RE: Iams animal testing (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/19/2005 11:02:34 AM)

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Lots of questions, I don't have many answers.


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Or even worse - donor babies?

Not sure what you mean by this? I think surrogate mothers is a pretty good idea.


Sorry - I will try and explain.

Donor babies are not surrogate mothers or fertility babies. These are children, concieved onl because their older brother or sister has a genetic defect, or medical problem that means that they need an organ/bonemarrow/stemcells/blood... these will be harvested from the baby after its born - or when the child has reached a certain age - sometimes as young as two - without the childs consent, and then raised, knowing that it was concieved, not just out of love, but necessity.

Peace and Love



darkinshadows -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/19/2005 11:13:51 AM)

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I think it's a little funny to hear an argument about the ethics of wearing fur in a forum in which a large amount of people rely on leather products for toys, bondage equipment, and clothing.


Totally agree. Leather is just as bad as fur. There are products that can be used in replacing such items. These are easy to purchase via the net and stores. They have less impact on the environment as well as having no detrimental effects to animals welfare.

quote:

Who's fighting for the tuna?


Animal activists. Tuna is being over hunted and over killed - tons of wastage are thrown back by illegal fishing. This is both damaging to the enviroment and to the livlihood of genuine fishermen. Over fishing also is detrimental to fishing economy and causes more problems to genuine fishermen.

quote:

Why aren't these guys out boycotting diamond imports? (Want to see suffering? Look at the working conditions for a person in a diamond mine.) Why aren't these guys out fighting to help people live above the poverty line?


You will find, that most animal activists are also associated to poverty organisations. People who want to stop cruelty, want to stop all cruelty. Animal cruelty is closely linked to human poverty. You cannot fight one without the other. So saying that animal cruelty is less important, is a misleading thought.

Peace and Love



perverseangelic -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/19/2005 11:24:27 AM)


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ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

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And stem cells.


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Would rather use stem cells from aborted fetuses. To me, it's kinda like killing a cow for the hide and letting the meat go to waste. The fetus is dead. Use what of it you can. Though I feel this way about adult humans too.


I am not speaking specifically of an already dead fetus. I am suggesting a fetus grown specifically for medical experiments.

I personally would not use anything harvested from a fetus or human if it was taken without their consent.


I know you weren't. What I'm saying is that we already have a very viable option for getting stem cells. I think it's important to work on making that a legal (in the US) way to obtain stem cells. We've got the ability. I'd rather be active in workin on making it legal.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/19/2005 11:26:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
these will be harvested from the baby after its born - or when the child has reached a certain age - sometimes as young as two - without the childs consent, and then raised, knowing that it was concieved, not just out of love, but necessity.

Peace and Love

Well I think conceiving and birthing babies just to harvest their organs is pretty wrong.

To muddy the waters further, I am pro-abortion.

I believe animals should have rights and not be abused or neglected, but I don't believe they have the same status or rights as humans and should not be placed in the same category when considering ethical choices.

But I don't think it matters so much that the baby knows why it was conceived. Some babies know they were conceived from rape, some babies know they were conceived because birth control failed. While it might affect the person as they grow, I don't think it's nothing a nurturing support network can't deal with just fine.



perverseangelic -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/19/2005 11:33:34 AM)


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ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I don't even buy products from gap second hand.
What has suffered, already suffered. What and who have died, already dead.
The blood is already there and stained. Thinking that because its a second, relinquishes one from the pain in the past is irrelavant. Beside, tax is still being earned in most cases for your governement, which is again a tax on what has been murdered or lost(be it workshops and slave labour).

There are many alternatives to fake fur, and ok - so it might not be exactly the same and if you can live with the fact that something has been killed - no matter how humanely - then thats your choice. And its my choice not to be impressed by it or feel any kind of respect towards a person for doing such an act.

Really meaning no offense to you perverse - I think you are great - and your posts are fantastic - but using fur IMO is just wrong.

Peace and Love[/center][/size][/font]


Thing is, used products don't go into the GDP. They don't encourage the production of -anything-.

I can't see an item itself as tainted. I can see the industry that made it as tainted, definatly, and choose not to support an industry that causes harm.

However, buying used products does the exact opposite. It reduces the support given to the garment industry, the cloth industry and the fur industry by using products that don't contribute to their income.

In buying used clothing, I am choosing to NOT spend money on new clothing. I am giving money to the SPCA (who runs our local thrift store) NOT to the clothing production companies that made the clothes in the begining. Regardless as to the brands I buy used, I am not supporting the companies that makes them. In fact, I'm completely outside of the cycle.

By buying used clothing of -any- type, I avoid putting money into companies using sweatshops, and exploiting workers.

I think of it this way--I buy a Gap sweatshirt at the thrifstore. Gap never sees a cent of my money, the SPCA gets some good, and because I don't buy products with brand names on them, no one knows what I'm wearing.

I buy a new shirt, at any of the stores I have access to. I give money to the corporation who sold it to me, funding an organization that manufactures in non-industrial countries, pollutes the enviorment, and treats its workers like crap.

I buy fabric to make my own shirt. I -still- give money to a company that is messing w/ the enviorment and its workers.

Used clothes are removed from that cycle. Used clothing, I could say, -removes- suffering form the world because for ever peice of used clothing bought, a peice of sweat-shop produced stuff stays on the shelves.

(and hey, I don't get offended at disagreements:) I mean, we're bound to have different opinions.)



kyakitten -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/19/2005 12:06:17 PM)

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darkinshadows -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/19/2005 12:34:40 PM)

I do agree that purchasing from thrift is a great way of buying full stop. However, I can only say from experience in the UK - only chariety organisations do not pay tax - most second hand/thrift stores in the UK still do - so maybe we are just coming up against a different set of locality differences.

But it still comes down to the same thing. Wear Gap, FCUK, adidas or any other branded make - you are still running the obsession. Others dont know what you wear is a second - and yes, I agree your not responsible for everyone else. But it still perpetuates the myth - like second hand fur.

I would much rather give my money to a local producer, or to an organisation who supports ends to poverty than buy from Next - in another thread a while back, I joked about blaniks - yes I may covert their beauty, but my conscence and knowledge would hold me back from purchasing such items.

Peace and Love



darkinshadows -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/19/2005 12:43:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
these will be harvested from the baby after its born - or when the child has reached a certain age - sometimes as young as two - without the childs consent, and then raised, knowing that it was concieved, not just out of love, but necessity.

Peace and Love

Well I think conceiving and birthing babies just to harvest their organs is pretty wrong.

To muddy the waters further, I am pro-abortion.

I believe animals should have rights and not be abused or neglected, but I don't believe they have the same status or rights as humans and should not be placed in the same category when considering ethical choices.

But I don't think it matters so much that the baby knows why it was conceived. Some babies know they were conceived from rape, some babies know they were conceived because birth control failed. While it might affect the person as they grow, I don't think it's nothing a nurturing support network can't deal with just fine.


I am not pro-abortion persay - but I am pro-choice. I am not naive enough to not realise there are circumstances I could never comprehend.

I think your right about the babies conception - If the support network is available - it is possible for people to grow and deal. But I still do not think it right to have a child born - to put it through horrid procedures like bone marrow transplants or intensive blood exchanges - to heal its sibling - without the childs prior consent. No matter how much that child may still be loved by its parent.

I also think that animals should be treated with respect, even if that may equalise them to humans.
I am also well aware that animals come and go - and that is evolution. I think it could be quite wrong to conserve a species that could be naturally becoming extinct, as it may effect the balance of nature.

Peace and Love



perverseangelic -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/19/2005 2:02:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
I do agree that purchasing from thrift is a great way of buying full stop. However, I can only say from experience in the UK - only chariety organisations do not pay tax - most second hand/thrift stores in the UK still do - so maybe we are just coming up against a different set of locality differences.


The thrift stores I frequent are almost exclusivly charity ones. (Salvation Army, Goodwill, SPCA).

quote:


But it still comes down to the same thing. Wear Gap, FCUK, adidas or any other branded make - you are still running the obsession. Others dont know what you wear is a second - and yes, I agree your not responsible for everyone else. But it still perpetuates the myth - like second hand fur.


I'm working under the assumption that the clothing doesn't hvae visible branding. That is, you couldn't look at it and say "oh, that's a gap shirt." I mean, I would NEVER wear a shirt with a brand visible on it, for esthetic reasons as much as my lack of support.

I should have clarified that to start. I'm takling about pants or shirts that were made by/for Gap, but DO NOT say "Gap" on them anywhere visible. Becuase I -had- thought abuot the effect of that. Regardless as to where I got the shirt, it still LOOKS like I got it at Gap. Not interested in projecting that image.




FangsNfeet -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/19/2005 9:09:54 PM)

quote:


Re: Problems with hunting.

I don't get it. I find hunting to be one of the -best- ways to get meat. Partially because it makes the hunter deal with the fact that he/she is eating a formerly living thing.

When I was young, my parents took my sister and I to the fair to buy a cow. We bought it at auction. I got to meet and pet the cow. They then took us to the slaughterhouse to watch the steps that turned cow into meat. We didn't watch the killing (I was maybe....8 or 9 at the time) but we did see the dead cow, and dead cow parts.


I was born with a God given pair of canines. I dare not to use them for mere vegies and tofu. That would be an insult to my animalistic traits and knock me down a step on the food chain. After all, Carnivors eat Herbivors. If it dosen't bleed, why eat it? I am a carnivor who eats the flesh of other living creatures for protien and nurishment. It's the health and natural way our bodies where made. Vegies and carbs are good in moderation but it's the protien and fatty amino acids that keep us and our sex drives going and staying to the fullest.

As for my cow stories, well I have several. My Grandparents own 120 of land where they use to raise charlets keeping the numbers around 200 at any given time. In the cases where a cow was getting to old to have calfs and the price of beef was not doing so well, we'd have our own barbeque. We never deep fried an entire cow like in the show Aqua Teen Hunger Force but it was always tempting. Other than that, my ex step dad use to own a meat strore where since the age of 6, I would help gut and skin many of the cows and deers that people brought in for processing.

Deer processing was funny though. One day during the hollidays, a hunter brings in a dead deer with blood dripping from the nose. My little brother age 4 at the time seen it and began crying "You killed Rudolf, you killed Rudolf" The hunter felt bad after that and he didn't hunt again for the rest of the season.



nonuts4thshoney -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/20/2005 12:08:23 AM)

i feed my dogs Natural Balance. It's a good dog food and they love it. There are no bi-products at all.

Natural Balance



mistoferin -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/20/2005 3:56:46 AM)

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Could you please clarify this statement? What exactly does this mean? For food? A new shirt or jacket? Tattoo purses? What kind of human products do you think it would be acceptable to sell and use?

All of the above and more. Whatever useful things that could come from human bodies.


This has to be the most disturbing thing I have heard you say. Is anything sacred?



pinkpleasures -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/20/2005 6:38:26 AM)

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smilezz, I couldn't have said it better myself, thank you!

cello

PS... I wish you could see my knife... I paid way too much for it but it's sooooo pretty!

cellogrrrlMK


cello, what kind of knife did ya get? switchblade? what color handle?

pinkpleasures



pinkpleasures -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/20/2005 6:49:12 AM)

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There's a convincing argument to be made that animal rights extremists are what make the animal welfare movement's demands look "reasonable" and middle-ground. I for one am grateful PETA exists even though I often disagree with their tactics or views.

Liana


In my opinion, the stunts and misrepresentations PETA has engaged in have rendered them totally useless to main stream animal rights' advocates. You cannot successfully debate from a position based on lies.

It might interest people to know that the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (or its forerunner) brought the first child abuse case in the nation, arguing successfully that children should be treated at least as well as an animal. As far as i know, the ASPCA has never deviated from its mission to protect animals and i would contribute time/money/etc. to them if i wanted to advance the cause of animal rights.

http://www.aspca.org/site/FrameSet?style=Animal

pinkpleasures



pinkpleasures -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/20/2005 6:58:38 AM)

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I make my own food for both my cats and my dog.
It started when my puppy was poisoned and now has a serious liver disorder. She needs very specific foods and it is easier cheaper and safer to just make my own for her.

quietkitten


People who are cruel to animals are doomed to go to hell after they die, in my opinion. There is something about deliberating harming an animal for sport or to save money or for insurance money that cries out "this is pure, unadulterated evil".

pinkpleasures



kry -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/20/2005 7:12:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

In my opinion, the stunts and misrepresentations PETA has engaged in have rendered them totally useless to main stream animal rights' advocates. You cannot successfully debate from a position based on lies.

pinkpleasures


I agree completely. Has anyone else seen the Penn and Teller show on PETA?



pinkpleasures -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/20/2005 7:19:13 AM)

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I agree...that is pretty cold, pink. Humans are just animals and not deserving of any special status or treatment in this world. A suffering human baby is no more or less deplorable than a suffering cat...or horse...or pig. We, as humans, might ascribe more importance to the suffering baby, but that significance is not intrinsic; it is significant because we decide it is.

Bob


i oppose cruelty to animals and am especially p**sed off that cruelty crimes are not felonies and the perpetrators are not sent to state prisions and made to serve hard time with long sentences.

But if You cannot see the human baby should be saved before an animal, as a mother, i am a bit angry myself.

pinkpleasures



Mandalin -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/20/2005 7:37:35 AM)

I thought I'd just share this reply to an e-mail I sent to Peta...
Shortly after I sent this email, I happened to find the website for the Swiss Animals Protection/East Internationals, and figured out that they actually filmed the video as she states below....I think my next question for them, is why would they take the credit and put their name on this video????? That might be called disorting the truth a little....hmmm, maybe to make more money from donations? But they have nothing to gain financially...like she said.






Dear Sally,

Thank you for your e-mail to PETA about our videos.

In 25 years of investigations, PETA has never doctored a video, and we never will. The facts are so horrific that they speak for themselves, and unlike the meat and fur industries, PETA has nothing to gain from distorting the truth.

First, the video of raccoons being skinned alive was not even filmed by PETA. This video of the Chinese fur farms was filmed by an animal rights organization based in Switzerland called Swiss Animals Protection/EAST International. This group went undercover and filmed the footage at fur farms when touring China's Hebei Province. This is explained in detail on our Web site at http://www.furisdead.com/feat/ChineseFurFarms.

Sadly, the facts of animal abuse are so horrific, there’s no need to exaggerate or distort. And PETA has nothing to gain financially from distorting the truth--but those who make money from harming animals certainly do.

I hope this helps to answer your question. Thanks again for your e-mail.

Sincerely,

Elizabeth Collins
PETA Correspondent




-----Original Message-----
From: Sally
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 3:15 AM
To: info
Subject: Questioning your work









DesertRat -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/20/2005 7:43:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

quote:

I agree...that is pretty cold, pink. Humans are just animals and not deserving of any special status or treatment in this world. A suffering human baby is no more or less deplorable than a suffering cat...or horse...or pig. We, as humans, might ascribe more importance to the suffering baby, but that significance is not intrinsic; it is significant because we decide it is.

Bob


i oppose cruelty to animals and am especially p**sed off that cruelty crimes are not felonies and the perpetrators are not sent to state prisions and made to serve hard time with long sentences.

But if You cannot see the human baby should be saved before an animal, as a mother, i am a bit angry myself.

pinkpleasures


As humans, we are naturally biased in favor of ourselves so we're gonna favor the human baby over the animal. My point was just that there is no objective basis for that. Humans aren't intrinsically more valuable or important than other creatures. We just think we are.

Go ahead and be angry...all my mink friends are pretty pissed at you, too. *winks*

Bob



cellogrrlMK -> RE: Iams animal testing (8/20/2005 8:08:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

cello, what kind of knife did ya get? switchblade? what color handle?

pinkpleasures


It's steel, all kinds of irridescent colors, looks and a acts like a switchblade to me, but the guy I got it from said it's not an actual switchblade, as they are illegal and he would have been put in jail for selling one. I had asked him for one actually, to replace mine that had been lost when I lost my bag last October. Ah well... it's pretty and does the jobs I need it for. [:)]

cello



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