republic.

If the US is willing to throw away the Constitution to save itself, is there ANYTHING WORTHY OF BEING SAVED?

If an individual soldier feels that it's "The Only Way To Save People", than that torturer should GLADLY submit himself for judgment of his crime.

Not shredding and burning the evidence of those crimes.

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 9:00:12 AM

mnottertail

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Ah, the red herring missiles to the surface like the great whales with a baleen full of crill and looking to get some fish pussy.

Since I doubt farglebargle is ensconsed in a 6x8 in Attica, with my good friend Jessie and his big white friend Be'nahd, I can only posit that while it may not be a pleasantry, he does indeed obey the law of the land and submit to the rule of law.

So he is undoubtably demanding like action of our troops as a free and upright American.

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/8/2007 9:01:11 AM >

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 9:03:57 AM

Sanity

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You're not farglebargle...

I just had to laugh because he seems to me to be the original, "f___ the man" type

I guess you don't get the joke

Look up, you might finally grasp it after all

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 9:05:04 AM

wistfulmale

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So, if you knew that a city of millions had a nuclear bomb hidden in it set to go off within an hour, the principled thing to do according to you would be to treat the terrorist who you knew had planted it as if he were a shoplifter.

Hire him a lawyer, make sure he's comfortable, keep him away from the blast zone so he's good and safe...

That's principled?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I was watching O'Reilly last night, on the issue of waterboarding. He said to the person he was interviewing "The difference between you and I, is that you would walk out of the room to preserve your principles, and I would do what I needed to do, to save American lives.". Principles is what makes the difference in people, and if you sacrifice them for the supposed greater good, there is no difference between the evil we see, and the evil we become. When you sacrifice principles, you are killing the soul of what this country was founded on. Americans sacrificed their lives on principle to found this country, and it will take the sacrifice of American lives to keep our principles (and I do not mean war). Once we give up our liberties and principles, there are no defining characteristics that seperates the US from anyone else. This is something that has been lost on so many administrations in the past 30 odd years.

Live well,
Orion

A major fault in this premise is that you assume that said tortured individual will tell the truth.

What's to stop him from saying absolutely anything to stop the "interrogation" long enough to that the Feds run off to find the bomb's erroneous location? In the meantime, because the Feds are looking in the wrong place, the bomb still goes off. So now we've tortured a guy, still not gotten to the bomb in time, and still millions are dead.

You can't trust any information gathered from torture. It doesn't work simply because tortured individuals will say anything to stop the torture.

The best defense against these guys is good old fashioned (and legal) police work. (Which, I'd like to further point out in this hypothetical argument, if we knew enough that there was a bomb somewhere, we'd probably have enough info to know it's rough location, making this argument, again, a faulty premise).

Off the top of my head, all of the "busts" in Europe have been due to this, not due to some hastily ratified laws giving the government some previously unwarranted powers or by ignoring the Geneva Convention.

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 9:06:58 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: feralkyttin

I have a confession to make. I hope I do not seem to be a dumb ass, but I do not even understand what water boarding is. I will look it up on my own, of course. Just on principle though, I wanted to say that I found a lot of useful things here. In my experience, things are pretty hit and miss with O'Reilly.... just like with everyone else. Take it or leave it. Believe it or don't. Get off your dumb ass and find out what YOU believe. Stand by your principals in the process and give thanks to those who helped you, even if they never even know you did it.

I hope this wasn't too out of place.

meesha

Water boarding is prolonged suffocation,using water.It`s an age old form of torture,done in medieval times, and before.

The victim is usually bound and tied on their back to a board, tilted backwards with the head down(head strapped down too).

A soaking towel is placed around the nose and mouth and water is poured in and over the cloth,cutting off air and filling the sinuses ,nose and mouth with water.

The head can also be "dipped" in a pale of water (and/or piss),to cut off air.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 12/8/2007 9:07:24 AM >

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 9:14:19 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You're not farglebargle...

I just had to laugh because he seems to me to be the original, "f___ the man" type

I guess you don't get the joke

Look up, you might finally grasp it after all

I shall not look up for fear of being waterboarded.

Ron

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 9:35:00 AM

bipolarber

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Wow. Amazing how quickly we shit on our own ideals, the moment our security is challenged. The whole idea of fast, fair trials... knowing who your accusers are, and what the specific charges are against you (heabeus corpus) has been tossed out the window. All you have to do is label people terrorists, and you can literally get away with torture and murder...

No, popeye is right, Al Queida is not a signatory to the Geneva Convention. You have to be a nation to do that, not a religious rabble. But we, the United States, ARE signed up to honor that agreement. The Bush administration just chose to break them. In doing so, he puts all of our men and women overseas in greater danger of inhuman treatment should they be captured.

I guess having principles like this is what makes us civilized, and puts us one step above the "goat-herders"... Personally, I'd rather the US go down fighting for what it believed in from the beginning... and not lower itself to the level of the terrorists.

After all, Bin Leiden was quoted that his intent was to make the US a shadow of it's former self.... looks like he's doing a heck of a job!

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 9:36:08 AM

peterK50

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Principles are principles, if you start changing them to fit the situation then they aren't principles at all. Yesterday was the anniversary of Pearl Harbor, as dastardy an event as 9/11. F.D.R. went to congress & asked for a declaration of war against Japan, the vote had one nay. a congresswoman [whose name escapes me] who said, "I shall not change my principles to fit the latest fashion."

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 10:10:44 AM

Sanity

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Name any enemy past or present that has ever treated American soldiers by anything like the Geneva Convention.

You can't do it.

Al-qaeda may cut our soldiers heads off quicker if they have more respect for them, that's it. Use sharper butter knives maybe.

We can't extend our constitutional rights to our enemies and still expect to win wars, that's just not realistic. We're far more humane than any enemy we've ever faced and that's still the case despite your senseless arguments to the contrary.

You want your head on a chopping block so you can prove we're better than them, but after you're dead they would rule the earth with the principles that killed yours.

So then, where would your principles be?

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Wow. Amazing how quickly we shit on our own ideals, the moment our security is challenged. The whole idea of fast, fair trials... knowing who your accusers are, and what the specific charges are against you (heabeus corpus) has been tossed out the window. All you have to do is label people terrorists, and you can literally get away with torture and murder...

No, popeye is right, Al Queida is not a signatory to the Geneva Convention. You have to be a nation to do that, not a religious rabble. But we, the United States, ARE signed up to honor that agreement. The Bush administration just chose to break them. In doing so, he puts all of our men and women overseas in greater danger of inhuman treatment should they be captured.

I guess having principles like this is what makes us civilized, and puts us one step above the "goat-herders"... Personally, I'd rather the US go down fighting for what it believed in from the beginning... and not lower itself to the level of the terrorists.

After all, Bin Leiden was quoted that his intent was to make the US a shadow of it's former self.... looks like he's doing a heck of a job!

< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/8/2007 10:14:12 AM >

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 10:15:38 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Do you gladly submit to the police farglebargle.

I'm not torturing prisoners under the color of law.

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 10:16:47 AM

Sanity

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You're selective though, in what laws you obey. Correct?

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Do you gladly submit to the police farglebargle.

I'm not torturing prisoners under the color of law.

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 10:17:24 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Nice guys finish last in war.

Get back to us when Congress declares one.

Al qeada already did in 9/11/2001.
Just in case you didn't notice.

Al Qaeda isn't capable of declaring war. They are a criminal organization. When Al Qaeda is a Sovereign Nation, get back to me.

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 10:17:28 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

Name any enemy past or present that has ever treated American soldiers by anything like the Geneva Convention.

The German navy and air force until we started violating the rules, just offhand.

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/8/2007 10:18:15 AM >

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 10:18:36 AM

Sanity

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The Germans didn't obey any conventions, you should be ashamed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

Name any enemy past or present that has ever treated American soldiers by anything like the Geneva Convention.

The German navy until we started violating the rules, just offhand.

Ron

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 10:21:03 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And "water boarding" isn't "torture!" We used to do that to each other on "Hell Night" at sea! Grow a pair!

Waterboarding was considered a war crime in WWII (the Japanese did it). So is it only a war crime when it's done by the enemy?

thornhappy

What people CHOOSE TO CONSENT TO OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL is not at issue here.

The Rule of Law, and whether a Constitutional Republic willing to set aside Equal Protection and Due Process is WORTHY of being sustained is the issue.

The proper legal prosecution of criminals who torture people held in their custody is the issue.

And cowards without honor and integrity like O'Reilly and his supporters, who would apologize for those torturers...

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 10:23:30 AM

mnottertail

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NOT so..and not ashamed. You are misinformed.

Ron

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 10:32:33 AM

TheHeretic

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       I don't watch O'Reilly, or listen to his radio program. He's annoying.

     Principles and values come into conflict all the time. You have to make your choices. A very common example of this is the old 'is it wrong to steal food if you are hungry' question. I have known my answer to that question since I was very young, and it isn't the politically correct one.

     It's how you prioritize the principles.

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 10:41:02 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You're selective though, in what laws you obey. Correct?

Every man or woman possessing free will CHOOSES to be obedient or disobedient to the Law.

And when their crimes are discovered, instead of being whiny little bitches, destroying evidence of crimes, covering up, and rationalizing those crimes, is the sign of a coward -- not anyone "Defending this Nation". If they were defending the nation, they would have prevented the torture of a prisoner.

You know, obedience to their oath...

Because remember here. We're not talking about Ordinary Citizens, are we.

We're talking about people who stood up, and swore an OATH to act in accordance with the Written Law and Constitution.

And if they'll weasel around their obligations under that Oath, then are they really worthy of service in the first place? Of course not, we're talking about torturers here.

There is no pity for torturers. They chose to act like animals.

Remember Cicero:

quote:

Though there are some men in this body who either do not see what threatens, or dissemble what they do see; who have fed the hope of Catiline by mild sentiments, and have strengthened the rising conspiracy by not believing it; influenced by whose authority many, and they not wicked, but only ignorant, if I punished him, would say that I had acted cruelly and tyrannically. But I know that if he arrives at the camp of Manlius to which he is going, there will be no one so stupid as not to see that there has been a conspiracy, no one so hardened as not to confess it. But if this man alone were put to death, I know that this disease of the republic would be only checked for a while, not eradicated forever. But if he banishes himself, and takes with him all his friends, and collects at one point all the ruined men from every quarter, then not only will this full-grown plague of the republic be extinguished and eradicated, but also the root and seed of all future evils.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 12/8/2007 10:51:29 AM >

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