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W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/8/2007 7:48:47 PM   
subhub2b


Posts: 6
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline 		Hello all,

I have an honest question - one that has plagued me for a long time and so I am hopeful that someone can help me understand.  I genuinely do not wish to offend anyone with this post and really appreciate any responses.  OK, here goes...

I recognize that most, if not all, Dommes have a "sadistic thirst" burning inside them and that it is our job as subs to quench that thirst.  I also recognize the need for discipline and the value of punishment. 

Having said that, I am hopeful that someone can help me understand true sadism and by that I mean "torture for pleasure". 

When my last relationship ended, I realized that my rationale for staying and absorbing the ever-increasing abuse sounded an awful lot like someone suffering from "battered spouse syndrome" and that blew me away because it is the absolute antithesis of who I am in my day to day life. 

So, that leaves me with 3 related questions:
1)  Why, when no punishment is necessary or warranted, did we spend so much time in torture sessions?
2)  Why is the severity of my pain, and at times injury, directly related to the degree of pleasure she gets from inflicting it?
3)  How can I love a sadist and at the same time regard sadism as an extremely unattractive personality trait?

Again, if my questions have offended anyone, I sincerely apologize.  I am not in any way casting judgement upon anyone who may enjoy S&M.  I am simply trying to understand the inner conflict I have between my need for a female-led relationship and my firm belief that self-respect and submission are not mutually exclusive.

Sorry to be so verbose and thanks again for any replies.

Very sincerely & respectfully,
Mike
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/8/2007 7:54:46 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		subhub,
 
Sadism just isn't everyone's cup of tea... and it doesn't have to be.  Many new Dommes (and myself included when I started out) thought that to be a really TRUE domme..you had to do the sadism thing. It never was "me:. The funny thing though- my sub though that to be a TRUE sub, he had to receive the sadistic activities.. when he really didn't enjoy it either.

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to subhub2b)
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RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/8/2007 7:55:09 PM   
UBERMUNSCHIST


Posts: 116
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline 		In response to your third question.

Only you can answer this question.

< Message edited by UBERMUNSCHIST -- 12/8/2007 8:26:59 PM >

(in reply to subhub2b)
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RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/8/2007 8:01:43 PM   
azropedntied


Posts: 1829
Joined: 7/25/2005
From: Phx AZ
Status: offline 		Its not always about you - and  what you may call torture pain sessions she would call a great time  as would others .Maybe you need a more compatable partner for  exchanges  also  more  communications .

(in reply to UBERMUNSCHIST)
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RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/8/2007 8:03:52 PM   
UBERMUNSCHIST


Posts: 116
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

subhub,
 
Sadism just isn't everyone's cup of tea... and it doesn't have to be.  Many new Dommes (and myself included when I started out) thought that to be a really TRUE domme..you had to do the sadism thing. It never was "me:. The funny thing though- my sub though that to be a TRUE sub, he had to receive the sadistic activities.. when he really didn't enjoy it either.


True.

Also, sadomasochism doesn't necessarily have anything to do with either dominance or submission.

subhub2b,  the best thing that you can do is know yourself, and let everything else fall into place.

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/8/2007 8:04:11 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		welcome subhub2b, I'm not sure how long you've been in the lifestyle, but it's not uncommon for people to struggle with their submission or even dominance at first or even at times when they've been in it for awhile.  Is that the case or just a bad match?   Although it's a bit more difficult for male subs because of the numbers game you can pick a partner that's more compatible with your interests and limits.

good luck!

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to subhub2b)
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RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/8/2007 8:08:51 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		1st, stop apologizing for the questions you have. You're allowed to ask whatever questions you wish...although, intelligent and thoughtful ones like these are given a better reception.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subhub2b
So, that leaves me with 3 related questions:
1)  Why, when no punishment is necessary or warranted, did we spend so much time in torture sessions?
2)  Why is the severity of my pain, and at times injury, directly related to the degree of pleasure she gets from inflicting it?
3)  How can I love a sadist and at the same time regard sadism as an extremely unattractive personality trait?


1) This is the problem I have with the notion of "punishment". The SM I do with my slave(s) is done, usually, because we both like it. There are times, however, were I do it and they simply endure. That's for my pleasure. It has nothing to do with punishment.

2) Because that's the definition of a sadist. We derive pleasure from inflicting pain. What makes our relationships differ from an abusive on is that our partners CONSENT to this. It is up to our partners to maintain their mental healthy in such a way that they are truly consenting to this because they want to, not because they are victims.

3) It depends on how you are defining each.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to subhub2b)
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RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/8/2007 8:43:55 PM   
subhub2b


Posts: 6
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you all for the quick responses.  Five years ago I vowed to never again have a vanilla relationship but I readily admit my D/s experience since that time is unfortunately limited.  I did actully discuss this with my Ex at the very beginning of our relationship but to tell the truth I didn't really feel comfortable giving limits....probably a foolish move on my part.  When I told her I wasn't a masochist, she said, "Oh, that's OK, you will be."   :)

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
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RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/8/2007 8:59:20 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Not everyone is a masochist, and some folks never will be.  The ones who are most interested in pleasing their dominants learn to endure, I suspect.  For myself, someone just putting up with it for my sake wouldn't do it.  I am a heavy sadist, and I need a serious masochist. 

There are many dominants out there who are NOT sadists.  Here let me clarify by saying that when we say we are sadists, the descriptor "consensual" is always assumed.  I adore leaving welts on my playmates;  I am not entertained by the random pain of those in accidents, nor would I drag some stranger in off the street for a "torture session". 

Negotiation is a part of all relationships, but in D/s and BDSM relationships, that negotiation is often more explicit.  If you are truly not enjoying what is happening to you, it is on you to speak up. 

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to subhub2b)
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RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/9/2007 1:35:49 AM   
MasterIconoclast


Posts: 47
Joined: 11/18/2005
Status: offline 		Dear subhub,

In any kind of relationship, both partners endure things. . . for the sake of the relationship.  It's so much simpler with the casual meets and beats where you can walk away from one another.   It is very hard (even for a Dominant) to live with someone who is unhappy or whom you know have made unhappy for one reason or another. 

I'm not going to give you advice on open communication and knowing yourself, blah, blah, blah, about the definition of torture and pleasure, blah blah blah..

Was it a loving and respectful relationship?  Was it SANE and consensual?

Everyone has their limits.  I thought I was a self aware and grounded Master.  I entered into a dysfuntinal relationship as well where the other person, I would find out, is a boarderline schizophrenic.  The mind games that went on there. . . I believed that I did what I could to be a responsible Domina, a responsible partner/significant other, and I really, really tried because I believed in "giving it my all."  It was the way I was wired.  I am Dominant. I take responsibility.  I will try to fix it.  There's a lot of flaw in that logic, I know that now.

You can't do give your all to unstable people.  It doesn't mean anything to them.  I got "my boy" back into school, found him a really good job through my friends, cleaned him up, became the go-between for his shrinks and his family but in the end, I was accused of abusing him.  I wasn't letting him be "happy" because "that other guy" (the crazy side) had some traits that he liked.  We were playing two completely different games.  I was trying to build a loving D/s lifestyle while he was listening to the voices in his head.  It got pretty dysfunctional.

Having said that, I identified as a Sadist.  My source of pleasure was in watching a boy suffer but here's the catch: I liked it most when the sub enjoys it.  Even when it was an act that he did not like, I like that he knew that he was making me happy by enduring it and I appreciate him more for it.  That was my idea of D/s.  Being told by my sub that he is enduring going to work and bathing is not my idea of sadistic fun.  That was torture for me. 

From your profile, you present yourself as someone who is looking for a lifemate.  Look for a lifemate who is compatible with you and who has your well being at heart and whom you know you can make happy.  It is my personal opinion that submissive types tend to be just a little bit codependent.  I don't see it as a flaw unless it detracts from fulfilling activites of daily living.  I think it's needed in someone to develop the kind of devotion a submissive has for his Owner but I thought I knew this.  The harsh lesson I learned is that there is difference between a little character trait and full out psychosis.  It works the other way around where an aggressive/strong  personality is nice for a Master but a full out OCD control freak isn't so cute.

If you are not looking to change your ideas about endurance for the sake of your Domina, then change to whom it is that you are giving it to.  Something wasn't right.

Master Iconoclast (until the end of this month)

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/9/2007 4:21:51 AM   
rubberpet


Posts: 1743
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: The Land of Voodoo
Status: offline 		Mistress is a sadist Herself, but since She knows it's not my thing, She's willing to back off on it a bit for me.  I have a high threshold of pain, but I'm just not a masochist.  But I will endure some pain or discomfort for Her because I know She won't do anything to harm me.  She likes it, and if She's willing to do things that I really enjoy, it is not a fair trade if She's doing all my little kinks, but I can't endure a good flogging from Her or lay there and be Her chew toy (She loves to bite).  I want to be valuable to Her, so I endure as much as I can for Her.  Sometimes, being a submissive means doing something that is not your cup of tea strictly for your domme.  It's a two way street...it goes both ways and everyone needs to get something out of it. 

To answer your three questions is quite easy.  1.)  In my opinion, a sadist gets off on causing pain or discomfort to someone who is willing to accept it, but it's even better when that person enjoys it.  That is what fuels their need.  2.)  See answer #1.  3.)  If you and her are willing to sit down and discuss limits and how much you can take, maybe She can tone things down to the point where you can handle her torture and she's still getting what she needs.  Just find that happy medium.

I hope that helps.

_____________________________

Collared and devoted property of Mistress Lorelei (vampchick88) as of 3/26/08.

Rubberpet - The Resident Anti-Subby and mysterious shadowy figure known as Voodoo, proud hitman and wiseguy for the Subby Mafia.


(in reply to MasterIconoclast)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/9/2007 8:16:36 AM   
Dari


Posts: 192
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		There are different levels of sadism, too.

I am a sadist, absolutely and completely - in a physical sense.  I love hurting my partners, I love leaving marks, I love listening to them whimper and whine and beg for mercy.  It totally does it for me.  mmmm.  And - my desire to hurt someone is directly proportional to their desire to be hurt.  So I find myself hurting my painslut a lot more than I hurt my pet, because while both like pain, the levels desired are highly different.

On the flip side, my sadism does not extend to emotional pain.  Oh, the random mindfuck, sure - but something that actually causes them emotional pain or anguish?  No thank you.  I like to know that underneath the physical pain, we're all happy and having a good time together.  Even when they're crying, I know that when it's all done, I'm going to get a smile and a "thank you," and it will be meant.

Don't confuse sadism with abuse.  Not all of us are abusers, really!!!

That being said - if you're not into masochism, then find a Domme who isn't into sadism.  It's perfectly possible to be Dominant without ever picking up a flogger.

(in reply to rubberpet)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/9/2007 8:27:08 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I don't personally think it is the job of a submissive to do SM with a sadistic dominant; I'd say it is the job of a slave however.

This means that each of us needs to be careful with the boundaries and limits we negotiate and the how the authority will function.

Abusive people are very skilled at pretending to be one thing and then slowly turning into their real selfs. That's why you stayed, subhub2b. It happened so slowly with a repeated mantra of it being your job that you didn't realize what was happening. You did the right thing by getting out. I think it's harder for men to do that in our society because it is so unexpected and I think our community (both vanilla and kinky) are seriously lacking for men in abusive or escaping abusive relationships.

Anyway, curb your desires and attraction for sadists and next time take a longer time to get to know someone. Have friends you can talk to so you can get a sense if things start to go down that same road. Sadly those of us who have survived abuse can find ourselves in those same situations easily unless we do some radically different things like get help, build a network of support and take a lot more time to get to know someone.

Someone worth having as your dominant will be supportive with all these things.

You may also discover that you start to attract and be attracted to other survivors and then you have to be each other's support system. Unfortunately this does not mean that one or both of you can't become abusive so you have to watch your own emotions too. This is the case with Fox and I and one reason why we have family therapy once a month and scheduled check-ins when we step out of DS space to make sure things are ok with each other.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 12/9/2007 8:29:44 AM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to subhub2b)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/9/2007 9:23:37 AM   
subhub2b


Posts: 6
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you for the wise words - very helpful.

I guess I should mention that 'endurance' and 'sacrifice' are not my issues.  That is, while not necessarily the "easy" part, it is at least the easy part to understand.  I endured whatever she required of me and sacrificed whatever was necessary to please her.  I'm good with that.  I managed my way through those situations by constantly reminding myself that it was a test of devotion. 

But if I am to be completely honest now in retrospect, I don't believe for a second that it was in fact a test of devotion.  She simply got off on watching me suffer.  Huge difference there...and that is precisely the part that I can't seem to wrap my head around.  I would prefer to never again walk into a hospital and have to awkwardly explain the circumstances that lead up to a particular injury.

A rabbit walks freely into the lion's cage with every opportunity to escape but instead asks the lion, "what's for dinner?"

I am honestly curious here and respectfully ask anyone who identifies herself as a sadist, is it an endorphine rush?  A sense of control?  When you have reduced a sub to proverbial mush, clearly pushed well past a particular limit or pain threshold and yet continue to push forward, what are you feeling?  What are you thinking?  When do you know its time to ease up?

Thanks again.

(in reply to rubberpet)
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RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/9/2007 10:00:41 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		It is absolutely a power trip.  No endorphins involved!  That sense of control, willingly given to me, well...the ultimate aphrodisiac!

I enjoy pushing limits, but I doubt I would mush someone out and keep on going...what would be the point?  Once they're unconscious, they stop responding! (joking.  a little!)  As to when it's time to ease up, that differs with each person.  Even an ubermasochist can have a bad day.  A person's ability to handle pain changes, and as the top/dom it's my job to keep an eye on how they are reacting.

I am happy to say that after many years of play, I have NEVER needed anything more than a bandaid and some bruise treatments for my playmates.  Yes, that could change, but if I do end up in the ER, it will not be because of my lack of attention or incompetence. 

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/9/2007 10:47:45 AM   
Dari


Posts: 192
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		It's a total power trip.  I love the power, I love the control.  The sounds my subs make that are wrested from them?  Yeah.

That being said, if I land a sub in the ER, then I'm going to seriously question my abilities as a dominant.  If I hurt them and we're enjoying it, that's a happy thing.  If I hurt them to a point where they need care from a medical professional - that's beyond MY limits, and I prefer never to do that.  To me, unless both parties are into that sort of thing (and I know there are people on both sides of the dynamic that like it), then it's abuse.  It's not kink, it's not part of the D/s relationship - it's just abuse.


(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/9/2007 11:29:28 AM   
Elorin


Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subhub2b
I am honestly curious here and respectfully ask anyone who identifies herself as a sadist, is it an endorphine rush?  A sense of control?  When you have reduced a sub to proverbial mush, clearly pushed well past a particular limit or pain threshold and yet continue to push forward, what are you feeling?  What are you thinking?  When do you know its time to ease up?

Yes, causing pain and connecting with a submissive can be an endorphin rush, when the connection is there. Other times it is a highly focused, intense feeling as though I am zeroing in on one thing in particular - the bottom I am playing with, their reactions, their body.
I get a sense of control, certainly, when I know that I can hurt someone. But I also feel a treasuring sense of trust and love when someone offers their body to me and says "you can hurt me. Not just in ways that I like, but in ways that I don't like. You can make me not like it." That just fires ALL of my rockets. WOW...to be trusted that fully feels like my head and soul and ego are just inflating.
As for pushing someone past a pain threshhold and continuing? I don't do that. I watch my partners closely, and my goal is not to break them, not to push past their limits. More to nudge their limits, make them want to go higher, further, harder, more intense with me again, because each session means more trust built between us two. I want my play partner to WANT me to hurt them another time. Not out of masochism, but out of a desire to be pleasing, out of knowing I will walk with them through the entire process, even if they are accidentally injured.
I don't always know when it's time to ease up - that's what safe words are for. For myself, I ease up when I feel I"ve reached a crescendo, a climax, and it is time for the conclusion. It is simply a ramping up of intensity that seems to peak within me, and then I slow down. I have rarely been told that I pushed too far, too hard, or too long with a bottom.

_____________________________

'cause when i look down /i just miss all the good stuff / when i look up / i just trip over things

(in reply to subhub2b)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/9/2007 7:46:32 PM   
Lureaetagg


Posts: 24
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline 		I actually do not have a sadistic streak. I do punish my subs when they are in trouble but I get no enjoyment out of hurting my subs. I feel like I shouldn't have to waste my time hurting him in physical ways. Not to say I won't, I just get no sexual enjoyment from the act.
So, there are a few Dommes out there who don't have a sadistic streak

_____________________________

I am swift darkness taking over your world.

(in reply to Elorin)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/10/2007 12:37:06 AM   
UBERMUNSCHIST


Posts: 116
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Negotiation is a part of all relationships, but in D/s and BDSM relationships, that negotiation is often more explicit.  If you are truly not enjoying what is happening to you, it is on you to speak up. 


(This isn't a serious question:)

What if I don't want to enjoy what is happening to me?

< Message edited by UBERMUNSCHIST -- 12/10/2007 12:39:50 AM >

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: W...w...what are you gonna do to me with THAT thing?? - 12/10/2007 12:48:57 AM   
JulieorSarah


Posts: 552
Joined: 8/25/2007
Status: offline 		A view point from a female sub

So, that leaves me with 3 related questions:
1)  Why, when no punishment is necessary or warranted, did we spend so much time in torture sessions?
my drive is to please him, within my boundaries, we work together to stretch/push thouse boundaries, the punishment does not have to be torture.
i can withdraw my consent at anytime with the use of a safeword.  I try to tolerate many things, but not for long.
just as some people tolerate their partners friends relations, workmates - I know what i'd rather tolerate!

2)  Why is the severity of my pain, and at times injury, directly related to the degree of pleasure she gets from inflicting it?
If you view it as pain, i don't think you should be in that position/role.  And if there is longterm injury - what do you get out of it?  it needs to be a two way street.
3)  How can I love a sadist and at the same time regard sadism as an extremely unattractive personality trait?
You may need to rethink what you are seeking, is it a dominant female sadist or a dominant female?

I like to be controlled, used - not necessarily sexually, i like to serve his needs - some quite minor i like him in charge.  But i'm not a whipping post, nor a dormat - unless i offer it ... and oh yes he takes up the offer ...


< Message edited by JulieorSarah -- 12/10/2007 12:52:26 AM >

(in reply to UBERMUNSCHIST)
Profile   Post #: 20
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