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RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/20/2007 2:41:06 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		Hmmmmmmmm...my first submissive was married, yet very submissive to me.  The concept of her being my property really did not occur to us.  My second submissive really wanted to be considered as property...like owned, she needed that mindset once in awhile of being human/not being human...object of possession while still a human submissive.  That took some work for both of us but we got there and I enjoyed it as did she.  My third submissive did not like the idea of being property and, given what I later learned, tis easy to see why.  Having been involved in a "property" dynamic and involved in those that were not, the biggest conclusion I came to is what it seems to come down to in most cases...what worked the best for the two of us generally was best though...with my experiences of having these submissives and talking to many others, dominant and submissive...I would probably veer more towards the property mindset and getting her into that mindset.  Doesn't make it better...makes it work for me.

(in reply to daddyncherry)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/20/2007 3:55:20 PM   
rubberpet


Posts: 1743
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: The Land of Voodoo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rubberpet
A slave is someone who reaches a higher level of submission, usually through collaring or other forms of formal ownership. Being a slave is a great commitment. They are the ones who give up as much freedom as humanly possible to the one they wish to serve. They accept their dominant's word as law and obey with no questions asked. They exist for that person and their happiness is drawn from the dominant's pleasure. But being a slave doesn't mean one doesn't have feelings, emotions, their own opinions, or the ability to think. Usually, slaves are very strong individuals who are more than capable of taking care of themselves, but choose to reliquish control to a dominant authority. It takes a very special kind of person to reach that level of submission. To me, a slave submits with mind, body, heart, and soul. I do my very best to be the best slave I can be for Mistress.


Rubberpet, I love your posts, the love you show for your Mistress continually shines through, but I cringed reading that passage.

A slave is no more special than a submissive, pet, daddy's lilgirl.  It takes a different mind set to reach a level of submission where you wish to ignore even your basic human rights, it's not a better mindset.  A slave is someone who reaches a different level of submission, based upon their own need to serve.  A slave is someone who is getting their own needs met, just as much if not more than they are meeting the needs of their Owner/Master, so their submission cannot be placed on a higher astral plane, viewed as coming from a deeper spiritual place. 

Being a wife is a great commitment.  Being a mother is an even bigger one.  Being in love is always a commitment.  We forget, in the context of power exchange relationships, that often the bond that really ties us is not the label of slave, or Master.  It's not because we have surrendered our rights to another.  It's because we have surrendered our hearts to another.  A submissive is every bit as capable of love and commitment as a slave, because both are equally as capable of love.



LittleWench, thank you for the kind words.  In reference to my post, I speak of the metaphoric consentual slave, a generalized term.  I never mentioned one was better than the other, just different mindsets.  Also, I never said being a slave was the greatest commitment of all.  It takes great commitment to reach that level of submission, but being a parent is, by far, the greatest commitment a person can undertake.  I was speaking strictly from a BDSM standpoint.  There is a difference in the levels reached by bottoms, submissives, and slaves, but it is all based on a person's preferences and mindsets.  

Everything in this world is about context and states of mind.  A slave is not better than a submissive, just a different mindset, that's all.  Everything is on an equal plane, but it's merely a matter of context.  Some slaves say they couldn't be just a submissive because they need something more, and some submissives say that they don't have the need or commitment to be a slave.  The terms are very similar, but they have enough differences to be considered different levels.  However, that is just my opinion.  It's all dependent on how much a person is willing to submit.  A slave has the need to serve, I agree completely.  Their need to serve has to be met for them to feel as if they have a purpose.  An M/s relationship is still give and take.  Both parties need to receive something for the equation to be equal.  It is a very delicate balance.

_____________________________

Collared and devoted property of Mistress Lorelei (vampchick88) as of 3/26/08.

Rubberpet - The Resident Anti-Subby and mysterious shadowy figure known as Voodoo, proud hitman and wiseguy for the Subby Mafia.


(in reply to LittleWench)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/20/2007 5:18:46 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet

LittleWench, thank you for the kind words.  In reference to my post, I speak of the metaphoric consensual slave, a generalized term.  I never mentioned one was better than the other, just different mindsets.  Also, I never said being a slave was the greatest commitment of all.  It takes great commitment to reach that level of submission, but being a parent is, by far, the greatest commitment a person can undertake.  I was speaking strictly from a BDSM standpoint.  There is a difference in the levels reached by bottoms, submissives, and slaves, but it is all based on a person's preferences and mindsets.  

Everything in this world is about context and states of mind.  A slave is not better than a submissive, just a different mindset, that's all.  Everything is on an equal plane, but it's merely a matter of context.  Some slaves say they couldn't be just a submissive because they need something more, and some submissives say that they don't have the need or commitment to be a slave.  The terms are very similar, but they have enough differences to be considered different levels.  However, that is just my opinion.  It's all dependent on how much a person is willing to submit.  A slave has the need to serve, I agree completely.  Their need to serve has to be met for them to feel as if they have a purpose.  An M/s relationship is still give and take.  Both parties need to receive something for the equation to be equal.  It is a very delicate balance.


Well, I have to commend you on not flat out saying "A slave is better than a submissive".

However, when you assign higher degrees of qualities that are valued by people in a general sense to one particular label while downplaying the significance of the other, it tends to read between the lines as "One is better than the other".

For example, when you imply that one generalization involves a greater amount of commitment to a relationship, you are automatically saying that the other generalization in diametric opposition involves less commitment.

Hence, it tends to translate as "Slaves are more committed to their partners then submissives".

I don't quite understand how you are able to adequately measure the commitment level of partners in other relationships as an outsider. That's a bit arrogant.

It tends to remind me of a discussion I had with a conservative friend who held the opinion that homosexuals are mostly about the sex and are less committed to their partners than a heterosexual couple because of the inability to bear children.

Your creditability might also be improved by not referring to slaves as "special people", since "special" is another quality that people put value on. While I would agree that not everyone can be a slave or submissive, I would imagine that the people who would find fulfillment in a M/S relationship would probably not be capable of handling a role in a vanilla relationship as a husband or wife.

But all in all, I think its not a bad essay....with respect to the fact that is only one small school of thought that doesn't match up to an endless number of M/S and D/S dynamics.

I guess that's why these kind of black and white definitions of the mass collection of dynamics that fall under the umbrella of D/S and M/S tend to get under my skin a bit.

I would place a good amount of money that if we gathered a large number of D/S and M/S couples and juxtaposed them, we would probably not be able to match one dynamic with another.



_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to rubberpet)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/20/2007 6:37:03 PM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
For example, when you imply that one generalization involves a greater amount of commitment to a relationship, you are automatically saying that the other generalization in diametric opposition involves less commitment.

Hence, it tends to translate as "Slaves are more committed to their partners then submissives".


Rubberpet, MadRabbit made my point perfectly.

I mentioned the commitment of a wife/spouse/husband, of a parent, to show that submissives (in fact any person) can understand what commitment is.  In a BDSM only framework, submissives are able to be as committed to their Dominant as a slave is to their Master.  For some, the level of commitment might be bound up with their label, with their assigned or accepted role within the relationship, but for many it is more dependant on their feelings for a person.

By the same token saying it takes a special person to be a slave, you are implying that submissives are not as special.  It takes a different person to be a slave, they have different needs and mindset as you acknowledged, no less special or wonderful than those of a submissive.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 4:12:51 AM   
rubberpet


Posts: 1743
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: The Land of Voodoo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
For example, when you imply that one generalization involves a greater amount of commitment to a relationship, you are automatically saying that the other generalization in diametric opposition involves less commitment.

Hence, it tends to translate as "Slaves are more committed to their partners then submissives".


Rubberpet, MadRabbit made my point perfectly.

I mentioned the commitment of a wife/spouse/husband, of a parent, to show that submissives (in fact any person) can understand what commitment is.  In a BDSM only framework, submissives are able to be as committed to their Dominant as a slave is to their Master.  For some, the level of commitment might be bound up with their label, with their assigned or accepted role within the relationship, but for many it is more dependant on their feelings for a person.

By the same token saying it takes a special person to be a slave, you are implying that submissives are not as special.  It takes a different person to be a slave, they have different needs and mindset as you acknowledged, no less special or wonderful than those of a submissive.



Like I said earlier, the generalized, textbook definition of a submissive (that I was taught by my first owner) is someone who will submit to a certain level or condition with the right to turn things off whenever he/she wants.  To me, by that definition, it shows a limit/boundary to the level of commitment or how far one is willing to go beyond the normal, "inalienable rights".  The same owner also said that a slave, by the same generalized definition, cannot turn things off whenever he/she wants to because he/she is accepting complete rule by their dominant.  To me, by that definition, there are no boundaries or limits to how deep one wants to immerse himself in that lifestyle.  Obviously he/she can refuse anything because this is consentual slavery and there is free will present, but the slave chooses to go deeper into the commitment to the lifestyle by "waiving those basic rights".  It is simply the way I was taught by my first owner.  I guess you can consider my way of thinking as old-school or old-fashioned.

I identify myself as a slave to my Mistress.  My submission to Her is unconditional.  I love Her with all my heart, I have unlimited trust in Her to rule over me in a safe and strong manner without the risk of being put in harm's way, and I have unlimited confidence in Her abilities to make the right decisions on things.  I am allowed to voice my needs, wants, concerns, wisdom, opinions and anything else that may pop into my brain, but I accept the fact that Her word is law at all times and choose not to withdraw for the boundaries of the Mistress/slave relationship.  I don't want extra freedoms like being allowed to turn things off whenever I don't feel like submitting or being looked at as Her equal.  Heck, if Mistress decides to lock me in multiple layers of rubber, I don't want the freedom to take it off whenever I want...I want it to be at Her discretion.  It's all about being COMPLETELY at Her mercy.  I want and need the closest thing I can possibly have to complete slavery to Her.  I don't want to be a submissive, I want to be a slave.  It's all a matter of mindset and perspective.

I'll close this by saying that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and while mine seems to have either offended or caused enough confusion to warrant such a discussion, it is just my opinion.  You can agree with it or you can disagree with it.  That is why it is an opinion and not a fact.  I think there is a difference in the definitions between submissive and slave, albeit a minor one, but still enough of a difference for me to think they deserve different categories.  You may view the terms as the same thing and while I don't agree with that opinion, I certainly don't view it as an incorrect statement.  It is simply a matter of viewpoint and perspective.  There is no right or wrong answer.  Just opinions.  You have your opinion and I have mine.

_____________________________

Collared and devoted property of Mistress Lorelei (vampchick88) as of 3/26/08.

Rubberpet - The Resident Anti-Subby and mysterious shadowy figure known as Voodoo, proud hitman and wiseguy for the Subby Mafia.


(in reply to LittleWench)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 5:48:38 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Like I said earlier, the generalized, textbook definition of a submissive (that I was taught by my first owner) is someone who will submit to a certain level or condition with the right to turn things off whenever he/she wants. To me, by that definition, it shows a limit/boundary to the level of commitment or how far one is willing to go beyond the normal, "inalienable rights". The same owner also said that a slave, by the same generalized definition, cannot turn things off whenever he/she wants to because he/she is accepting complete rule by their dominant. To me, by that definition, there are no boundaries or limits to how deep one wants to immerse himself in that lifestyle. Obviously he/she can refuse anything because this is consentual slavery and there is free will present, but the slave chooses to go deeper into the commitment to the lifestyle by "waiving those basic rights". It is simply the way I was taught by my first owner. I guess you can consider my way of thinking as old-school or old-fashioned.


I do not think this defnition "old school", I think it is crap, and it is not a "generalized textbook" definition... please provide referenced sources when you claim such things instead of "my first owner said". None of us know your first owner, nor did we have access to the same library obviously.

Edited to add, your opinion is as valid as any, but when you add things like "textbook defnition" to add credence to your opinion, well then you are saying your opinion is more factual than mine.. and it isn't

edited yet again to say that anyone that thinks labels that they use can describe the level of commitment they have are just fooling themselves. I have known people that are married and having an affair, who were more committed to their outside partner than their spouse. I have known parents that were more committed to everything else than their children.. labels mean NOTHING when it comes to describing the level of commitment one feels.

Now do I have other priorities besidesthe relationship I have with my Daddy, well yes, I am a mother, an employee, soon to be graduate student. I am committed to many things in this life, not to the exclusion of him though. I am also following what he wants because I am able to commit to many things in my life. I am just the submissive he wants me to be. The commitment to that is pretty all encompassing to me...

And yes, it is a little offensive that people think that just by using a label that they can come off as more committed and submissive than I am... but hey, we all have our delusions.


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/21/2007 6:03:56 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to rubberpet)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 6:09:17 AM   
rubberpet


Posts: 1743
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: The Land of Voodoo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Like I said earlier, the generalized, textbook definition of a submissive (that I was taught by my first owner) is someone who will submit to a certain level or condition with the right to turn things off whenever he/she wants. To me, by that definition, it shows a limit/boundary to the level of commitment or how far one is willing to go beyond the normal, "inalienable rights". The same owner also said that a slave, by the same generalized definition, cannot turn things off whenever he/she wants to because he/she is accepting complete rule by their dominant. To me, by that definition, there are no boundaries or limits to how deep one wants to immerse himself in that lifestyle. Obviously he/she can refuse anything because this is consentual slavery and there is free will present, but the slave chooses to go deeper into the commitment to the lifestyle by "waiving those basic rights". It is simply the way I was taught by my first owner. I guess you can consider my way of thinking as old-school or old-fashioned.


I do not think this defnition "old school", I think it is crap, and it is not a "generalized textbook" definition... please provide referenced sources when you claim such things instead of "my first owner said". None of us know your first owner, nor did we have access to the same library obviously.

Edited to add, your opinion is as valid as any, but when you add things like "textbook defnition" to add credence to your opinion, well then you are saying your opinion is more factual than mine.. and it isn't



Oh good lord, it's just my freakin' opinion!  Do people like you get their jollies by trying to disprove another person's opinion or critcize every single term or thought they write by saying that a view you don't agree with is crap?  I don't care if you think it's crap.  It was simply what I was taught by my first owner.  Posting on these forums is for learning different views, whether being factual or opinion.  I offered my opinion and views.  If you don't like my views or opinions, don't read them.  But you can get off your self-appointed high horse, lose your self-induced superiority complex, and accept the fact there are other opinions out there besides your own, which you may or may not agree with.  Besides, I didn't realize I had to provide a works cited page for an opinion posted on an open forum.

The term "textbook definition" is a generalized way to describe what I was taught.  I have no freakin' clue if it factual based or not.  It was what I was taught, it is what I accept, and it is simply my OPINION!

_____________________________

Collared and devoted property of Mistress Lorelei (vampchick88) as of 3/26/08.

Rubberpet - The Resident Anti-Subby and mysterious shadowy figure known as Voodoo, proud hitman and wiseguy for the Subby Mafia.


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 6:20:51 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Oh good lord, it's just my freakin' opinion! Do people like you get their jollies by trying to disprove another person's opinion or critcize every single term or thought they write by saying that a view you don't agree with is crap? I


I said saying that your opinion is a "Generalized definition that came out of a textbook and therefore is more factual than your opinion" is crap... you can have any opinion you like, no matter how silly it is. I can have an opinion that your relationship is abusive because you call yourself a slave, it does not make my opinion valid... see how that works?

quote:

If you don't like my views or opinions, don't read them.  But you can get off yourself-appointed high horse, lose your self-induced superiority complex, and accept the fact there are other opinions out there besides your own, which you may or may not agree with.  Besides, I didn't realize I had to provide a works cited page for an opinion posted on an open forum.


Im not the one claiming to be more committed based on a label, the high horse and sense of superiority is all yours. I post what I want, and if you do not like my responses, feel free to skip them.

quote:

The term "textbook definition" is a generalized way to describe what I was taught.  I have no freakin' clue if it factual based or not.  It was what I was taught, it is what I accept, and it is simply my OPI


Well the term "textbook definition" means it comes out of a "textbook".. please keep that in mind when using that term in the future.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to rubberpet)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 7:07:48 AM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet

Like I said earlier, the generalized, textbook definition of a submissive (that I was taught by my first owner) is someone who will submit to a certain level or condition with the right to turn things off whenever he/she wants. To me, by that definition, it shows a limit/boundary to the level of commitment or how far one is willing to go beyond the normal, "inalienable rights". The same owner also said that a slave, by the same generalized definition, cannot turn things off whenever he/she wants to because he/she is accepting complete rule by their dominant. To me, by that definition, there are no boundaries or limits to how deep one wants to immerse himself in that lifestyle. Obviously he/she can refuse anything because this is consentual slavery and there is free will present, but the slave chooses to go deeper into the commitment to the lifestyle by "waiving those basic rights". It is simply the way I was taught by my first owner. I guess you can consider my way of thinking as old-school or old-fashioned.


Greetings rubberpet :)

Your definition of submissive sounds more like a definition of a bottom.  Anyone can be a bottom regardless of commitment.  Your response did help to clarify something... you said the slave chooses to go deeper into the commitment to the lifestyle... I think I see where you are coming from? (dunno mebbe I am still confoozed)  Is it dedication to the lifestyle then, rather than dedication to one's Dominant, that makes one a slave? 

Please don't think I am attacking you rubberpet, rather I am challenging the teachings of your previous Owner.  Above you have acknowledged that both submissive and slave have the ability to say no.  Is a slave then someone who is less likely to say no?  Who has less boundaries?  Is a submissive more likely to say no?  Do they have more boundaries?  You don't have to answer these if you don't wish to, just some food for thought.  :)

quote:

I love Her with all my heart, I have unlimited trust in Her to rule over me in a safe and strong manner without the risk of being put in harm's way, and I have unlimited confidence in Her abilities to make the right decisions on things.  I am allowed to voice my needs, wants, concerns, wisdom, opinions and anything else that may pop into my brain, but I accept the fact that Her word is law at all times and choose not to withdraw for the boundaries of the Mistress/slave relationship.


That's beautiful :)  I have always loved reading your thoughts and feelings towards your Mistress, so powerful and evocative.  You know that's exactly how I feel about my Owner, yet I am "just" a submissive, a pet, nothing special ;)

You said you don't want to be a submissive, you want to be a slave.  If your Mistress treated you exactly as she does now, but from now on deemed that you were to be labelled her submissive, would you feel less special?  Less important?  Would your submission be worth less to her?  To you?  Again, you don't have to answer if you don't wish, food for thought.  :)

You have a fabulous day, and I hope you have something magical planned for the holidays.  Will you get to see your Mistress over the xmas break?  Wish I could see my owner *puppy pout*


< Message edited by LittleWench -- 12/21/2007 7:11:31 AM >

(in reply to rubberpet)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 8:20:26 AM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adoracat
 
its real, joy.  its just not factory equipment. 
 
kitten

That's cute, kitten.  Thanks for making me smile.  After having my leg amputated, the thought occurred to me that i should change my name to ilene   And, i keep having the urge to eat only at IHOP.
 
It helps to have a sense of humor......
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to adoracat)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 3:22:35 PM   
vampchick88


Posts: 346
Joined: 4/10/2007
Status: offline 		Well, well, well. Since when must one have to offer the name of a previous owner to make reference to them? I for one do not think anyone should be entitled to do so. Especially since you have not offered to, nor done so of your own accord ms. juliaoceania. Do not ask things of others that you are not willing to do yourself. As for saying others words are crap or silly…come on now really you must be so afraid on that high horse you seem to be stuck on I think your delirious.
Rubberpet merely meant to say in his own words of what being a slave to me was like to him personally. To completely say he was wrong without being able to experience things through his mind is pretty harsh. We are ALL entitled to our own thoughts, feelings, expressions, experiences, and words my dear. To try to tell a slave what he’s feeling is wrong and crap, even after he was so nice as to further explain his views. *Sigh* I guess you thought a slave has no rights to views? At least that’s how I’ve viewed it through the posts. Well I hope you have a better viewpoint of all this from that horse.
Personally I encourage his opinions. He has such great insight on topics that is different from my own. It helps me to see a broader spectrum of the world around me. Its one of the many reasons why I love him.

                                                                    Mistress Lorelei

_____________________________

Proud owner of rubberpet, the best investment of my time, trust, and heart that any Domme could ever dream of.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 3:44:03 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vampchick88

Well, well, well. Since when must one have to offer the name of a previous owner to make reference to them? I for one do not think anyone should be entitled to do so. Especially since you have not offered to, nor done so of your own accord ms. juliaoceania. Do not ask things of others that you are not willing to do yourself. As for saying others words are crap or silly…come on now really you must be so afraid on that high horse you seem to be stuck on I think your delirious.
Rubberpet merely meant to say in his own words of what being a slave to me was like to him personally. To completely say he was wrong without being able to experience things through his mind is pretty harsh. We are ALL entitled to our own thoughts, feelings, expressions, experiences, and words my dear. To try to tell a slave what he’s feeling is wrong and crap, even after he was so nice as to further explain his views. *Sigh* I guess you thought a slave has no rights to views? At least that’s how I’ve viewed it through the posts. Well I hope you have a better viewpoint of all this from that horse.
Personally I encourage his opinions. He has such great insight on topics that is different from my own. It helps me to see a broader spectrum of the world around me. Its one of the many reasons why I love him.

                                                                   Mistress Lorelei


Which would be cool if he could keep to solely writing within the context of his opinion and personal opinions.

However, he's not. He's making references to textbook definitions and generalizations involving other people's relationships that are pretty inaccurate.

If it's his opinion that slaves are better and require more commitment and have a higher state of freedom, well hey...that's cool. However, I sincerely doubt that is a truth that extends far beyond his own perceptions and subjective personal preferences for a relationship.



_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to vampchick88)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 4:08:00 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet

Like I said earlier, the generalized, textbook definition of a submissive (that I was taught by my first owner) is someone who will submit to a certain level or condition with the right to turn things off whenever he/she wants. 


Okay...you were clearly taught a definition of a slave by one individual. This is a far cry from being a textbook definition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet
To me, by that definition, it shows a limit/boundary to the level of commitment or how far one is willing to go beyond the normal, "inalienable rights".  The same owner also said that a slave, by the same generalized definition, cannot turn things off whenever he/she wants to because he/she is accepting complete rule by their dominant. 


Are you talking about non-consensual slavery or consensual slavery? It sounds to me like non-consensual, because regardless of whether one enters a M/S or D/S relationship, both have the right to turn everything off by leaving the relationship.

This right doesn't disappear. If it did, it won't be consensual slavery. It would be non-consensual slavery...which is illegal.

Now...once again...you are creating a generalized statement of other's people's relationship based on your own home made definition. You are using that definition to say that people who are submissives are doing X, Y, and Z.

However, what I am trying to get at, is the vast number of D/S relationships out there don't fall even close to the parameters you have listed here. Just pay attention to the narrations presented on boards like these.

Plenty of people who dawn themselves with the label of submissive are in committed, long term relationships where they live with their partner. They choose the label of submissive for a variety of different reasons, even some as minor as just simply not liking the word slave.

It's great that you are trying to educate people with your own philosophy, but to take that philosophy and use it to make generalizations that negate the worth and value of other people's relationships...well....thats a little bit unfair don't you think?

Having a generalized definition of the words slave and submissive don't amount to much when the definitions don't match up to the living objects who use the words.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet
To me, by that definition, there are no boundaries or limits to how deep one wants to immerse himself in that lifestyle.  Obviously he/she can refuse anything because this is consensual slavery and there is free will present, but the slave chooses to go deeper into the commitment to the lifestyle by "waiving those basic rights".  It is simply the way I was taught by my first owner.  I guess you can consider my way of thinking as old-school or old-fashioned.


Okay... so you are aware of free will and consent so at this point you must realize how silly it must be to negate submissives for being able to turn everything off at once when realistically slaves can do the same exact thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet
I identify myself as a slave to my Mistress.  My submission to Her is unconditional.  I love Her with all my heart, I have unlimited trust in Her to rule over me in a safe and strong manner without the risk of being put in harm's way, and I have unlimited confidence in Her abilities to make the right decisions on things.  I am allowed to voice my needs, wants, concerns, wisdom, opinions and anything else that may pop into my brain, but I accept the fact that Her word is law at all times and choose not to withdraw for the boundaries of the Mistress/slave relationship.  I don't want extra freedoms like being allowed to turn things off whenever I don't feel like submitting or being looked at as Her equal.  Heck, if Mistress decides to lock me in multiple layers of rubber, I don't want the freedom to take it off whenever I want...I want it to be at Her discretion.  It's all about being COMPLETELY at Her mercy.  I want and need the closest thing I can possibly have to complete slavery to Her.  I don't want to be a submissive, I want to be a slave.  It's all a matter of mindset and perspective.


I would agree mindset and perspective. You have a mindset and perspective of your own and based on your narrations, it seems great for you. However, isn't it a bit arrogant to try and make a generalized statement of what mindset and perspectives submissives in others relationships have?

The amazing thing about individuality is that you want to be a slave because you feel and think X and don't want to be a submissive because by being that, you will feel and think Y. However, other people who are submissives might not be feeling and thinking Y. They might not have less commitment, love, freedom or yaddda yadda. They might be thinking and feeling X, U, or V and if they took on the label of slave they might be feeling and thinking S, T, or R, and not the Z you are feeling and thinking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet
I'll close this by saying that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and while mine seems to have either offended or caused enough confusion to warrant such a discussion, it is just my opinion.  You can agree with it or you can disagree with it.  That is why it is an opinion and not a fact.  I think there is a difference in the definitions between submissive and slave, albeit a minor one, but still enough of a difference for me to think they deserve different categories.  You may view the terms as the same thing and while I don't agree with that opinion, I certainly don't view it as an incorrect statement.  It is simply a matter of viewpoint and perspective.  There is no right or wrong answer.  Just opinions.  You have your opinion and I have mine.


I won't call the differences you listed as being minor, but hey...thats subjective.

As I mentioned before, referencing a textbook definition isn't an opinion. It's stating a fact that has a degree of truth to it provided by an authority...which is what textbooks are...authorities on a particular subject which people can reference for truth.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to rubberpet)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 5:46:43 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

They choose the label of submissive for a variety of different reasons, even some as minor as just simply not liking the word slave.


That would be my Daddy and I, we do not like the term slave

The idea that a label makes a person more committed is a pet peeve of mine, it is as if the people who state these things are saying that vanilla people lack commitment in their relationships.. it isn't the label, it is the individual


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 6:10:19 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Well, well, well. Since when must one have to offer the name of a previous owner to make reference to them? I for one do not think anyone should be entitled to do so. Especially since you have not offered to, nor done so of your own accord ms. juliaoceania. Do not ask things of others that you are not willing to do yourself. As for saying others words are crap or silly…come on now really you must be so afraid on that high horse you seem to be stuck on I think your delirious.


Since I am not the one offering textbook definitions purporting the one twue way to be totally committed to my D-type person, I suppose it would be silly for me to offer the nick of a former dom. I rarely speak of my former dom. I do have a present one, his name is Sinergy, and I am extremely dedicated to him and I love him deeply.  My love would not be deeper just because I took the title "slave".

quote:

Rubberpet merely meant to say in his own words of what being a slave to me was like to him personally



He has made reference to submissives being "less committed" and not as "deep" as slaves a few times on this thread. He stated these were generalized definitions, and i will reiterate... his defnitions were not out of a textbook, not general, nor old school, and any assertion of that being so is just crap. I did not say anything he said about himself personally was crap, just his assertions that he had the one twue definition of slavery v submission... he doesn't... he only has his own. If he had stated that his opinions were based entirely on his own circumstances and his life, I would never have commented...It is when people start asserting that their label is so much deeper, committed, and superior based upon some invented definition that I call it crap

quote:

I guess you thought a slave has no rights to views? At least that’s how I’ve viewed it through the posts.


OMG... if you knew how far off base that comment directed at me is... that shows me that you have read none of my past postings... read my sigline... I am not defining what a slave does or does not do. Or what they should or should not do. You have made some very amusing assumptions about me based upon my posts on this thread not founded in extant reality. Some of the people who have the opinions I admire most on this board self label as slaves... thank goodness they post here.

quote:

Well I hope you have a better viewpoint of all this from that horse.


There is no room on it, you and your slave won't share

quote:

Personally I encourage his opinions. He has such great insight on topics that is different from my own. It helps me to see a broader spectrum of the world around me. Its one of the many reasons why I love him.


My Daddy not only encourages my opinions, he wouldn't have a submissive without them. In fact it is through my opinionatedness that I serve him... he loves my brain, and he has the sharpest intellect of any dominant I have ever known, in fact of almost any person I have ever known.




.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to vampchick88)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 6:25:28 PM   
grizzledathlete


Posts: 12
Joined: 12/20/2007
Status: offline 		cherry,

To me, a dominant is someone who occasionally enjoys dominating another person within certain pre-arranged limits.  A submissive is someone who occasionally enjoys submitting to another person within certain pre-arranged limits.

A master is someone who dominates another person on an ongoing basis with few or no limits attached to the domination.  A slave is someone who submits to another person on an ongoing basis with few or no limits attached to the submission.  A slave always has the right to say "I don't want to be a slave anyomore," and the master has the obligation to respect that right.  The master has the right to end the relationship if the slave has said they don't want to be a slave anymore.  I would also say that a general limit on masters is that they must protect the slave's life and limb.

I don't use the term daddy or owner.  I don't use the term property.  They just are not exciting or meanful to me.

Jeffrey

(in reply to daddyncherry)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/21/2007 9:16:08 PM   
daddyncherry


Posts: 656
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: grizzledathlete

I don't use the term daddy or owner.  I don't use the term property.  They just are not exciting or meanful to me.

Jeffrey


Thank you for your viewpoint, but the terms Owner and  property were exactly what this thread was made for....the other things were incidentals and only meaningful to this particular thread by the way they relate to Owner/property.

i'm not trying to pick on you but i was totally just curious about people who identify as property and what makes that differerent from a sub/slave if at all.

Thanks though.



_____________________________

Hugs,
cherry

Walking through life, and fear with a smile on my face.
Walking directly through the eye of the hurricane...and through to the other side..without fear....realizing everything will be okay. :)

being obedient 1day at a time

(in reply to grizzledathlete)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/22/2007 3:40:51 AM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Cherry,

Darlin' you gotta change your picture, those legs drive me to distraction! 

I think the responses you got from those who identify with having an Owner, but don't identify as property, had good insights also.  In an Owner/property equation the property is only half.  Do those that like to feel like property do so because they like feeling owned, or because they like the objectification?

< Message edited by LittleWench -- 12/22/2007 3:41:22 AM >

(in reply to daddyncherry)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/22/2007 6:31:43 AM   
grizzledathlete


Posts: 12
Joined: 12/20/2007
Status: offline 		I beg your pardon.  You are right, I should have paid more attention to your original questions:

quote:

  So what does being property mean to you?
What is the difference between an Owner and say a Daddy, Master etc ? (to you)
What is the difference between slave, sub and property? (to you)


(in reply to daddyncherry)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Property?How does it differ... - 12/22/2007 9:53:54 AM   
daddyncherry


Posts: 656
Joined: 10/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleWench

Hi Cherry,

Darlin' you gotta change your picture, those legs drive me to distraction! 

I think the responses you got from those who identify with having an Owner, but don't identify as property, had good insights also.  In an Owner/property equation the property is only half.  Do those that like to feel like property do so because they like feeling owned, or because they like the objectification?


First spank you very much for the sweet comment, you just started my day off on a good note

As for responses, i have totally gotten some very good ones.....ownedgirlie, yours of course, definitely slavegirljoy's and a few others have really given me good insight on the differences in what it could mean to be property....

i guess i am property and my Master/Daddy is an owner even though those are not the terms we readily identify with.

Thanks again for making me smile


_____________________________

Hugs,
cherry

Walking through life, and fear with a smile on my face.
Walking directly through the eye of the hurricane...and through to the other side..without fear....realizing everything will be okay. :)

being obedient 1day at a time

(in reply to LittleWench)
Profile   Post #: 60
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