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RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 9:12:28 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

If my previous relationship was not D/s, what was it? No one is going to convince me it was vanilla with kinky sex. I can see that it would certainly be closer to top/bottom than to Master/slave, but aren't there a lot of shades of gray there? I'm just curious where people draw the line between kinky vanilla top/bottom and D/s. I'm sure it is different for everyone, I'm just interested in hearing people's opinions. Personally, I know that my mindset in that relationship was beyond kinky sex, but it also wasn't the dramatic extent of power exchange I usually see here. I'm just surprised more people haven't experienced more gray area (though I see some have).

I don't think anyone is trying to convince you of anything, Tigrita and there are probably a lot more shades of grey than you think.

Commands of ABC are 'always' going to be obeyed. (say ABC = sexual activity, clothing choices and domestic duties)

Commands which involve D or E are up for debate depending on the variables (say D & E = employment & poly situations)

Commands which involve XYZ are never going to be obeyed (say XYZ = religion, finances and family)

You get to choose which letters you are willing to put into your relationship. It's when you agree that ABC are fair game then you turn around and say 'no' to ABC that I would say it's not D/s.

Hope that clears up my POV.

Celeste

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RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 9:59:42 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

So, I’m curious as to whether anyone else has had relationships like this, where obedience is not a cornerstone, and if you still consider that D/s? Thoughts, comments?

I can imagine that there are D/s relationships where obedience is not demanded, but given anyways... in other words I think people can submit to the will of another without actively "obeying" them in a structured way. I have interacted with men that did not expect or demand my "obedience", yet I strove to do their will anyways.

I was married by a feminist pastor, and she would have happily left "obey" out of the vows I made to my husband, I insisted that the word remain because that is the type of marriage I wanted, even back then. For me, in my relationship, I want someone with veto power, someone with the final word, and I do not want that person to be me.

I do not think it is cut and dried "obey or leave"... as if the first time I disobeyed I would be gone. But if I continually showed I had no desire to obey him, to yield to his control, he would question my desire to be obedient and submit to him. It would have to be continued disobedience and flouting his dominance for him to determine I really didn't desire to be his. And to be honest, if I continually was disobedient it would be because I wasn't submitting to his will...

I do not know if "cornerstone" is the right word... I suppose in my mind I cannot conceive of being submissive without being obedient... but that does not mean those types of relationships do not exist... it just means that for me it would not feel like submission if I were not to be obedient. To me obedience means I am doing as he wishes, not that he even has to tell me what to do. It means being a good girl, it does not mean he bosses me around all day long, it means doing as I know he wants me to do. It is not even formal, and does not require someone to give me an order.

I was an obedient child, and my parents had few rules... my Daddy is not formal, nor does he have a lot of rules... but if he does tell me to do something, it means something, just like when my parents told me what to do... and I think that is part of what makes me want to be obedient... he doesn't demand a lot out of me, he is mostly reasonable, and if I have trouble doing when he wants he listens to why this is so...

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RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/18/2007 11:53:04 PM

Tigrita

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I didn't mean to sound defensive about it. I'm perfectly secure in how I see that relationship, and my current one, both of which have made me happy at different times, for different reasons. I'm just inviting discussion, not trying to get validation. Thanks for your input Celeste.

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RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/19/2007 1:59:52 AM

IcySub

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The concept of "obey or leave" is usually seen in a M/s relationship where chances of the slave disobeying their Master (unless in a special circumstance, i.e. health issues) are highly unlikely. At best, I would consider the relationship you have with your partner as Top/bottom because there is not much potential to grow as a Dom or sub in it. Where is the real challenge? It's like running in a marathon where there are no winners or losers. Sure you've crossed the finish line but why? To me, obedience is a given in a D/s relationship, not to be confused with blind submission or the whole "I have no limits" bs. I would expect a consequence for being disobedient but not for a mistake; maybe I just like having that reinforcement. It's almost like saying you have no rules which in my opinion, isn't a D/s relationship period. I believe there are many shades of gray in the spectrum of BDSM but there has to be some 'cornerstones' that make it a D/s relationship in the first place.

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RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/19/2007 4:41:14 AM

RCdc

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I don't like the image of cornerstone either - but in this case, I would have to answer that the cornerstone - or rather fundemental assumption or basis of a D/s relationship is that there is domination and submission someone does one whilst the other is being done. Nothing more than that and I don't equate that with obedience.

Obedience, love, passion, service, monogamy, support, nakedness etc... are all subjective parts that are within each unique relationship and how it is within each relationship is purely down to the individuals involved.

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RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/19/2007 6:18:44 AM

mhawk

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just going to put this simply, in the order of things as they are set in my Lord and Mistress's house this is how things are working

1.submission
2. surrender
3.obedience

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RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/19/2007 6:55:01 AM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IcySub
Where is the real challenge? It's like running in a marathon where there are no winners or losers. Sure you've crossed the finish line but why?

Thousands of people run in the NYC marathon and 99.9% know they haven't got a chance of winning. So why do they do it? To grow, to beat their past best time.

You might be surprised by how many of us don't want a win/lose situation for our interpersonal relationships. We want to structure something that has no chance of losing. And anytime there's an 'or else' the possibility of loss is right out there.

If I didn't do what he needed me to do for no good reason, the problem then would be how had the relationship broken down so far and is there any way to fix it, are we both committed to it.

And what is a good reason here to not do something is probably very different than a good reason in your relationship, which is fine as long as both parties in the relationship in question are in agreement.

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RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/19/2007 7:21:25 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

I just find it weird that there isn't more gray area. If there is a distinction between TPE (total power exchange) and other lesser degrees of power exchange, where is the line drawn where the power exchange not enough to consider it D/s? I mean, when you're talking about an eclipse, you can have a total eclipse, or a partial eclipse. Even if it is only 20%, it is still an eclipse, right? You can't just say it doesn't count as an eclipse because it isn't total.

I, personally, don't think I have a right, since I'm not a Goddess, to decide where these divisions lay outside of my own dynamics. I find discussion of who is more or less an owner or slave becomes tiresome quickly because I don't feel a need to compare myself to others in that fashion and therefore can't grok the topic.

Personally I also do not believe that TPE is possible. I believe that every person has power until the day they die, maybe afterwards too. Therefore for me divisions between that TPE and anything else then becomes impossible in my mind.

For me, as I said, obedience is not our cornerstone.

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RE: Is obedience a cornerstone of D/s? - 12/19/2007 8:05:10 AM

RumpusParable

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

So, I’m curious as to whether anyone else has had relationships like this, where obedience is not a cornerstone, and if you still consider that D/s? Thoughts, comments?

I've not read the rest of the thread yet, so excuse please if this has already been covered sufficiently!

Obedience does not have to have a lot of window dressing to exist. There need be no stated-at-such orders, no lists of rules, nor even any stern or forceful tones of voice.

As much as I enjoy letting my haughty, imperial, demanding side out an order often comes from me in the form of a polite request or a soft statement of interest. "Would you get me a drink, please?" "Oh, I'd very much like to go there this weekend."

The same thing said to my sub as would be said to an equal, but when my sub does it they do so to obey my will because that's our type of interaction... whereas with another dominant, or sub I do not own, it would just be a favor between equals.

My longest D/s relationship was one where my partner clearly submitted to me and obeyed me on a daily basis for more than a decade... never once was there an Official Order Because I'm The Dominant. It just flowed in a very low key and natural-for-us way.

Nowadays, I enjoy both those types of relationships and those which are very focused on overt signals of authority status and protocol between us. But those overt signals aren't necessary to expressing my desires and my sub obeying and fullfilling them.

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