RE: My two impressions of America (Full Version)

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SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 9:26:41 AM)

this entire situation has eaten at me so much since it was first brought up, i forwarded links to the original thread to the local atlanta fox news channel via their news story ideas link on their web page.  time will tell if they find it worthy to investigate, but it is the only thing i could think of to do.

i am not against increased security. it is not a perfect solution, but i can think of no better one.  i can also see how someone with a passport stating them to be female and appearing to be male could get extra scrutiny.  but i  dont see how, if this happened as relayed to us, that somehow it could not have been solved and stella allowed to reach the destination that was set out for, rather than being sent back home.

if there is a news story, which i dont expect there will be, i will post a link to it.



kdsub -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 9:44:22 AM)

Hi the.Dark

Your description is exactly what I am talking about…I don’t think officials knowing the person was TS would allow it.
I do think your solutions would work just fine…if they were of a mind to compromise.
Sadly we know how people given a small amount of power often exaggerate their importance and get a fair amount of enjoyment out of humiliating people.
I’m all for pushing rights and I admire Stella’s steadfastness…but it did nothing for the people she was wanted to help.



LadyEllen -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 10:11:05 AM)

Ah, the toilets issue!

Its a good one, thats for sure. The thing is, it comes down yet again to whether one looks right or not - in my experience, no one stands at the door or anywhere within a female public toilet, requiring those wishing to use the facilities to show their badge of membership. And in my experience, I've never been so much as looked at twice in the female loos all over the UK and Europe, let alone has the issue of my badge come up.

What it boils down to is fear. Totally ridiculous fear on the part of genetic women, probably more serious and real fear on the part of the owners of the toilets by way of possible lawsuits they might get involved in for permitting, or at least not preventing a genetic male to enter.

The fear of genetic women is truly ridiculous really. What one must understand is that even pre-op, a TS female uses the female loos because she needs to go, not because she wants to catch a glimpse of womens' bits nor indeed to mount some sort of surreptitious sexual activity. TS females go about the world wishing to blend in, not to draw attention to themselves - such as they might by peeking over or under cublices for instance. And in addition, the use of hormonal treatments makes it very unlikely that a pre-op TS female is going to seek out such personal entertainment or indeed be able to do anything much about it. But above all, having used female loos for some years now, I have to say that although I havent tried to catch a glimpse, neither have I inadvertently seen anything I might not want to.

And lets be clear - when one looks and dresses and moves like a woman, its by far better to use the female loos and risk possible embarassment, than to use the male loos and get beaten to a pulp or raped.

Yes, there could be a case for travellers to use a male passport and male loos - but this totally misses the point of what gender identity disorder is and how its treated. This isnt some whim, nor some sexual fun - its serious stuff which ends in suicide on a regular basis. The treatment is to transition to the other sex, which is held to dissipate the symptoms and produce a reasonable prognosis. If I had now to use a male passport and use the male loos when I travelled, I wouldnt travel, simple as that. I do not want anything to do with my birth gender, and though life in transition can be difficult (though I had it easy by most standards) I just could not imagine going back to being male - I'd rather die.

At the same time though, I do understand the concerns of genetic women with regard to crossdressers possibly accessing the female loos - fully intact, fully functional, male men whose interests might extend further than using the fitments. Again though, its much safer for them to use the female loos than the male loos and really I cannot imagine such a man aspiring to sexuality in the female loos - he'd be caught in no time flat and get beaten senseless and arrested. Its a non starter, I should think, as a plan.

Of course, to avoid such problems we could position guards to check ID at the doors. No female ID? No entry - use the male loos. And this would apply to genetic women who cant produce ID too, whilst I with my female documents would pass through without problem.

E




LadyEllen -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 10:17:41 AM)

Oh - I just wanted to add on the subject of using the disabled loos - the "hot" recommendation often handed out.

I'm not disabled. I might be one day thanks to arthritis, but not right now. Its insulting to be asked or told to use the disabled loos - what it means is that I am nothing, because I'm not a man and not a woman. Fxxx that.

In any case, I think its disgusting for a start that disabled loos are unisex; yet another instance of the depersonalistation of the disabled - clearly, they dont count as men or women either, theyre nothing, just like me.

I am (now) woman - hear me pee.

E



RCdc -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 11:07:47 AM)

The whole point of disabled toilets is that its easier to use from a wheelchair - the sex isn't relevant really - it's only relevant when people make it a big thing.  Disabled people who can stand will use either male or female toilets.  I get that using the disabled toilets aren't a great solution, but then I have had to use disabled loos in my time and don't have a problem with doing so and I don't view pregnancy or children or transgender as a disability - I found it simply a compromise on a situation at the time.  I like the fact of somewhere, like Costa for example, who have just one toilet that serves everyone - I think people on the whole deal when they have to and making toilets male and female and this and that just make life more complicated and more segregated.
 
the.dark.




pahunkboy -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 1:23:20 PM)

Hey Polite; I dont think the state one enters has much to do with entry.

In mid July a buddy of mine flew to England.  He was detained and then only allowed 3 days to see family.  Ok- that was bad enough- but on return to Canada- Canada detained him as well!   The home country!   At issue was that his relatives bought him the plane ticket- and he did not have a credit card.  The amount of money he had - they thought was not ample- but for not paying a hotel- it was.

This guy is 30, average looking.

So- apparantly there is a score system for each item like FB suggested.

The up-tight mood IMO even is rearing its head in grocery stores- even simple transactions are not -well more involved-



stella41b -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 1:46:30 PM)

This is to provide another update... and once again thank you for your kind words and expressions of support...

I've updated my own personal website by adding some pages.

I've decided to add to my site a not too good but a photo of my passport along with a copy of this Officer's report to the US Consulate as to why I was denied entry to the United States. I'll bite my tongue here and keep my own opinion to myself, obviously personal details and names have been blanked out (bar mine) but I guess it will make rather interesting reading.

http://stella40bb.tripod.com/id16.html

The problem I now face is that having been removed from the Visa Waiver Program and therefore not actually being able to make a visit to see places and meet people I can only imagine I actually need a visa to return to the United States.

The anger and outrage of the UK authorities has somehow dissipated and whilst not been all that surprised I've noticed how quickly the two words 'United States' has a profound calming effect on such outrage and indignation. But there you go.. international politiics does tend to shape consular services and immigration laws.

However unlike Whitehall and Westminster I don't cr*p myself when I hear words like US Government or US Consulate. I'm not backing down nor am I giving up.. in fact I'm moving in the opposite direction and have decided that the time is right to start making various moves, ending my career break and as such have had to modify my plans. This is the start of my comeback to the stage.

Having now been preempted into declaring my intentions I have decided to be open - I've formulated a pro forma artistic project for the southern region of Mississippi state. I've decided to call it Project Kotanski, in memory to the Polish social campaigner Marek Kotanski (1942-2002) who was a tireless fighter and campaigner of social injustice and social problems. Kotanski founded two charities, Monar and Markot, he worked to fight for the people who were rejected by society - ex-offenders, people with HIV, the homeless, drug addicts and (in Polish society) gays.

I have been following a very similar path in my arttistic work over the past few years, in 2002 in Poland I broke the taboo of the sexual harrassment of women in the workplace in a country where 'additional duties' were the norm for many women just to get a job and it's still a major social issue in Poland today (which is why many much prefer Britain).. in 2003 I almost suffered a similar fate as to what happened to me in 2005 when I touched on the subject of domestic violence, and then in 2005 fully intending to come out as a TS female publicly I joined in the public controversy over equal rights for gays, lesbians and transgendered in Poland, and it was a struggle which resulted in my own personal defeat.

I have tried to get somewhere here in the UK with the homeless but am banging my head against a brick wall. It's not the funding which is defeating me, as I rarely make use of public funding - basically because it's unreliable as an income it either fails to appear or magically disappears, my problem has always been a lack of space or unsuitable spaces. Hopefully however I'm going to be back doing 6 days of intensive theatre workshops at CRISIS Open Christmas in London over Christmas.

I've decided to turn this whole situation right round and try and make it something positive so I can present it to the US Consulate as a choice, as an opportunity.. writing off what happened in Atlanta as a 'misunderstanding' or an 'error of judgment' and offering the US Consulate a choice, or a number of choices.

You see the whole issue isn\t just about crossing the border into the States, I do plan to emigrate and just as in other countries I'm looking to work in the United States legally on the basis of an artistic visa. This would be fine as I have an archive of articles relating to my work in Polish theatre... but I'm also transgendered and now living and functioning in female gender.. and my articles refer to me in my former male gender.

I took the decision to post this officer's report because I refuse to acknowledge what is written as US law.

This is the first choice. Who do you show more tolerance? The transgendered female alien or the American in uniform who chooses to abuse his powers and deny someone their human rights? I've also requested the intervention and assistance in this matter from state and local government politicians in Mississippi - same choice.

I don't need to ask the average American as I already know the answer, but I don't know how a US politician will respond. I wouldn't know how any politician will respond come to think about it.

Then there's another choice. Do the politicians take pity on me and grant me the exception, and further stick their heads in the sand, again showing that they go with the abuser of power and denier of human rights, and leave the situation open for another transgendered person or someone else of dubious appearance or lifestyle to be abused at another border? Then there's the issue of the visa applications.

I've been thinking about a solution here. If I needed supportive medical evidence to get a passport in my actual female gender then surely there should be an international law where if you are a TS crossing an international border on a passport you could be required to carry the same supporting medical evidence and whoever is at the border should be obliged to accept that as your true identity, on the basis that a passport is a sovereign document.

This has also caused me to bring up the issue of the post-Katrina trailer parks for which I'm including in Project Kotanski. I'm offering to go into the trailer parks with specialized drama and theatre workshops to change the trailer park communities and help bring these people closer to the rest of society. Again no funding required. I'm well aware that these people received huge amounts of money and for some of them it's been 'party time' and hence there's the drugs, cheap alcohol, prostitution, crime and other social problems. I know that not many people want to know about this issue, let alone talk about it or try to find a solution.

Giving these people more money isn't going to solve the issue. The Western world has had a growing welfare benefits problem over many years and like it or not blaming the people on welfare isn't working. When the welfare benefit system was first introduced it was meant only to be a short term support system for poor people, we've got people living on welfare benefits for years. What is going to happen in 20 or so years when the number of elderly people overtakes the working population? What do we expect these people to do? Grow wings and fly away? Suddenly go 'poof!' and magically vanish? It won't happen, as quite a few of them struggle to get out of bed anyway.

But you know whilst these people exist so do all the social issues and problems - crime, prostitution, broken homes, unhappy miserable childhoods, child abuse, mental illness, and so on. And whilst we're blaming them for being poor or on welfare we're also judging them and whilst we're making people afraid of being poor and making them feel uncomfortable we\'re dividing ourselves up as a society and playing right into the hands of totalitarianism where the rights of the individual mean nothing... which brings us right back to places like Atlanta Airport and other airports such as Heathrow.

But you know one of the reasons I'm not giving up or giving in on these issues is that the more I look into all this the more I'm sold on being a part of the rebuilding of lives and communities in the American South - one of the richest areas of culture in English language culture, and this is culture because much of it comes out of poverty. You know I sometimes wonder - what if the states of Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee and Alabama never existed? What sort of music would we be listening to today? I just feel that the people at the very bottom of society have a lot to offer which is why I'm developing this project.

It's taken me a few days and through this I've been thinking.. We all know that a confrontation with any sort of authority is going to play right into their hands, so I've changed my strategy and decided to be transparent and positive, I've decided to play politics, show that I'm not looking for any El Dorado, no money trail, not looking to blow anyone up, I might be big and butch and ugly but I'm actually looking to come and help people who cannot help themselves (unless of course it's to other people's money or possessions) and who nobody wants to help which is what I try to do in life anyway.

But you know what I would really like out of all this? I'd like a situation where we all can benefit somehow from this situation and therefore somehow all end up supporting each other and maybe getting some sort of result or change out of all this. Therefore I'd just like to be the example, and whatever changes I'm seeking I'm hoping won't just benefit me but everyone else who gets involved.

Projects like this one I'm proposing need people, I can't do much on my own and neither can other people, but I feel we can maybe all do something small which together will bring about some sort of change which will benefit many people here.

And this is exactly what I'm trying to create with others as a result of what happened in Atlanta - an opportunity. But an opportunity for what?



pahunkboy -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 2:18:39 PM)

-ok. I read the link.  I think this particular play should be placed on hold.  Use your talent to toward another endevour.  [later come back to it]

State goverment in those 2 states is very corrupt. When I heard that comment around Katrina I thought sure every state is corrupt. I seen a peice on tv- that the new young governor wants to re-do the state- so bussiness might consider there.

I doubt the sympathy aspect will get you very far.

Do a stunning peice of work- then let the demand be so great that they cant ignore you.

Illegal immegration is high attention 12-2007.  Presidential candidates who did not want to address it- have to.  I am not saying that it applies to you.

--do research on immigration law.  then plot your course.  the customs guard is just a cog in the wheel.  only doing his job.  a soft heart wont have the punch the being legalistically correct.  [I hate that it is this way- but it is]


It would be in your favor to have a University sponsor you. or a theator group.

a credit card could be of help too. even if it is secured.

The path of least resistance.  Thats what to go for. The cash you had was- well- maybe 4 days for hotel- so this was a small amount.  $2000.00 would have been better.

The visa you are thinking of -extreme talent.  I doubt you are in that classification.  [sorry]   [it is for like very popular Opra singers, sport legends, specialty Drs]

On the other hand if you marry a US citizen you are then in. [must last 3 years or it is fraud]



seeksfemslave -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 2:54:42 PM)

Stella, if you will take my advice, which I very much doubt, and I must tread very carefully now, the very worst thing you can do is to travel to another country and explain to them what they are doing wrong.he he he he he

My opinion is that you should open a theatre in the UK and offer me a free ticket to assess your minimalist efforts. I expect I may well be pleasantly surprised he he he
G'nite CM...Seeks has left the building !

adding:Seeks returns to the building to say that he got a message  indicating his posts were now to be free of the "awaiting approval " shackle. !
What happened ?



SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 5:10:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

snip
adding:Seeks returns to the building to say that he got a message  indicating his posts were now to be free of the "awaiting approval " shackle. !
What happened ?



you musta been a good boy.

[;)]



Aswad -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 5:30:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

I'm sorry this happened to you but I'm not shocked.  Unfortauntely things like this happen daily. I hope you can broadcast what happened worldwide..then maybe it will get enough attention to change something.


As far as I can tell, this is the usual hassle people go through when visiting the US, just with some prejudice thrown in. Virtually every person I know that has been to the US so far has advised me not to bother visiting, and virtually every conference that I have considered attending has been moved to other countries in the past few years, mostly scientific conferences. The reason being the hassle that international participants face when entering the country. Consequently, the US people become the ones who have trouble with customs (when leaving and reentering, not when entering the countries stuff has been moved to) and the focus of scientific communities shift away form the US. It is pretty clear that this problem will resolve itself, though not in the best interests of US citizens.

Health,
al-Aswad.



FirmhandKY -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 6:00:22 PM)

I've read the first part of this thread in detail.  I glanced over, and read in less detail the OP's profile. I've read the information provided in her last link above, to off site information.

I'm not going to waste a lot more time trying to figure anything out, because I can pretty well estimate what went on in Atlanta, and what's going on here.

The first thing I'll say is that I don't have any first hand knowledge of events. Neither do any of the "Yeah, America is one fuckup facist state" people either.

I do have experience and first hand knowledge of US Customs, TSA, Atlanta GA, Hartsfield (was there a couple of times in the last month or so), and an opinion of people such as the OP (not as TS - I could care less - but as personality types).

As it would appear to the authorities in Atlanta:

We have a non-citizen with no means of support, very limited funds and no definite plans who arrives on our "shores" and is evasive and non-committal about her planned activities and schedule while in the US.

A telephone call to the number which SHE provided gives details of an apparent attempt to engage in an illegal attempt to work in the US, in direct contradiction to her stated purpose, and the terms of her entry.

Based on her OP, and her other writings, she appears to be narrow-minded, vindictive, callow, and manipulative.

Hell .... I would have kicked her out as well.

Everything she claims, or says about her treatment, and the attitude of US authorities ... I simply chalk up to sour grapes, and her attempt to gain sympathy for her position.

I think she's full of BS, quite simply.

Firm



TheHeretic -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 6:39:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

I refuse to acknowledge what is written as US law.




      Well there's your problem right there. 

      



FirmhandKY -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 7:17:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

As far as I can tell, this is the usual hassle people go through when visiting the US, just with some prejudice thrown in. Virtually every person I know that has been to the US so far has advised me not to bother visiting, and virtually every conference that I have considered attending has been moved to other countries in the past few years, mostly scientific conferences. The reason being the hassle that international participants face when entering the country. Consequently, the US people become the ones who have trouble with customs (when leaving and reentering, not when entering the countries stuff has been moved to) and the focus of scientific communities shift away form the US. It is pretty clear that this problem will resolve itself, though not in the best interests of US citizens.

Health,
al-Aswad.



al-Aswad,

I have a high degree of respect for you, as I've read many of your posts, and taken your side in many of your arguments, albeit I've not necessarily joined in posting in those same arguments.

However, I'd say in this case that either I disagree with you, or, I don't really think your beliefs about the possible negative future effects on the "resolution" of the problem will have a the long-term negative effects on US citizens to which you allude.

Actually, I tend to believe just the opposite that you do: that in actuality, that the US is in the vanguard politically, culturally and socially, and that it is the European cultures and nations which will come to regret their choices in the last part of the last century and the first part of this century.

Firm



slaveboyforyou -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/18/2007 7:21:33 PM)

quote:

I took the decision to post this officer's report because I refuse to acknowledge what is written as US law.


If you're wanting to emigrate here, you'll have a hard time doing so if you refuse to accept our laws.  This was obviously your intention from the get-go.  If you came here on a tourist visa, with the intention staying I understand them detaining you.  I was sympathetic in the beginning, but the truth is starting to come around with your recent post. 

quote:

This is the first choice. Who do you show more tolerance? The transgendered female alien or the American in uniform who chooses to abuse his powers and deny someone their human rights? I've also requested the intervention and assistance in this matter from state and local government politicians in Mississippi - same choice.


You are obviously unfamiliar with the state of Mississippi. 

quote:

This has also caused me to bring up the issue of the post-Katrina trailer parks for which I'm including in Project Kotanski. I'm offering to go into the trailer parks with specialized drama and theatre workshops to change the trailer park communities and help bring these people closer to the rest of society. Again no funding required. I'm well aware that these people received huge amounts of money and for some of them it's been 'party time' and hence there's the drugs, cheap alcohol, prostitution, crime and other social problems. I know that not many people want to know about this issue, let alone talk about it or try to find a solution.


Again, you must be completely unfamiliar with people that tend to live in trailer parks in the South.  They are already parts of our communities.  Most of them tend to be fairly conservative in their thinking.  A theater and drama program meant to "teach" adults who are extremely independent in their thinking is going to go over as well as a fire eater performng at gas stations.

quote:

But you know one of the reasons I'm not giving up or giving in on these issues is that the more I look into all this the more I'm sold on being a part of the rebuilding of lives and communities in the American South - one of the richest areas of culture in English language culture, and this is culture because much of it comes out of poverty. You know I sometimes wonder - what if the states of Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee and Alabama never existed? What sort of music would we be listening to today? I just feel that the people at the very bottom of society have a lot to offer which is why I'm developing this project.


Again, I don't think you have a clue about the culture and social environment of the South.  I agree that we have a rich cultural tradition here.  However we have came a long way from the days of sharecroppers and rampant poverty.  It's not like that here anymore, and there is still a mistrust and dislike for people that come from other areas to "save" us.  You should read up on carpetbaggers and the history of the South. 





SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/19/2007 6:42:55 AM)

thank you slaveboy, for putting into words the things i was thinking but could not seem to grasp a way to communicate.



seeksfemslave -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/19/2007 7:22:07 AM)

quote:

FirmhandKY
Referring to Stella
I think she's full of BS, quite simply.


You're not the only one who thinks that  and I have posted as much on the two Stella threads.
Tho' I did use arty farty language eg "replete with of self absorbtion" lol

adding a special  [sm=flowers.gif]    for SeeksOnlyOne he he he he



pahunkboy -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/19/2007 7:22:38 AM)

The "vanguard"?  ouch.

When we presume there is all to know- and we own all there is to know on life and happiness -that we and we alone are masters of the commodity of happiness.- well as they say- [per haps] we deserve what we get.
Every person brings things to the table.  Maybe I am reading this in a different context..

The US meddles and antagonizes in everyones affairs- so much so that we the US create our own boogiemans and then set to slay them.   Historically we do this as a matter of buseness as usual. we are not to liked or welcomed be the larger international community and it has little to do with our "success" our trinbkets- it is our failure to mind our own business.

Greed and power currupts- and granted the same entities criticle may in fact do the same abuses we do if/when they are in the driver seat.

The notion that we need nobody  is short sighted- and dumb.

We collectivly need eachother.

Quite frankly we [in the US] are lucky the folks [or other countries] talk to us and befriend us.
"They " are trying to make sense of the madness- as are many of us on this board.

Anyhow- thanks for the candid debate.



pahunkboy -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/19/2007 7:26:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

FirmhandKY
Referring to Stella
I think she's full of BS, quite simply.


You're not the only one who thinks that  and I have posted as much on the two Stella threads.
Tho' I did use arty farty language eg "replete with of self absorbtion" lol




Madison ave would love her knack of convincing.   Get hired on Madison ave and you are in.

I think we very much need to know what is going on.  In a odd way it is good that we can still talk of this w/out being secretely hauled up to Siberia.  hiCup



kdsub -> RE: My two impressions of America (12/19/2007 8:40:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy


The US meddles and antagonizes in everyones affairs- so much so that we the US create our own boogiemans and then set to slay them.   Historically we do this as a matter of buseness as usual. we are not to liked or welcomed be the larger international community and it has little to do with our "success" our trinbkets- it is our failure to mind our own business.

Quite frankly we [in the US] are lucky the folks [or other countries] talk to us and befriend us.
"They " are trying to make sense of the madness- as are many of us on this board.

Anyhow- thanks for the candid debate.


I do believe you have it wrong pahunkboy.  The policies of the US are not what make us disliked. It is just pure jealousy. Through all the history of mankind and civilizations the powerful…successful…..superior … have been disliked because of fear and envy.

Countries like Great Briton…France… Germany all in there time were at the top of the heap of world powers and they meddled just as much if not more than the US ever has.

Soon the time will come when the United States is no longer at the top of the heap… then we can come to CM and snip at the next great power out of envy.

Butch



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