RE: What to do when you don't like what you do.

RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (Full Version)

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Heartisan -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/14/2007 9:31:59 PM)
Maybe you should try talking to people who have been through what you have been through, and are now happily submissive and find out why they are submissive. But here is my two cents. Submission is NOT weakness, in fact, it's just the opposite. You know already how hard it is, and how it feels to want that and not understand it.. imagine the strength it has taken most of us to overcome that, and find the strength to admit and accept who we are and love ourselves for it. It is giving up that hard tight ingrained control of ourselves, our emotions, our lives, our brains our hearts, our fantasies, etc. that is the reason when we do accept it and submit, it is incredibly freeing. Finding the right Dominant you can trust to do that is a different thing, it takes a lot of trust, but once that trust is found, and developed, the process of accepting it and relaxing becomes much easier. I would suggest finding something to trigger the conversation. Exit to Eden is a good movie to do that with. The submissive in the movie (Elliot) has a desire for something he feels is wrong, but once shown the pleasure of it, and in safety, he is able to accept it. But, the movie is really a comedy so it's light, but might be able to give you a way to discuss it with your husband. You might be surprised. I've heard lots and LOTS of stories of couples who were vanilla for many years, come to find out they both had an interest or curiosity, but couldn't bring themselves to tell their partner. Find a comfortable way to do it, and do it slowly and then maybe together you can figure the rest out in time. Don't rush it either, things happen in their own time... but it's worth the wait, believe me.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/14/2007 9:42:37 PM)
Submission has nothing to do with weakness or strength- there's plenty of pathetic weak subs out there making horrible stupid choices every day.

laurell3 -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/14/2007 10:18:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Submission has nothing to do with weakness or strength- there's plenty of pathetic weak subs out there making horrible stupid choices every day. Agreed and more importantly the OP's example of being submissive in everyday life is not usually applicable to roles in the lifestyle. OP there have been other threads in the past about the dichotomy of our roles and our vanilla life and it's quite amazing how different they can be. I have a very assertive, even agressive career. People that know me in that world would laugh if someone told them what I do in the lifestyle, I think it would take alot for them to actually believe it was possible. But I don't really think I believe that's the issue anymore. I think you are afraid and many of us were too and that's ok. Your vision of never being weak, your reluctance to seek help...they speak volumes of the image you think you need to portray. Guess what? You can chose not to embrace this part of you and you are still at times going to be weak, afraid, scared, hurt and imperfect. We all are, it's part of being human. However, your vision of weakness is inaccurate. Giving up all of society's rules and taking a different role isn't weak, far from it. Being brave enough to embrace who we are even when it's different than most isn't weak, far from it. Being bold enough to do something daring with someone you care about and trust isn't weak, far from it. Being strong enough to say I will do what you ask of me for you isn't weak in fact it's not easy and it's incredibly challenging at times for many. The final thing I want to point out to you is that the idea that submissives just say "yes sir" to anything is hardly the truth, although there are plenty on the personals side that will tell you that "true subs" must do just that. Most submissives are not meek and are very active participants in negotiating their relationship structure and activities. Being submissive does NOT mean being what someone else wants you to be, it means being able to be you and enjoy and embrace it. THAT takes strength.

Noah -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/14/2007 10:21:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan First, if you must address me in such an overly familiar manner, it's Ms. ap Leanan. It's similar to addressing a man with the last name of O'Connor as Mr. O'Conner rather than Conner. Please have the courtesy to get my name right. Oh for heaven's sake... I apologize. But now what if you had turned out to be someone who found "Ms." an insulting term in that it fails to recognize and honor a woman's marital status? I suppose I would have been rude for using Ms. Is that an uncommon opinion about "Ms."? Probably, but not unheard of. And you strike me as an uncommon person. Perhaps I've been hasty. Speaking of uncommon, in what culture does Ap serve comparably to the O' in Irish names? I've never run into it. By the way, please feel free to call me No, or ah, or Sid O'Swordandsorcerynovel if it floats your boat. Anyhow, IMO there are good lessons to be taken from the Original Poster. When I look between the lines of her posts here I read a frank willingness to expose her own vulnerability in the exploration of some ideas (and feeling) she was interested in but wasn't comfortable with. I found that admirable--far from objectionable--from the start. Also admirable was the deft way she responded to the substance rather than the presumption and vitriol in certain responses to her. quote: Second, what part of "IMO" and "YMMV" was unclear to you? The OP may take or leave my views in whole or in part as she sees fit. Whether or not you agree with them is irrelevant. Are you aware that if IMO the moon is made of green cheese then my O is wrong? ... and that your O can be be just as wrong? ... and that it is entirely relevant for someone to point that out?

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/14/2007 10:21:44 PM)
I agree that making the choice to be true to yourself and following through with that is pretty much the hardest thing to do. I disagree that it has anything to do with society's rules- though it can appear to be easier on the surface to "go along with the crowd" just think about how hard it is in the kinky world to be boring and live just like a vanilla person.

Noah -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/14/2007 10:44:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BondageSlaveMN Hi SlaveMN, quote: Who attributes mystical powers to therapist? I only attribute a special respect to therapists with PhD's and and they certainly aren't magical, they just had the devotion to make it through a lot of school. If you don't attribute said magical powers then my comments weren't about you. I can respect the effort invested in getting a PhD too. quote: Furthermore, there is a veritable plethora of poor therapists that should never be allowed contact with a patient. I wouldn't be surprised if this were true. What I find silly is the notion expressed by some that there are important things a human being can accomplish with a therapist which things a human being cannot accomplish otherwise. quote: I agree with your statement that therapy is not necessary to change your psychological make-up, but I disagree with the way you represented this information. This is tantamount to how Michael Moore presents his “truths” to the public. I might agree with some of his points, but I cannot find him credible due to the way he presents his views and twists information. Interesting. quote: People can change. They just don't usually. I've found that it takes quite a serious threat for someone to change themselves. Most people claim to have changed, but they are really just the same person with different manifestations. I take "changed person" to mean precisely: "same person with different (something or other)". If your notion of "changed person" has to do with becoming someone else altogether, well, I don't even know what that would entail or look like. quote: I am not saying people cannot and have not changed, I'm just saying that it's extremely rare. And to do so without the aide of a professional is even more difficult. It would take someone who is extremely introspective and observant to accomplish such a task. How about someone who was moderately introspective but open to examining preconceptions as such, perhaps with a willingness to listen to the helpful insightful comments of caring, intimate friends and a further willingness to try new behaviors? Plus courage. I suspect that changing in this situation might be even easier than doing so with a stranger paid to help. But of course my O might be wrong. quote: I think it unwise to simply dismiss therapists as sophisticated magicians in guise. There is a lot of wisdom in modern psychology. While I don't view it as a particularly justifiable science, I cannot deny that the tenets of psychology have very real and useful applications. I hope you didn't read me as dismissing therapists as magicians in disguise. I wasn't dismissing them at all. I was criticizing an apparent tendency of others to envision therapists as magicians (that is: people who can do things no other people can do.) Now this is a tendency which might in some cases help with the therapist's work, I suppose. I fear, though, that this tendency would thwart thwart therapy altogether in other cases. I'm speaking here of cases of people who felt that the magic wand was all that was required and so were not prepared to engage actively in the task themselves. Present company excluded. Thanks for your comments.

Noah -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/14/2007 10:53:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LittleWench quote: I agree with what lauren0221 said as well..."nothing good comes from not being who you are." I disagree, there are jails filled with people who were compelled to act upon their inner desires. Some people should not accept who they are and should take every means possible, including chemical castration or life long incarceration, in order to prevent themselves from acting on their fantasies. That, however, is not the case here. (Interestingly, research shows that past sex offenders who have been chemically or even physically castrated re-offend at the same rates as those who were punished without castration, and the rate is low.) I think that taking the responsibility to rise above certain of your urges (as you sem to suggest) is a fine way to "be yourself." I suspect that you and I would agree that this is a much richer notion than the idea that to "be yourself" requires surrending to every recurring desire. Should the original poster rise above her submissive desires? I dunno. I'm not strongly tempted to think so.

Noah -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/14/2007 11:01:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tigrita It doesn't make any more sense to hate the part of you that is drawn to submission any more than to hate yourself for being straight, or being a woman. You are still the same strong woman who is independent, self-assured, resourceful, all the things you admire in strong women. You are also submissive (it seems, or at least you are curious and drawn to it). These don't negate each other. They are different, interconnected facets of your beautiful, complex, human psyche. Don't pigeon-hole yourself and think that your entire identity and everything you admire about yourself because you've discovered, or begun to accept something new about yourself. This is just another facet to add to your identity, and your list of strengths. Take care. Hey Patwi, I think Tigrita's post would a fine thing to tape to your refrigerator door. (at least until you decide to let someone do that to you.)

marsman -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/14/2007 11:17:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: patwi By explodes I mean...it got a lot of hits. I don't see this as a bad thing? And the underlined bit was me laying out the part that trips me up. I love all the replies I've had. I can't change my brain overnight. This is a lot for me to think on and a lot for me to process here. That part you pointed out is exactly my hang up. Did you expect me to be able to snap my fngers and say "Oh, ok, issue fixed."? I can't. I'm working on it, slowly. It took me decades to accept the "Sadist" within me. By society's standards I'm not supposed to like to spank/whip/tie-up a woman. I used to believe that the only reason a woman would be "submissive" is because she was paid to be. This was re-enforced by the typical BDSM movies I saw which often feature "vanilla" actresses who in reality only do it for the money, and who are chosen strictly for their youth and beauty, but not for their submissiveness. And by a sad encounter in the early 1990's that I had with a so-called BDSM club that used to be in San Francisco which featured "professional" submissives. It wasn't until years later and Craigslist that I met a real local submissive woman. Her enthusiasm for being spanked, whipped, flogged and bound did wonders for my "psychology" and my "attitude". I started going to munches and visiting a local public dungeon. Seeing dozens and dozens of kinky people playing also helped me adjust to the idea of being a Dominant.

ChainedExistence -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/15/2007 12:09:01 AM)
My thoughts are all over the place while reading this thread I've thought about what it means to serve- and why service to others isn't weak. (I picture my grandmother here...as strong a woman as I have ever known, who devoted her life to helping others) I've thought about what it means to be a strong, independent woman and how everyone submits to one thing or another, (I submit to my boss, to my sick children, to the govt when I pay my taxes, to the will of the community when I wait in line or obey the speed limit in a construction zone) I thought about how my upbringing- Southern Baptist, "good girl", and how that had a huge impact on how I viewed my thoughts and desires. I had to decide how this fit into what I believed and what beliefs were not ones worth holding onto. I thought about therapy and how I once envisioned that only crazy people needed that - But one day I got to a point in my life where I felt I needed some clarity and found value in an objective outsider who could ask some key questions and help me sort through my tangled web of emotions and sort out what I really wanted to do. I've thought about desires I've had, and how I came from one place in my life to the position I am in now... And overall I've thought this- sometimes it's simply a slow process. For me, everything was about fear. Fear of what might happen, who I might become, how my life might turn out. Can I say it was all easy and without some serious changes? No, but I am finally at a point in my life where I feel at peace with myself. Every thought you've have, someone else here has had. Everything you are worried about- one of us has had that same concern plus quite a few more. The best thing I can tell you is that you are not alone, but you will be the one who has to work out what this will mean for you. It may be with a therapist, or not. It may involve the complete cooperation of your spouse, or not. It may happen quickly or take years of research before you can take your first tentative steps. You may have to go through major life changes or you may simply choose to keep these thoughts and feelings as an interesting fantasy. Do know this- the reality is rarely what we perceive it to be. People are living their lives happily engaging in these behaviors and you'd never know it from the outside. They could be your nurse, your hairdresser, your child's daycare worker, the cashier at the grocery store, the high-powered attorney, the little old lady who looks oh so sweet and innocent but yields a mean whip! Sure there are people out there who are doing this completely out in the open, and one day that could be you, but it will be what you decide it will be. That's why there's no definitive user's manuel, and why you'll see so many different opinions expressed here. It's like the most amazing buffet ever- you get to pick and choose what you want, and leave the rest for others.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/15/2007 2:17:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Noah Oh for heaven's sake... I apologize. Thank you. I appreciate and accept your apology. quote: But now what if you had turned out to be someone who found "Ms." an insulting term in that it fails to recognize and honor a woman's marital status? I suppose I would have been rude for using Ms. I've always considered "Ms." to be marital neutral. It's not Miss or Mrs., it's somewhere between the two. But that's just me. I haven't stated my marital status here, so I don't know how it could be construed as insulting to use Ms. as the honorific. However, in the hypothetical, if I were one of the women insulted by lack of recognition of my marital status, I suppose I would have to make allowances for those who were not aware of it. quote: And you strike me as an uncommon person. Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment. quote: Speaking of uncommon, in what culture does Ap serve comparably to the O' in Irish names? I've never run into it. It's Welsh. quote: By the way, please feel free to call me No, or ah, or Sid O'Swordandsorcerynovel if it floats your boat. Thank you, Noah. I got a chuckle from Sid O'Swordandsorcerynovel. Do you like fantasy novels or is that entirely tongue-in-cheek? quote: Anyhow, IMO there are good lessons to be taken from the Original Poster. Undoubtedly. quote: When I look between the lines of her posts here I read a frank willingness to expose her own vulnerability in the exploration of some ideas (and feeling) she was interested in but wasn't comfortable with. I found that admirable--far from objectionable--from the start. Also admirable was the deft way she responded to the substance rather than the presumption and vitriol in certain responses to her. I don't disagree with this assessment at all. I won't profess to understand why she's more comfortable posting to strangers on a message board than in talking to a stranger who is a professional trained to assist her in either accepting her desires as healthy and normal or in changing her thought patterns, but that's neither here nor there. quote: Are you aware that if IMO the moon is made of green cheese then my O is wrong? ... and that your O can be be just as wrong? ... and that it is entirely relevant for someone to point that out? And here is where we disagree and/or you missed the point of my first post. I don't want to hijack the thread in a debate of the relative merits (or lack thereof) of therapy. Suffice it to say that I find as much value in consulting a counselor as I find in consulting any other health professional whether it is an M.D., dentist, or optometrist. No magic involved, just more extensive training in specific helping techniques than the average person will have. I wouldn't ask my friends to diagnose and treat an illness or try to do it myself. Likewise, I wouldn't ask them to help me change my cognitive-behavioral patterns or try to do so on my own. Why should she? Frankly, I don't think she can "change her kink" at all, but I'm willing to conceed that it might be possible with the help of a trained professional. You disagree. That's certainly your prerogative. Your disagreement with my viewpoint doesn't make you right and me wrong. That's like saying the theory of evolution is wrong and Intelligent Design is right. We could debate either position all day and resolve nothing. However, it misses the point. My original point is that she doesn't have to have therapy at all. She can ignore her desires or she can entertain them only in fantasy. It won't necessarily make them go away, but she doesn't have to act on them or incorporate them into her life. She can give them as much or as little attention as she feels comfortable doing. In either case, the problem is resolved and she doesn't need to beat herself up over the fact that she has kinky fantasies. Thought does not equal act. Perhaps I failed to make this sufficiently clear. In that case, I apologize for the miscommunication.

BondageSlaveMN -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/15/2007 5:41:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Noah quote: ORIGINAL: BondageSlaveMN Hi SlaveMN, quote: Who attributes mystical powers to therapist? I only attribute a special respect to therapists with PhD's and and they certainly aren't magical, they just had the devotion to make it through a lot of school. If you don't attribute said magical powers then my comments weren't about you. I can respect the effort invested in getting a PhD too. quote: Furthermore, there is a veritable plethora of poor therapists that should never be allowed contact with a patient. I wouldn't be surprised if this were true. What I find silly is the notion expressed by some that there are important things a human being can accomplish with a therapist which things a human being cannot accomplish otherwise. quote: I agree with your statement that therapy is not necessary to change your psychological make-up, but I disagree with the way you represented this information. This is tantamount to how Michael Moore presents his “truths” to the public. I might agree with some of his points, but I cannot find him credible due to the way he presents his views and twists information. Interesting. quote: People can change. They just don't usually. I've found that it takes quite a serious threat for someone to change themselves. Most people claim to have changed, but they are really just the same person with different manifestations. I take "changed person" to mean precisely: "same person with different (something or other)". If your notion of "changed person" has to do with becoming someone else altogether, well, I don't even know what that would entail or look like. quote: I am not saying people cannot and have not changed, I'm just saying that it's extremely rare. And to do so without the aide of a professional is even more difficult. It would take someone who is extremely introspective and observant to accomplish such a task. How about someone who was moderately introspective but open to examining preconceptions as such, perhaps with a willingness to listen to the helpful insightful comments of caring, intimate friends and a further willingness to try new behaviors? Plus courage. I suspect that changing in this situation might be even easier than doing so with a stranger paid to help. But of course my O might be wrong. quote: I think it unwise to simply dismiss therapists as sophisticated magicians in guise. There is a lot of wisdom in modern psychology. While I don't view it as a particularly justifiable science, I cannot deny that the tenets of psychology have very real and useful applications. I hope you didn't read me as dismissing therapists as magicians in disguise. I wasn't dismissing them at all. I was criticizing an apparent tendency of others to envision therapists as magicians (that is: people who can do things no other people can do.) Now this is a tendency which might in some cases help with the therapist's work, I suppose. I fear, though, that this tendency would thwart thwart therapy altogether in other cases. I'm speaking here of cases of people who felt that the magic wand was all that was required and so were not prepared to engage actively in the task themselves. Present company excluded. Thanks for your comments. I perhaps was not articulate enough with regards to the ability of people to change. People become psychologically static when they cease to live. We are in a constant state of flux which in the end means we are always changing. I am certainly not the same person I was ten years ago. What I meant by "people don't often change" is that people don't often change in dramatic ways without proper motivation. I will give you this example. My best friend has been severely depressed for the majority of his life. At one point, he was so depressed and suicidal that he was in and out of the hospital frequently. He ended up changing because his alternative was to die. He made some changes in his way of thought and his being that allowed him to at least function in day to day life. The prospect of death, in this case, was sufficient motivation to make the changes that needed to be made. It is possible, however, to change without such a severe consequence as the motivation. Again, this is not an easy task and is rather uncommon, in my experience.

Sinergy -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/15/2007 7:48:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Noah Speaking of uncommon, in what culture does Ap serve comparably to the O' in Irish names? I've never run into it. I agree with everything you posted, Noah, except I wanted to clarify... the answer to your question would be the Gaelic from Wales (Welsh) http://genealogy.about.com/od/surnames/a/surname_meaning.htm Sinergy

KnightofMists -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/16/2007 5:50:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: patwi I understand what you're saying. But - I'm embarrased to have even the tiniest part of me be that like weak, submissive woman that I detest when I see her in day to day life. I Know using that "W" word will draw the ire of most of you, but this is just the way I feel about it, I am being honest. and here is the heart of the matter.... You indentify submission as being weak.. and you hate weakness. Ironcially... I see you exceptional weak for being encapable of actually being who you are and pretending to be something you're not. It's all a matter of Preception. You preceive submission a certain way... I percieve it a different way. I precieve being authentic to ourselves a certain way and you percieve it a different way. BTW..... we can change our perceptions! it's a choice!

mnottertail -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/16/2007 5:56:55 AM)
There is something intensely beatific about a humiliated and shamed womans countenance. Ron

Jeffff -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/16/2007 5:59:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail There is something intensely beatific about a humiliated and shamed womans countenance. Ron Yeah..........there is............... Jeff

KnightofMists -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/16/2007 5:59:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: patwi .... or the girlfriend faking interest or disinterest in things making every effort to please her boyfriend and never herself. or the wife that pretends she is independent and self-sufficient in all things being that strong person in her eyes when she secretly longs to have moments where she can give over a bit of that independence

MissSCD -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/16/2007 8:02:41 AM)
*patwi:* *I know exactly what you are going through. With me, I see a lot of this lifestyle for what it is, but at the same time feel it is very degrading to women on both levels sub and Domme.* I have struggled with this from the beginning. I have been in the life four years. I have scened live and know it is all about fun, but I still cannot let go of the fact that it appears to be abuse in my mind. I know sooner or later, it will come to a close because I will have to pick what side of the fence I want to be on. *Good luck to you.* *Regards, MissSCD* quote: ORIGINAL: patwi As the title sort of suggests, I have soemthing of a problem. I don't want the BDSM orientation which I seem to be wired for. I've read the articles, I've watched the forums, I've educated myself. And still - I detest the fantasies I have, I detest the things that I secretly think about because no matter what I do, in my mind it is not a "good" thing to be. Have any of you ever been in the same situation? What do you do when you want to change your kink? Is that even possible?

patwi -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/16/2007 9:34:13 AM)
I do want to thank everyone for their comments, I've been really mulling things over in my head these past few days, which is the reason I posted here in the first place. To get the perspectives of people actually -in- the lifestyle. I know many of you still want me to go to therapy....no. I;m working through this well enough on my own and with the help of the replies here. :) Thanks again to all of you - once I get things set in my own head, I'll move onto phase two. Telling the husband what I want.

DesFIP -> RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. (12/16/2007 9:36:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Noah How about someone who was moderately introspective but open to examining preconceptions as such, perhaps with a willingness to listen to the helpful insightful comments of caring, intimate friends and a further willingness to try new behaviors? Plus courage. I suspect that changing in this situation might be even easier than doing so with a stranger paid to help. But of course my O might be wrong. The problem here is that people who insist on not talking to anyone, not ever agreeing that they can't do it all alone, yet keep doing the same thing over and over always being surprised at having the same outcome do not qualify as moderately introspective. Nor are they likely to have as friends people who are caring, self accepting, and integrated. Because healthy people who have dealt with their own problems don't like to spend their time with people dealing with self caused drama. In addition, there is more risk talking to a friend about something you are ashamed of because you risk rejection from someone who would hurt you enormously if they could not accept you. Plus they could both reject you and out you causing other friends, family and employer to devalue you. And most of all, someone who thinks there is weakness in ever accepting any help from anyone, who does believe she shouldn't need anyone is as unlikely to open up to a friend either because doing so would be a sign of weakness in her eyes. You can do things without therapy, unfortunately it usually takes a hell of a lot longer.

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