RE: My two impressions of America (Full Version)

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petdave -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/16/2007 9:36:58 PM)

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Well, everyone has to remove their shoes/slippers while flying, whether you are sitting or standing.

The problem is, the first time someone is NOT checked and gets into the plane with explosives...all hell will break loose as to how airport safety did not scrutinize travelers enough.  Remember the guy with the explosive shoe?


Ahh, yes, the infamous exploding shoe! Oh noez! So scary!

[:'(]

Do you have any idea how much damage a hostile could do with a tanker truck full of gasoline? But, oh, we're safe from harm as long as we hand over our shoes and belts and nail fucking clippers whenever we get on an airplane. Pfft. Wake up.



ownedgirlie -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/16/2007 10:07:58 PM)

I'm just saying...there are rules in place, and like it or not, travelers must oblige.  What I wrote was in reply to the person who complained about having to remove her slipper while in a wheelchair.  I was just saying all feet must be bare...or at least socked...and it likely didn't have anything to do with the wheelchair.

Last I checked, unauthorized tanker trucks can not drive up to airports.  OK, I didn't really check, but I do not think they can.  And fingernail clippers are allowed on planes (I always have clippers in my purse).

My point is, we hate the rules (I do, too), but the moment something happens, everyone gets up in arms over inadequate security. 




TheHeretic -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/16/2007 10:20:16 PM)

      Oh, there are far better candidates then gasoline tankers, PetDave.  Lucky for us, creativity isn't their strong suit.

      Immigration control is about an awful lot more than terrorism though.



UtopianRanger -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/16/2007 11:01:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Let me once again apologize, on behalf of all Rational Americans. Our government has been hijacked by Religious Fundamentalists and Party Whores.



To put it quite simply:  I blame Stella's expirience on this fucked up, phony '' war on terror. '' It's turned the United States upside down and into a nightmare.

Before '' The war on terror '' I'd roll up to the gate 30 mins before departure, show my ID and get on da plane. Now I've gotta deal with a whole host of TSA/Homeland Security geeks, going from one check point to the other. It's just ridiculous....and I rarely travel now because of it.

I pray to the sky gods every night....End this phony war on terror, give us our country back.....and save us from these paranoid, ulta power-hungry ruffians.



- R



adoracat -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/16/2007 11:46:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Well, everyone has to remove their shoes/slippers while flying, whether you are sitting or standing.

The problem is, the first time someone is NOT checked and gets into the plane with explosives...all hell will break loose as to how airport safety did not scrutinize travelers enough.  Remember the guy with the explosive shoe?


*now* they do, yes.  this was before the shoe-removal regulation happened.  my son and i were pulled out for a random search...

they searched me but NOT the wheelchair.  and yes, a padded seat could conceal something, you know? 

i dont mind so much the regulations that are now in place.  although they did lead to some amusement when i was wearing cowboy boots and needed help from the imp in removing them.  :)

if *everyone* is treated the same, i have no issues.  its annoying, yes, but if everyone is annoyed the same, so be it.

kitten



ownedgirlie -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/16/2007 11:59:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: adoracat

*now* they do, yes.  this was before the shoe-removal regulation happened.  my son and i were pulled out for a random search...

they searched me but NOT the wheelchair.  and yes, a padded seat could conceal something, you know? 

i dont mind so much the regulations that are now in place.  although they did lead to some amusement when i was wearing cowboy boots and needed help from the imp in removing them.  :)

if *everyone* is treated the same, i have no issues.  its annoying, yes, but if everyone is annoyed the same, so be it.

kitten


Oh ok, I was incorrectly thinking you meant recently. 

My Dad - a 76 year old man with cancer and a walker - was also asked to step away from the walker, lift the chair portion of it  (there is storage underneath) and remove his slippers, also.  He grumbled a little, until my Mom told him to knock it off - the bigger the stir a person creates, the bigger the fiasco, ya know?

I didn't mean to point you out critically, adoracat.  I agree it is unfortunate and annoying what we have to go through now, and that prejudices are never good. 

For the heck of it, I Googled information about Transgenders flying internationally and passport issues - there were several articles pointing out the confusion that can occur, and listed tips in limiting the problems that have been known to happen.  They also list links where people can go to file harrassment complaints.  It is my belief that anyone with a changed passport or questionable situation should look into such issues before traveling.  It didn't take me long to find enough articles that indicated TGs often have problems flying internationally.  Some of those articles came from TG groups, such as TG Crossroads and TS Roadmap.  There is also a pretty decent article from the UK's Foreign & Commonwealth Office, stating international travel tips for those who are transgender.  Apparently international travel is a known problem for transgenders, and there are several groups working toward educating those in authority and creating rules that are a bit more fair. 



lazarus1983 -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 4:21:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Well, everyone has to remove their shoes/slippers while flying, whether you are sitting or standing.

The problem is, the first time someone is NOT checked and gets into the plane with explosives...all hell will break loose as to how airport safety did not scrutinize travelers enough.  Remember the guy with the explosive shoe?


Ahh, yes, the infamous exploding shoe! Oh noez! So scary!

[:'(]

Do you have any idea how much damage a hostile could do with a tanker truck full of gasoline? But, oh, we're safe from harm as long as we hand over our shoes and belts and nail fucking clippers whenever we get on an airplane. Pfft. Wake up.



Do you have any idea how much damage even a small amount of C4, or similar explosive, could do to the relatively thin skin of an airplane? One depressurization later, and that plane is in a world of trouble. Pfft. Wake up.

And although I can't really draw much of a correlation between hijacked tanker trucks and airport searches, I have yet to hear of anyone successfully smuggling a tanker truck onto an airplane, so I think we're safe. For now. Dun-dun-dun!



lazarus1983 -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 4:24:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Well, everyone has to remove their shoes/slippers while flying, whether you are sitting or standing.

The problem is, the first time someone is NOT checked and gets into the plane with explosives...all hell will break loose as to how airport safety did not scrutinize travelers enough.  Remember the guy with the explosive shoe?

From what I have read here, the issue was not that Stella is TG, it was due to confusion of those who did not understand a Female passport being held by a person with a penis.  That said, it is reasonable to me that she was questioned and detained.  Tell me, if she was Seeq, Muslim, from Iraq, would people be reacting the same?

I am reminded of the story of the woman who was unfairly detained for spilling her glass of water, when upset when she was not allowed to carry it with her through the check point.  Everyone thought what an injustice that was, until surveillance cameras reflected a different story.

I do not know Stella.  I have nothing against her at all.  I understand her being extremely upset.   But I also know only one side of this story is being told, and until an actual investigation occurs (as happened with the water lady), we are only seeing one side of a story and screaming injustice to America as a result.

There is a reason both sides of the story is told in every trial.  I think Heretic is raising good questions.  Reminds me of 12 Angry Men here.  Maybe Heretic is totally wrong.  Maybe he has a point.  The truth is, we simply do not know.

Stella, if you were treated injustly, then that is indeed a shame, and you should press appropriate charges.  If you were treated in a way that follows US Protocol and you did not look into this before you traveled, then it has been an unfortunate and stressful lesson learned.  I do wish you the best.


My thoughts exactly. I reserve judgment until I see some actual facts, not just what one side has asserted. It's just that this person's story allows everyone to jump on the bandwagon and bemoan some facet of this country and its government and how it's run. They don't need no stinkin' facts, as long as the story allows them to feel righteous and validated while they bitch.



Sanity -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 4:29:52 AM)

You're damn right. There are three sides to every story. Person A's side, person B's side, and then what really happened.


quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983
My thoughts exactly. I reserve judgment until I see some actual facts, not just what one side has asserted. It's just that this person's story allows everyone to jump on the bandwagon and bemoan some facet of this country and its government and how it's run. They don't need no stinkin' facts, as long as the story allows them to feel righteous and validated while they bitch.



DeviantMasteruk -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 4:44:50 AM)

Im former British armed forces and did a couple of counter terroism courses, and trust me there is a good reason why people are asked to remove thier shoes. One of the things we were shown on one of the courses, was during the height of the IRA's bombing campaign a member of the IRA tried boarding a plane, and as he was going threw one of the security gates one of the search dogs went active. So the guy  was pulled into one of the private search areas, and was strip searched and they couldnt find anything, The dog was brought back in and went to alert again., So he was rechecked and nothing found. They did this again with another dog and that dog went to alert too. Eventuall they found out it was his trainers (tennis shows for the amercans)  The soles of the shoes were made of semtex  and detonators hid in the laces. Now the reality of this situation is the IRA were not suicide bombers so its unlikely that hed have used it to bring the plane down.  The same can't be said of Muslim extremists, and trust me theres more than enough explosive in those shoes to bring a plane down.



farglebargle -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 4:57:07 AM)

quote:


My thoughts exactly. I reserve judgment until I see some actual facts, not just what one side has asserted. It's just that this person's story allows everyone to jump on the bandwagon and bemoan some facet of this country and its government and how it's run.


Since the government in question is TORTURING PRISONERS, I'm don't understand why any rational person would give it the benefit of the doubt.

The price of Liberty and Freedom is accepting the risks inherent in All having Liberty and Freedom. If someone is too much of a coward to accept those risks, I can understand why the Security Theater at the Airports would come as a comfort to their tiny little brains.





Alumbrado -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 6:37:31 AM)

quote:

If Ziggy is correct in his statement regarding US law, then deportation was the only possible outcome. It's fair to say I'm a critic of US foreign policy, but within their own borders, it's their country to do as they see fit. It appears that the people of the US have a law that doesn't equate to British law; it's well documented that Western Europe is more liberal than the United States, so the wise move would have been to understand the cultural differences before travelling.

I wouldn't wish this episode on anyone as it sounds horrendous, but the rule of law is paramount, here.


Then you should have no problem coming up with a cite for these supposed laws declaring that genitalia legally define gender (which SZ hasn't). Until then, I'll stand by the Kansas cases saying exactly the opposite.



LadyEllen -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 7:53:14 AM)

I'm TS. Though I havent been to the US (and likely never will now, though my UMs would love me to take them), I travel extensively for business all over Europe - mainly those places where the border guards are of the same ilk as in the communist days, and one has to produce a passport. I'm usually travelling with a Czech guy, in a rental car - him with his Czech ID card and me with my British passport.

We have never been stopped. Coming into any airport, indeed departing from any airport, I've never been stopped. And I never get hassle anywhere, even in places which are fairly high risk for the likes of me.

The reason? Because I pass as female. In fact, there are dozens of poor genetic women out there who look like me.

I'm happy about it for myself of course - but its simply not on.

I wouldnt be at all surprised if it were me at Hartsfield instead of Stella, if no one had batted an eyelid and I were admitted without problem. There is no real difference in our situations - yet I would lay a bet that I would be admitted, with the same documentation, the same meds in my bag, the same genetic make up and the same birth defects present.

So, what it then becomes is whether one "looks right" - and this is no slight at Stella as she's said much the same in the past herself, she doesnt pass as well as I do. Now that sort of discernment is OK for relationships et al, but it is notoriously difficult, being a subjective matter, to determine in law such as might be applicable in this case. In fact, it then becomes a situation akin to "driving whilst black" in that the subjective opinion of one or more people is the basis for arrest, or in this case deportation.

If the documentation is valid and belongs to the person presenting it and has been issued by not just a friendly country but your closest ally for whom they have gone into severe hock in financial and credibility terms, then that is the end of the matter. Whether one has three arms, one eye and purple skin is absolutely irrelevant to the matter - the documents are what is to be relied upon - otherwise there is no point in issuing or having or presenting them.

As for the comment about "entering on false pretences" - that is indeed reaching a little in relation to genitalia, for a whole lot of reasons. And as for any possible security risk - are they joking? Do they really think that a terrorist would turn up at the airport in anything less than a full burkha, were he stupid enough in the first place to try to enter on a female passport? The terrorists can do a whole lot better than that and do, regularly - though if I were an Arab terrorist I think I'd learn Spanish and try a more cross country route which didnt need a passport, where I wouldnt stand out.

E




RCdc -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 8:21:10 AM)

Lady Ellen
 
I admit to being upset seeing it was Stella who this happened to.  However the issue is much bigger than simply being about her and I don't mean that in a negative way and I am sure she would echo, it's also about how people are not treated the same based simply on preconceptions of others.  I know there are the naysayers and those trying intentionally to push buttons on this thread - but the crunch comes down to it's not just one person touched, it's everyone.
Not everyone can be treated 'equally' and I understand that, but its the inconsistancy that erks me personally and the treatment from allegedly democratic and 'advanced' parts of the world and I include the UK in that.
 
the.dark.



LadyEllen -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 8:41:41 AM)

I thought thats what I said

E



RCdc -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 8:43:49 AM)

Yes you did, and I was agreeing with you.
I stopped posting on the thread because I couldn't put it as eloquently as you could and ended up just letting my emotions run my words.

the.dark.



pahunkboy -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 8:52:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Let me once again apologize, on behalf of all Rational Americans. Our government has been hijacked by Religious Fundamentalists and Party Whores.



To put it quite simply:  I blame Stella's expirience on this fucked up, phony '' war on terror. '' It's turned the United States upside down and into a nightmare.

Before '' The war on terror '' I'd roll up to the gate 30 mins before departure, show my ID and get on da plane. Now I've gotta deal with a whole host of TSA/Homeland Security geeks, going from one check point to the other. It's just ridiculous....and I rarely travel now because of it.

I pray to the sky gods every night....End this phony war on terror, give us our country back.....and save us from these paranoid, ulta power-hungry ruffians.



- R


i would be curious as to hard numbers on this. I would say I hesitate to fly due to this all -you know. Yet- I hear the US needs more airport capacity.

lets say I fly from Harrisburg PA to Chicago.  90 mins to airport- 2 hours early- 2 hours fly time- another 90 mins to get from Ohare- -all that- or a 12 hour drive all on my demand. My schedule.  I can stop and pee when I want- I can have a burger and soft drink- heck I can wear shoes too! 
Also- I have a car at my destination.

So- for distances of 600 miles- it doesnt pay to fly.  Not since it NOW has become a hastle like it is.



RCdc -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 8:52:55 AM)

This is Darcy

Unfortunately due to this 'war on terror' the security measures at airports (which I come across frequently as I travel regularly with work) have become beyond annoying, not for the fact that they are too thorough, or take too long - I'm the first to grin and bear it when there's a worthwhile outcome at the end of it - but because there is a lack of consistency.

I wear a two foot long chain, one end attached to my wallet, the other to my belt, and up until these latest measures came into place had no trouble whatsoever in wearing this on planes - I'd take my wallet out and put it through the x-ray machines like a good boy, no fuss, no problems.

However, last January I was flying to Paris for a couple of days on business and I was told by the English security man that he would have to confiscate the chain because it was a security risk. (I must mention at this point that it had been a present, the wallet and chain, so I was not happy at this suggestion). I asked him why (in my most polite, rational voice, whilst my brain was shouting "what the fuck?") and he told me that I could strangle someone with it!! A two foot long length of chain? Give me a break.

I didn't dare tell him that if I really wanted to take someone out then there were a dozen ways I could do so with the items that were already on the plane as part of the furniture, so to speak, not to mention the fact that smashing my laptop (which had been allowed through with no problems) over someones head would be a far quicker and easier way of taking them down than by trying to do it with a length of chain that I'd barely be able to get around their neck! Obviously, not wanting to be thrown off the flight, or in jail, I kept these thoughts to myself, but all but exploded (internally - best not to look too agitated in departure lounges [;)]) when in the duty free shop I discovered for sale a wallet, with guess what - yep, a two foot length of chain attached to it.

The moral I guess is that if you're going to strangle someone on a plane then it's OK if you do it with something you've picked up in duty free.



spanklette -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 9:01:21 AM)

~FR~
 
I've read through the thread...and yuck! I realize that there were larger issues involved than what I'm about to mention, but hey...life's short.
 
If anyone is trying to fly without major annoyance, avoid Atlanta, Memphis, and Detroit. I think they sit in small dark rooms under these airports and try to contemplate ways to make travel difficult.
 
Stella, if you try to re-enter the US, I would fly into the New Orleans airport. You're only an hour and a half out of Ocean Springs and they won't bat an eye at someone who is TS. If you're hassled, it won't be because of your gender.
 
I know this may sound bizarre, but it was actually your good fortune that you were handed over to the local authorities...it's gets harder to "lose" someone once you're in there. It's not impossible, but more difficult.
 
Anyway, good luck on getting into the city and I hope that you get a chance to make the difference that you want to make. I hope you get a chance to visit La Petite Theatre and take part in some of the community events there.
 
As an aside, you might find some local support with members of Southern Decadence. Many of it's members are powerful and outspoken members of our alternative sexual community...it's touted as a primarily gay club, but they'll pick up the TS banner every once in a while. Just thought that might help you get some of the local folks on your side.
 
Edited to add a completely off topic comment: I have a picture of my brother, who is a commercial airline pilot for a major airline, tring to fix something in the cockpit with a set of nail clippers that he and his co-pilot had taken apart...they weren't allowed their set of screwdrivers on the plane. Just makes you feel all safe and comfy knowing that pilots have access to all the equipment that they might require to fly safely.[8|]



LadyEllen -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/17/2007 9:09:43 AM)

Thats interesting what you say there Darcy - about the chain.

In my younger, and more stupid (yes, I was once even more daft than now) I studied some self defence techniques using of all things, a BIC biro as a weapon. Absolutely deadly if one knows what to do with it. And I take them on planes in my bag all the time - gotta have something to do the crossword with.

Then there's my high heels. I certainly wouldnt want a crack on the head even with the 2'' heels I wear, let alone anything higher and more stabby.

And I can take a lighter on board - what fun. (though obviously, more than one lighter is dangerous). How about I take the Times to the toilet, screw the pages into fire sticks, light them and start throwing them out the door into the passenger area?

And there's my belt, which I can strangle someone with.

And my personal favourite - pose as a diabetic, necessitating the taking of a needle on board. Halfway through flight, draw some blood, grab a hostess and announce I have HIV and will inject said hostess with infected blood should this that or the other not be done (in flight drinks at half price would be a reasonable demand I think).

And I failed my Al Quaeda interview. Shame really, as I have the most deadly combination of terrorist paraphernalia ever devised - a female passport and a penis.

E



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