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RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 3:41:19 PM

BondageSlaveMN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AFlyInYourWeb

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I don't know, I think obedience is a defining quality of submission. If you are submitting to the will, desires, authority of another person you are obeying (following their will, desires, authority over your own). I'm not sure how you can be submitting to the demands/orders/authority of another and not be obeying their orders/demands/authority.

That nails it IMHO.

In the military, one accepts lawful orders from accepted authority. One can ignore or disobey an order, but, as the saying goes, you'll either end up with a medal or a court-martial.

In the military, there is an expectation of obedience. I know that for me, if I enter a D/s relationship, I expect to be expected to be obedient, unless she and I have agreed otherwise.

Ceratinly, any couple can construct their own rules in that regard.

Even in the Army, you might hang out with your sergeant in some dive bar in town, drink together, laugh at each other's jokes, and call each other by first name. However, at 0600 the following morning, you had better be awake, alert, in uniform, ready for inspection and duty, and your only acceptable answers were "Yes sergeant", "No sergeant", and "No excuse sergeant". If you needed to be frank, you asked "permission to speak freely". Otherwise, you obeyed his orders, and with all due haste and diligence.

I see my relationships with a Domina in similar terms...until she has a better idea

But you have identified the fallicy in the original argument. You pointed out that in the military you must follow only lawful orders. Not all orders dispensed by a dominant are "lawful." It is not acceptable for them to order a submissive to burn themselves if the submissive has stated amply that fire play is a hard limit.

(in reply to AFlyInYourWeb)

Post #: 21

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 3:42:07 PM

DarkDaddyZ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

Obedience is the cornerstone of my D/s relationship. I don't presume to decide what works for everyone else out there. The reason obedience is the cornerstone for us is that we both get off on that entire process - in a very serious way.

My ability to be obedient gets me hot. My obedience to him and his ability to be in control/charge of me gets him hot. I can't for the life of me imagine me being any other way and in fact, I never have been. He's just the first man I've ever been in a relationship with who knows how to do this exactly right - for him and for me.

And yes, we do have the understanding in place that if I'm choosing not to be obedient, I'm choosing not to submit. It's not fearful to me. It's exciting. It's a challenge and I DO love a challenge. And ultimately, it makes my heart full, my soul free and all sorts of other pithy kinds of responses.

How could I NOT be obedient? He's worth it all.

juliet

I like the fact that in your post that you made this a individual statement for you and your Owner. He is worth it to you so that's your personal cornerstone.

Best,
Z-

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(in reply to julietsierra)

Post #: 22

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 3:42:16 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BondageSlaveMN

Being relatively new to all this, I may be very mistaken in my response, so please bear with me and correct me should I commit some mistake.

It's your opinion, so I cannot fathom that you'd be mistaken or that I (or anyone else) could correct you about it. Share it. Listen to other opinions. If yours continues to make sense, stick with that. If further contemplation and information causes you to alter it, that's kewl too. Either way, it's yours to do with as you please.

quote:

A submissive always has the choice to disobey. This disobedience may carry with it certain consequences including but not limited to dismissal.

And this differs from a slave in what way?

John

_____________________________

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Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to BondageSlaveMN)

Post #: 23

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 3:42:26 PM

SageFemmexx

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Obedience is never a cornerstone of any D/s relationship I am in. Trust however is an absolute necessity. I will ask advice and mull it over, however I do as I choose and if it's a wrong choice, I take the consequences. I've learned through trial and error that he is often right but, our viewpoints are often on opposite spectrums. He says he is a liberal conservative and I am a conservative liberal thus, we manage to meet somewhere in the middle on most things. However, blind obedience is not and never will be one of them.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 24

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 3:46:32 PM

sambamanslilgirl

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fast reply

friendship and trust are the cornerstones of my relationships with my respected dominants. obedience came into play when i submitted to them and their authority.

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(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 25

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 3:49:59 PM

adoracat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

I do. However, it can sometimes be a slippery slope. What if the Master uncollared the slave and bid them farewell...because the Master was terminally ill? Would you obey then?

Master Fire

i didnt.

kitten

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 26

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 3:50:47 PM

tsatske

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obedience is certainly a cornerstone in my relationship, though not the only one. I am expected to obey him cheerfully and joyfully. When he asks, or orders, me to do something, the answer generally is, 'With joy'. When he requires something I really, really don't like, the answer is, 'Whatever pleases my Master.' Although our wants and needs are pretty well alighned, it is not perfect alighnment, and I have been required to do things that used to be hard limits - back when I was exploring and looking for my true owner, who I have clearly now found.
Disobience, however, would not get me dismissed. I know that, with very few, extreme exceptions. It would get a discussion, and possibly punishment or consequences. But it would not bring release. 'Obey or leave' is a dynamic that works for many people and there is nothing wrong with it, but it is not a required dynamic.

(in reply to Tigrita)

Post #: 27

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 3:54:38 PM

adoracat

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Daddy requires me to be honest and honorable. and to not stop loving him. sometimes he wants me to be obedient to him, and sometimes i cant. those times, he understands.

obedience....has its place. sometimes obedience isnt possible.

kitten

(in reply to adoracat)

Post #: 28

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 4:00:07 PM

DesFIP

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I find there are three main kinds of power relationships. One is based on obedience, another is based on service, and the third on emotional transparency. Obviously there is an intermixing of all of these to some degree.

But if your primary focus is emotional transparency, and you receive an order which would cause you to withdraw emotionally, then you are in fact obeying by disobeying the order because by disobeying, you don't put up a wall and you do keep the emotional transparency ahead of other orders.

For example, because I know this is difficult to read even to me who wrote it; say he gives me an order to call myself by various humiliating names. Humiliation is not something that I have any enjoyment of, and I tend to respond to its use by avoiding him, finding stuff to do in another room, not talking to him, I shut down sexually etc and I don't recover for weeks.

He prefers I be open to him at all times and aroused whenever possible. Therefore if he wants me aroused and happy to be with him, which he has said is of high importance, then I do better to refuse to act out the scene he wants to play out and remind him of why.

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(in reply to julietsierra)

Post #: 29

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 4:00:50 PM

julietsierra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SageFemmexx

However, blind obedience is not and never will be one of them.

What you call blind obedience is, to me, similar to those who say they have "no limits." The bottom line for me is that I was very careful in the beginning to choose someone whose idea of D/s and what's appropriate for us was similar to my ideas. Hence, while I strive to be consistent and strenuously obedient, it's not necessarily "blind." It's just consented to on the front end and trust for me, is me trusting in myself enough to know that obedience to him will not cause me to lose myself - even if at times, he is human and can err on the side of being untrustworthy. My view is that we'll work through those moments and move on.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 12/18/2007 4:03:03 PM >

(in reply to SageFemmexx)

Post #: 30

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 4:07:41 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita
What inspired this post is that I think a lot about how contrived this lifestyle seems a lot of the time. Sure, dominance and submission are natural dynamics in many areas of life, but I don't see why 'obey or leave' has to be the law of the land in BDSM relationships, it seems very artificial to me. I'm not saying it isn't great and fulfilling when the parties understand the rules and get mutual fulfillment out of that, but it doesn't seem like something that flows naturally without this organized lifestyle and its preconceptions, except, perhaps, with historical slaves and other enforced dynamics, but not romantic relationships.

In a monogomous partnership, each partner relies on the fidelity of the other. Each partner can count on this, and knows this constant to exist day in and day out.

In a 50's style arrangement, the man can count on the fact that, unless otherwise notified, he can come home to a clean home and a prepared dinner every night.

In a marriage with a stay-at-home wife and a working husband, the wife can rely on the husband to earn the income for the family, while she manages things at home (assuming that is their arrangement).

In all these arrangements, there are basic tenets of the relationship that are not only followed, but counted on. So take a D/s relationship - I will use mine as an example. My Master counts on my obedience. By counting on that obedience, he can rest assured that whatever he requires me to do for him will be done, and he doesn't have to think about it anymore. He won't have to worry about following up, like he might with a bad employee. And I can feel fulfilled by a job well done, and by his pride and pleasure.

To disrupt a basic tenet in any relationship can create undue chaos and stress in that relationship. When one can not rely on the partner(s) to withhold his/her/their end of the deal, I believe the relationship weakens, as there are added issues to contend with and emotions to sort. If I only obey some of the time, how will he know when I will and when I will not? If he can not count on me to do something for him that he wants or even needs done, then he is taking up mental energy by having to figure out a back up plan in case I decide this is something I won't be obeying. I can see this eventually breeding resentment and conflict.

Partial obedience would not work for my Master and I. He sought a slave who was willing to always obey, and I need to always be obedient. Giving him less than full obedience (minus the rare exception which may be necessary at times), is not being true to myself and not fulfilling my promise to him in this relationship. He has had girls who partially obey. He has not found them as fulfilling as a slave he can count on.

(in reply to Tigrita)

Post #: 31

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 4:07:53 PM

Tigrita

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I have another way of phrasing what I'm thinking...

So, before you discovered lifestyle BDSM, and the preconceptions of dominant and submissive, did you ever have a romantic/sexual relationship where there was an understanding that there were orders/expectations, and that to refuse was to incur punishment? It seems that this is an artificial construct of organized BDSM to me. And on the flip side, as stated in the original post, have you ever had a relationship that you considered D/s where obedience was not specifically enforced?

In my previous relationship I did a lot of things, mostly sexual, and mostly in his presence, that surrendered authority to him. I can't really think of anything I outright refused, but at the same time, I did not feel bound to obey or else face repercussions. I also wasn't afraid of 'topping from the bottom' but maybe that is a whole other discussion. Maybe I'll just mention though, since the line of thinking is similar for that, I was not afraid to be assertive about the kind of action that I wanted sexually, or in other situations. That doesn't mean that he didn't control the vast majority of the action, or that he was obligated to indulge me, but the concept of 'topping from the bottom' never occurred to me and the extent to which some dominants take that concept seems contrived to me as well, and it seems to generate a lot of confusion and dissatisfaction among submissives.

I guess it comes down to, does anyone else think this is contrived, or does anyone think it can develop naturally this way without all the preconceptions? (Again, not saying it isn't a good thing, I'm here, I like it too, my mind just wanders to the pre-CM days and why it was different.)

Carry on discussion please! I'm off for a swim and will be back to read more in an hour or two =)

< Message edited by Tigrita -- 12/18/2007 4:14:58 PM >

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Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

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(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 32

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 4:08:40 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

Thanks for all the interesting comments.

To those who believe that disobedience without consequence does not constitute D/s, I have an additional comment in disagreement. As I said, I submitted to a lot of things I would not have done if it were up to just me. To me, this is the essence of D/s, that I did, in many circumstances put his will ahead of mine, submit, obey. Just because I didn't do it all of the time, do the times I did submit and obey not count?

In my opinion, if you submit when it's convenient or when you feel like it, that's not D/s. When you obey only on your own whims, you're holding the power, not the dominant. I don't like scrubbing my toilet .. I do it anyway. We all do things we don't like to do on occasion.. especially for those we love and care for or respect. My view is, when you still make the choices and the decisions as to when you will and when you won't submit then it's not D/s although it may and probably is very satisfying to the parties involved. I find the idea very confounding, in point of fact. No doubt the view you'd have of my relationship in your world would be equally as puzzling.

quote:

What inspired this post is that I think a lot about how contrived this lifestyle seems a lot of the time. Sure, dominance and submission are natural dynamics in many areas of life, but I don't see why 'obey or leave' has to be the law of the land in BDSM relationships, it seems very artificial to me.

Well, now, it's not the 'law of the land'. There are plenty of folks who do not engage in that dynamic.. but there are plenty who do and I'm an example of one. I know the consequences of disobedience. Unless and until I'm prepared to deal with those consequences, I'm not willing to test them. Obedience is a box in my world and it's a box that I can't take my brains outside of to view from a differing perspective .. nor do I really want to try.

quote:

I'm not saying it isn't great and fulfilling when the parties understand the rules and get mutual fulfillment out of that, but it doesn't seem like something that flows naturally without this organized lifestyle and its preconceptions, except, perhaps, with historical slaves and other enforced dynamics, but not romantic relationships.

I don't get the opposite view either, but it's obvious that it all exists somewhere and people seem to be able to do it and find fulfillment in a variety of ways.. in the end, that's pretty much the only thing that matters.

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Tigrita)

Post #: 33

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 5:44:37 PM

SirJohnMandevill

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gardenista
Is obedience the cornerstone of my D/s dynamic? Well, yes. I submit to his authority, so sometimes that does mean following orders. Obeying. ;)

But our relationship, right now, resembles your description of your 1st. My submission isn't defined very rigorously. He is head of the house, but he doesn't always exercise that. But like you mentioned, it's there.

Well said, Gardenista! This is almost a perfect description of what I believe a D/s relationship should be. I personally would maintain the "head of house" role except in extraordinary circumstances. I feel strongly that's part of the Dominant's responsibility.

My .02 zlotys. Your milage may vary.

Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink)

_____________________________

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(in reply to Gardenista)

Post #: 34

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 5:53:10 PM

slaveluci

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita
The primary difference was that, even though there was a significant degree of what I now know by the label of ‘power exchange’, and I felt deeply submissive to him, there was no defined expectation of obedience. There were no commands really, no ‘obey or leave’, I was not afraid to question his judgment or refuse to do something he wanted

For us, there is an expectation of obedience. However, there is no "obey or leave" command and I am not afraid to question Him or refuse. I do obey and I don't refuse or question except in very rare instances. However, it's not because I'm "afraid" or I'll be made to leave if I don't.

This is a hot-button issue for some people. For many, they are in their relationship based on the agreement that every command will be obeyed and if not, they are then choosing to leave and end their submission/slavery/whathaveyou. I've been shredded here before for saying that disobeying is NOT going to end my relationship/slavery. It is our personal opinion (hold the flames because I'm saying this is for US) that if I have the ability to end my slavery by disobeying, then I am the one holding the power. If I decide I want out, I just disobey and He'll have to release me since that's the ultimatum He's established.

He has never bought into that. If I were to ever start disobeying like that, it wouldn't guarantee release. It would guarantee me being one unhappy, still owned slave until things were straightened out. I'm not just owned until I decide to end that ownership by disobeying indiscriminately. I entered this M/s relationship with the understanding that it would not end by my choice. Sure, I can still make that choice. But He's not going to allow me to leave. Is that abusive? Unlawful custody? I don't know. I don't care. It just is

. Anyway, just my two cents on how - even though there is that expectation of obedience - there's no "obey or leave" clause in our particular "contract".................luci

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RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 6:29:46 PM

thetammyjo

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Obedience is not the cornerstone of my ownership of Fox.

Our mutually agreed upon and maintained authority dynamic is our foundation.

Obedience can flow from that and disobedience is not allowed but I certainly want feedback, information, and sometimes a bit of attitude from him.

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(in reply to Tigrita)

Post #: 36

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 6:32:59 PM

Tigrita

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Really interesting reply slaveluci, I've never heard that concept before. Thanks for adding that to the discussion.

I had a few more thoughts while working out. I guess my motivation for posting this is that I'm able to relate a lot of what I enjoy about BDSM to primal mating and social dynamics. I'm not big into contraptions and contrived scenes, though they can be fun, they aren't by any means what fulfills me. I guess I feel that structured exptectation of obedience is contived in the same way. It wasn't part of the concept that led me here. But once here I found it such an almost universal concept, that I realized it would pretty much be part and parcel of a relationship that did meet my other deep needs and it was worth it to me to first open my mind to it, and then to give it a try. I've found it has made submission even deeper and more fulfilling and I'm very happy with that lifestyle now that I've gotten to know myself more, but I still don't think it makes my initial experience 'not D/s'.

I just find it weird that there isn't more gray area. If there is a distinction between TPE (total power exchange) and other lesser degrees of power exchange, where is the line drawn where the power exchange not enough to consider it D/s? I mean, when you're talking about an eclipse, you can have a total eclipse, or a partial eclipse. Even if it is only 20%, it is still an eclipse, right? You can't just say it doesn't count as an eclipse because it isn't total.

If my previous relationship was not D/s, what was it? No one is going to convince me it was vanilla with kinky sex. I can see that it would certainly be closer to top/bottom than to Master/slave, but aren't there a lot of shades of gray there? I'm just curious where people draw the line between kinky vanilla top/bottom and D/s. I'm sure it is different for everyone, I'm just interested in hearing people's opinions. Personally, I know that my mindset in that relationship was beyond kinky sex, but it also wasn't the dramatic extent of power exchange I usually see here. I'm just surprised more people haven't experienced more gray area (though I see some have).

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to slaveluci)

Post #: 37

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 6:42:34 PM

AFlyInYourWeb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BondageSlaveMN

But you have identified the fallicy in the original argument. You pointed out that in the military you must follow only lawful orders. Not all orders dispensed by a dominant are "lawful." It is not acceptable for them to order a submissive to burn themselves if the submissive has stated amply that fire play is a hard limit.

I think that in the context of a Safe, Sane, and Consensual D/s relationship, if a Dominant issues an order that was clearly insane, unsafe, or illegal, the submissive has a right, and indeed a duty, to disobey the Dominant. I would add that if it is within the submissive's power, it would also be their duty to prevent the Dominant from committing any act that was illegal, unsafe, or insane.

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Post #: 38

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 7:24:42 PM

Wildfleurs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

So, I’m curious as to whether anyone else has had relationships like this, where obedience is not a cornerstone, and if you still consider that D/s? Thoughts, comments?

To me, obedience is just a natural component of submission - I can't see how submission exists without doing what the person wants - and I can't say I've ever met someone who didn't have preferences, desires, whims, wants, and needs that could be followed (now whether they are clearly realized and articulated is a different issue).

C~

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(in reply to Tigrita)

Post #: 39

RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 9:00:00 PM

TemptingNviceSub

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I dont know ....maybe I am not reading this right...To me the cornerstone of a D/s, or any relationship, is communication and trust...the rest such as obedience etc falls under that perview of communication and trust....Tempting

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Post #: 40

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