quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Every man or woman possessing free will CHOOSES to be obedient or disobedient to the Law.

And when their crimes are discovered, instead of being whiny little bitches, destroying evidence of crimes, covering up, and rationalizing those crimes, is the sign of a coward -- not anyone "Defending this Nation". If they were defending the nation, they would have prevented the torture of a prisoner.

You know, obedience to their oath...

Because remember here. We're not talking about Ordinary Citizens, are we.

We're talking about people who stood up, and swore an OATH to act in accordance with the Written Law and Constitution.

And if they'll weasel around their obligations under that Oath, then are they really worthy of service in the first place? Of course not, we're talking about torturers here.

There is no pity for torturers. They chose to act like animals.

Remember Cicero:

quote:


Though there are some men in this body who either do not see what threatens, or dissemble what they do see; who have fed the hope of Catiline by mild sentiments, and have strengthened the rising conspiracy by not believing it; influenced by whose authority many, and they not wicked, but only ignorant, if I punished him, would say that I had acted cruelly and tyrannically. But I know that if he arrives at the camp of Manlius to which he is going, there will be no one so stupid as not to see that there has been a conspiracy, no one so hardened as not to confess it. But if this man alone were put to death, I know that this disease of the republic would be only checked for a while, not eradicated forever. But if he banishes himself, and takes with him all his friends, and collects at one point all the ruined men from every quarter, then not only will this full-grown plague of the republic be extinguished and eradicated, but also the root and seed of all future evils.

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ORIGINAL: IdiotMale

I wonder how many of you would agree with O'Reily if it it meant saving the life or lives of someone you loved.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

So, if you knew that a city of millions had a nuclear bomb hidden in it set to go off within an hour, the principled thing to do according to you would be to treat  the terrorist who you knew had planted it as if he were a shoplifter.

Hire him a lawyer, make sure he's comfortable, keep him away from the blast zone so he's good and safe...

That's principled?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I was watching O'Reilly last night, on the issue of waterboarding. He said to the person he was interviewing "The difference between you and I, is that you would walk out of the room to preserve your principles, and I would do what I needed to do, to save American lives.". Principles is what makes the difference in people, and if you sacrifice them for the supposed greater good, there is no difference between the evil we see, and the evil we become. When you sacrifice principles, you are killing the soul of what this country was founded on. Americans sacrificed their lives on principle to found this country, and it will take the sacrifice of American lives to keep our principles (and I do not mean war). Once we give up our liberties and principles, there are no defining characteristics that seperates the US from anyone else. This is something that has been lost on so many administrations in the past 30 odd years.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Terrorists and al qeada are not "law enforcement" issues they're Military issues.
Some of you are confusing the two.
As for al qeada in GTMO I don't want them eating my food that I'm paying for one more day than neccessary!
My tax dollars are paying for that chow.
When they're done questioning them take them out back and shoot them in the back of the head as spies.
I wouldn't even give them the dignity of a firing squad.
I'd fly some "civil rights" lawyers down there and make them shoot them.
"Here you go sweety, right under his ear."
Then send a bill to their families for the bullet and the chow.
Or, just take them for a nice helo ride at 3,000 feet 20 miles out to sea like Vietnam.
Who cares, dead is dead.
Or, build some type of tower that's 1,500 feet high, put them all on top of it and light it on fire.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Your telepathy is not working too well. There are exceptions to every rule, and the situation needs to be in evidence to determine course of action, not in hypothetical. A code of ethics, should have a priority assigned to the codes. Your statement is ludicrous, as I could use this as reason to do anything malicious I wished, because I believed each of those people was harboring information that could kill millions.

There are lines, and they need to be clearly defined. When exceptions arise, someone needs to make a decision, and be held accountable for that decision. In your case, I might very well use what ever means I needed to get the information to save those lives, and then turn myself over for prosecution. That is called principles, ethics and accepting responsibility for the consequences of your actions. I am sure you think that is bullshit, because ethical and responsible people are very rare today, and nobody is perfect.

Orion

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

So, if you knew that a city of millions had a nuclear bomb hidden in it set to go off within an hour, the principled thing to do according to you would be to treat  the terrorist who you knew had planted it as if he were a shoplifter.

Hire him a lawyer, make sure he's comfortable, keep him away from the blast zone so he's good and safe...

That's principled?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I was watching O'Reilly last night, on the issue of waterboarding. He said to the person he was interviewing "The difference between you and I, is that you would walk out of the room to preserve your principles, and I would do what I needed to do, to save American lives.". Principles is what makes the difference in people, and if you sacrifice them for the supposed greater good, there is no difference between the evil we see, and the evil we become. When you sacrifice principles, you are killing the soul of what this country was founded on. Americans sacrificed their lives on principle to found this country, and it will take the sacrifice of American lives to keep our principles (and I do not mean war). Once we give up our liberties and principles, there are no defining characteristics that seperates the US from anyone else. This is something that has been lost on so many administrations in the past 30 odd years.

Live well,
Orion

1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
   
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

You can't "fight nice" with al qeada.
They've proven that over and over again.
Also, they are not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions.
Forget torturing them, they can be shot as spies *under* the Geneva Conventions.
I'm waiting for the firing squads in GTMO!
Why are we letting them live for so long?
And "water boarding" isn't "torture!" We used to do that to each other on "Hell Night" at sea! Grow a pair!
Strapping those goat ropers down to a dental chair and trying out some new drills would be "torture".
To hear some people talk these days if those savages were served breakfast 10 minutes late that would be "torture."
I can't understand why people think we have to be "nice" to terrorists but it's "ok" if they're "not nice" to us.
That's cognitive dissonance.
They think that we should treat these savages as if they were entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions but when al qeada cuts our guys heads off that's "ok?"
We need to get out of the Geneva Conventions as well as a lot of other "global" or "world" orgs.
They do us absolutely no good! "Put these handcuffs on and step into the ring."
Nice guys finish last in war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

You can't "fight nice" with al qeada.
They've proven that over and over again.
Also, they are not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions.
Forget torturing them, they can be shot as spies *under* the Geneva Conventions.
I'm waiting for the firing squads in GTMO!
Why are we letting them live for so long?
And "water boarding" isn't "torture!" We used to do that to each other on "Hell Night" at sea! Grow a pair!
Strapping those goat ropers down to a dental chair and trying out some new drills would be "torture".
To hear some people talk these days if those savages were served breakfast 10 minutes late that would be "torture."
I can't understand why people think we have to be "nice" to terrorists but it's "ok" if they're "not nice" to us.
That's cognitive dissonance.
They think that we should treat these savages as if they were entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions but when al qeada cuts our guys heads off that's "ok?"
We need to get out of the Geneva Conventions as well as a lot of other "global" or "world" orgs.
They do us absolutely no good! "Put these handcuffs on and step into the ring."
Nice guys finish last in war.

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ORIGINAL: toothlessNsmelly

What on Earth do you think a commercial jet loaded w/ keorsene is exactly?
And exactly where do you get your metalurgical info? You and many other conspiracy groupies are completely misinformed about the properties of structural steel. I would not idiotically presume to know whether the events of 9/11 were conspiratorial. That's not the issue here, the issue is all these monkeys on the net purporting to know all about explosives and their effects on structural steel. I've yet to hear even one accurate statement in that regard. And yes, I have considerable expertise in high rise building technology, and considerable knowledge of the explosives industry. Structural steel, fyi, fails at a relatively low temperature, it does not need to 'vaporize' in order to fail structurally, it doesn't even need to get that hot,  nor would any steel vaporize save in the immediate viscinity of the explosion and even then only very thin sections would not survive a blast of the sort that was witnessed by us all. Heavy timber is actually more fire resistive than all but the heaviest sections of steel due to an insulating barrier of ash that develops in a fire. This is all common knowledge to anyone in the industry but forgive me for throwing out inconvenient fact.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

Name any enemy past or present that has ever treated American soldiers by anything like the Geneva Convention.

You can't do it.

Al-qaeda may cut our soldiers heads off quicker if they have more respect for them, that's it. Use sharper butter knives maybe.

We can't extend our constitutional rights to our enemies and still expect to win wars, that's just not realistic. We're far more humane than any enemy we've ever faced and that's still the case despite your senseless arguments to the contrary.

You want your head on a chopping block so you can prove we're better than them, but after you're dead they would rule the earth with the principles that killed yours.

So then, where would your principles be?

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ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Wow. Amazing how quickly we shit on our own ideals, the moment our security is challenged. The whole idea of  fast, fair trials... knowing who your accusers are, and what the specific charges are against you (heabeus corpus) has been tossed out the window. All you have to do is label people terrorists, and you can literally get away with torture and murder...

No, popeye is right, Al Queida is not a signatory to the Geneva Convention. You have to be a nation to do that, not a religious rabble. But we, the United States, ARE signed up to honor that agreement. The Bush administration just chose to break them. In doing so, he puts all of our men and women overseas in greater danger of inhuman treatment should they be captured.

I guess having principles like this is what makes us civilized, and puts us one step above the "goat-herders"... Personally, I'd rather the US go down fighting for what it believed in from the beginning... and not lower itself to the level of the terrorists.

After all, Bin Leiden was quoted that his intent was to make the US a shadow of it's former self.... looks like he's doing a heck of a job!

quote:

ORIGINAL: toothlessNsmelly

What on Earth do you think a commercial jet loaded w/ keorsene is exactly?
And exactly where do you get your metalurgical info? You and many other conspiracy groupies are completely misinformed about the properties of structural steel. I would not idiotically presume to know whether the events of 9/11 were conspiratorial. That's not the issue here, the issue is all these monkeys on the net purporting to know all about explosives and their effects on structural steel. I've yet to hear even one accurate statement in that regard. And yes, I have considerable expertise in high rise building technology, and considerable knowledge of the explosives industry. Structural steel, fyi, fails at a relatively low temperature, it does not need to 'vaporize' in order to fail structurally, it doesn't even need to get that hot,  nor would any steel vaporize save in the immediate viscinity of the explosion and even then only very thin sections would not survive a blast of the sort that was witnessed by us all. Heavy timber is actually more fire resistive than all but the heaviest sections of steel due to an insulating barrier of ash that develops in a fire. This is all common knowledge to anyone in the industry but forgive me for throwing out inconvenient fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

...Principles is what makes the difference in people, and if you sacrifice them for the supposed greater good, there is no difference between the evil we see, and the evil we become. When you sacrifice principles, you are killing the soul of what this country was founded on. Americans sacrificed their lives on principle to found this country, and it will take the sacrifice of American lives to keep our principles (and I do not mean war). Once we give up our liberties and principles, there are no defining characteristics that seperates the US from anyone else...

quote:

Terrorists and al qeada are not "law enforcement" issues they're Military issues. 

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ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

...Principles is what makes the difference in people, and if you sacrifice them for the supposed greater good, there is no difference between the evil we see, and the evil we become. When you sacrifice principles, you are killing the soul of what this country was founded on. Americans sacrificed their lives on principle to found this country, and it will take the sacrifice of American lives to keep our principles (and I do not mean war). Once we give up our liberties and principles, there are no defining characteristics that seperates the US from anyone else...

Indeed!

To me, just the fact alone that O'Reilly has the audacious nerve to call his show the No Spin Zone indicates that he can't be catering to a thinking audience. I mean really... it's so freaking obvious that he's a shill hatchet-man for the state worshipping, status-quo authoritanians, that the show crosses the borders of comedy.

Wouldn't it be fun to see someone of substance debate O'Reilly in a neutrally-controlled environment?