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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 8:56:07 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Two of the three pillars that are asserted to support the Big Bang hypothesis are the redshift of far galaxies and the cosmic background radiation. I have for the moment forgotten what the third one was, but I do recall that it sucks as well. So there is not any credible evidence for an initial explosion having occurred.


You can argue that obviously but it is a bit like saying we have no idea what the core of the earth is made up of because there is no definitive test for that either. You look where the majority of the results are pointing and that is what you accept as being good enough for the time being. Was Newton right about his laws? No, but we still use them because they suit most applications. You seem to be saying we should discount such theories because they aren’t 100% definitive and on the basis that someone told you God created the universe for us. Now if I was God and I needed to create an environment for humans would I make the environment so big that the humans get lost in the centre of it? I need to make a home for my ants, now I have a spare planet floating about here somewhere for my ants to live on. Don’t worry that my ants don’t even take up 0.0000001% of the space. One day they will look up at the stars in wonderment that I wasted so much space for them. I don’t want to limit their imagination now do I?

If I was to mention the Tolman tests and the work done by Lubin you would also take issue with this and find flaws whereas I’m asking why they point in the same direction and ruling out things that can’t possibly fit. No one started asking this question yesterday and a lot of theories and tests have been ruled out in the process. That is what the process is about: ask a question, propose a test, review the results to see if they support other tests and indicate the validity of a theory. In these situations, no you can never say for sure but you can evaluate what is most likely to be true. There is no such way of finding validity in religion as far as I am aware and no one is even asking that.


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(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 9:09:03 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Being external does not preclude causal interaction per se (the word physical is redundant).
'Outside' the universe there is Nothingness: no time, no distance, no mass, no energy. So the word physical is not redundant, but required. The Divine is the unmoved mover. The concept causality in our universe requires unidirectionality of time and such things as the Newtonian laws of mechanics, none of which 'exist' 'outside' our universe.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 202
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 9:18:27 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

But killing members of the species is immoral and determental unless, of course, it's to prevent a more immoral event (such as that member killing others).


This is called agent-centric morality, and is thoroughly rejected by most of the world's population, and most ethicists. In its simplest form, it can be phrased like this: quod licet jovi, non licet bovi.

Substitute Jupiter for your local PD, a vigilante, an army or whatever, if you feel like it.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 9:22:24 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: country89

I believe that there needs to be a God for people to have morals.


So does this "necessary" god of yours imbue everyone with morals, including unbelievers?

quote:

You wouldnt feel guilty or think twice about doing something just because of your conscience.


I think more than twice about doing tons of things.
But I dropped my conscience years ago.
After all, who needs guilt?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 9:37:17 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

I will say that you have a flare for debate just as your profile indicates; however, I also see that I am nearly thirty years older than you are.


Yes, but he's a man, so he's right.
Ageism is no better than sexism, you know.
Existing for longer does not confer anything on you.
It just means that you have had more time to learn things.
Not that you have actually used that time sensibly, or even at all.

quote:

Later in life you will face life challenges.


Lady, I faced more life challenges in the first 25 years of my life than most 50 year olds I know ever have.
While I do not know what kind of background CuriousLord has, neither do you.

quote:

I am not judging you for how you think, but I can almost promise that one day you will need some type of faith to fall back on.


James Randi is tons older than you, and his only faith is atheism.
Myself, I have not relied on faith to cope with such things.
Neither has my (atheist) father, or his father.

Why do you automatically assume that someone is too weak to cope with life?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MissSCD)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 9:39:41 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

And it is well known that Mary had premarital intercourse with the Roman soldier Panthera, who was the father of Jesus. So in its very roots Christianity permits premarital sexual relations.


Interesting. I have not encountered documentation to substantiate this. Care to expand


An obscure writing [...snip...]


Thanks.

quote:

The idea of a 'virgin' birth was added after the fact not unlike the miraculous birth of Buddah. The early Christians didn't need Jesus to be God in order to believe or to see value in his teachings. Jesus didn't even become Divine until Constantine figured it was the only way to unify his empire. i don't need Jesus to be divine as i personally believe that my God uses ordinary people to do extraordinary things. i don't need a Jesus who was born in miraculous circumstances or a Jesus who was bodily lifted into heaven. my faith is mine and does not depend on these things.


Well said.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 9:50:10 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

[...]Mishnah[...]Tosefta Chullin 2:22-24[...]Yeshu ben Pantera[...]Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus [...]Sepphoris[...]Jacob of Kefar Sikhnin[...]Rabbi Eleazar ben Dama[...]Maier[...]Richard Bauckham[...]Jude and the Relatives of Jesus, pp. 114-119[...]Celsus[...]Origen[...]Contra Celsum 1. 69[...]Epiphanius


Thanks. I've made a note of it. Note, though, that Eliezer and Eleazar are the same name, basically. The vowel points are different, but those are only recorded in more modern works, as I recall.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 9:56:17 AM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		We cannot discuss religion on this board in peace because of people choosing to be anti-religion at the age of 20.
I would almost be willing to bet, that at some point in your perfect life, you will need a greater power.  
Such a sad thing to see a young person exhibit so much hatred to something he has not experienced yet.
 
Regards, MissSCD

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 10:36:42 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

We cannot discuss religion on this board in peace because of people choosing to be anti-religion at the age of 20.


I don't see the relevance of CL's age. Either his points are valid or they're not.

quote:

I would almost be willing to bet, that at some point in your perfect life, you will need a greater power.


Two reactions:

-- CL has pointed out in other threads that his life is far from perfect and has indeed included major rough patches.

-- This argument plays into a key point that nontheists make, namely people believe in God because faith provides a crutch rather than because it is true.


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to MissSCD)
Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 10:53:14 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Everytime you disagree with me, from abortion to religion, you claim it's due to age.. that I'm naive. Then you go on to claim that, later in life, I'll become troubled, and then that'll make me want what it is you like.. be it abortion or religion. I try to ignore such posts, but I suppose you wanted it addressed?

As dcnovice pointed out, points are valid or they're not. If you'd like to discuss them, then by all means, you're free; however, simply questioning my age is of little productivity outside of supporting my feeling that religion can be a crutch for those unable to deal with life in earnest.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 12/31/2007 11:02:26 AM >

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 10:59:03 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
You seem to be saying we should discount such theories because they aren’t 100% definitive and on the basis that someone told you God created the universe for us.
I did not say anything like that. Please do not project your whimsical fabrications onto me.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
Now if I was God and I needed to create an environment for humans would I make the environment so big that the humans get lost in the centre of it?
It was no effort at all.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
If I was to mention the Tolman tests and the work done by Lubin you would also take issue with this and find flaws whereas I’m asking why they point in the same direction and ruling out things that can’t possibly fit.
Interesting ideas. I did not know about them. The flaw is obvious, though: they conform to paradigm, as anything will untill the paradigm is shifted. It is very interesting that the Tolman tests are considered to have done away with the tired light hypothesis, as I have formulated a tired light hypothesis, inclusive of an equation, myself at the end of the last century - and I know that my model is correct and that my equation is approximately correct (I had to guess the value of a constant).
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
No one started asking this question yesterday and a lot of theories and tests have been ruled out in the process. That is what the process is about: ask a question, propose a test, review the results to see if they support other tests and indicate the validity of a theory.
That is a process that conforms to paradigm, so it has value only when the paradigm is correct.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
There is no such way of finding validity in religion as far as I am aware and no one is even asking that.
Theology was not conceived to find validity, but to study the antics of the gods and to consider the implications and consequences of their acts and pronouncements.
Thus theology is very axiomatic and it is hard to shift paradigm in theology - more so as religions tend to cling tenaciously to their tenets.

The validity of those acts and pronouncements of the gods was a matter of fact; there are even records about a case in a Greek court where Athena and Apollo were present and spoke during the proceedings.

< Message edited by Rule -- 12/31/2007 11:01:31 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 11:50:15 AM   
eyesopened


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Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Still want to know which Order of Catholic Knights run around and indiscriminately "knight" people in absentia and if knighted in absentia how that provides anyone with authority to know much about the institution offering the knighthood. *shrug*


While a valid concern, it's little more than another post being used as nothing more than a personal attack.

I am a tad confused, though.. I was told the Bishop held the service; unless he also happened to be a "knight", I am unsure if such individuals were actually involved. Even if they were, I'm sure they're too busy slaying dragons at the moment to help out here, or perhaps some of them are leading the war against the demons of hell and their encampments on the far corners of the world.


Not a personal attack in the least.  You offered your "knighthood" as credentials for your authority on Christianity.  If you were a doctor, various boards would do a credentialing process to validate claims.  Now, spending years playing Dungeons and Dragons would not necessarily make a person an authority on either dungeons nor dragons but could possibly prove to have some other value as a gaming experience.  Just looking to validate the credentials offered. 

But in case you were wondering.... you were most likely not knighted by a bishop into any Catholic Order.  The Church is very proud of its tradition of documenting such events and there would have been a certificate.  Now if you were really knighted, you could contact the Diocese and ask for a copy.  Might prove useful in the future.  *shrug*

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 11:52:21 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Full Circle it needed to be as big as it is, to make humans, perhaps ET life also.  The whole process of creating complex atoms in the center of stars that explode, then concentrating the higher atoms, into organic molercules, dumping them on planets via collisions, ect.  It takes a lot of room and time (from our perspective, from other perspective, perhaps not so much).

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 12:54:43 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		I'm sure something was provided. Unfortunately, it was at a time in my life I have little memory of. It was probably a bigger deal to me back then than it is now.

I'm rather sure, though, it was the bishop; not D&D. Could've been in chess, though.

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Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 1:14:40 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		It does seem odd to offer credntials from a period of your life you,"have little memory of". 

Google Catholic Knights, and you get an Insurance Company, Some groups like the Knights of Columbus, and and international alliance of Groups like and including the Knights of Columbus

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Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 1:19:14 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		On the knighthood thing: Was it connected with becoming an altar server? They're sometimes called, a tad grandly for my taste, knights of the altar.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 3:58:36 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Incorrect. You can prove the chemical reactions of attraction and arousal, but not of love. Try again.

It was in response to you saying that only those things that can be scientifically proven, actually exist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Can you prove love exists using scientific methods?


Sure. There's chemicals in the brain for it now. They even can tell you when love's worn off. (Supposedly, romantic love has a maximum contineous duration of two years in most cases, meaning LTR's need to suppliment their basis with more than just it.)

While an interesting subject, how might it be relevant? (Were you trying to ad absurdum scientific verification?)


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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 4:06:59 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Incorrect. You can prove the chemical reactions of attraction and arousal, but not of love. Try again.


"Try again?" Oh, come now. You honestly believe that love is anything more than a complex series of chemical reactions? Or is it that you honestly believe such chemical reactions couldn't be detected with surficiently advanced technology?

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Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 4:11:06 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Hah, aw, but I have so many wonderful credentials for that time period!

If you chose to doubt that I've been knighted in the Catholic Church, that's fine; I do hate it, though, when threads turn into debates about me, particularly when it turns to me instead of a more interesting subject..

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Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/31/2007 4:12:17 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Now we see what the real problem is. If you do not believe in the essence of love beyond the physical, then of course you cannot believe in anything else beyond the physical. There are many people like you, but very few I have found that are happy past a certain age. Hopefully you will find something to believe in, beyond what science can prove. Is not me saying you need to find religion either, just saying that beyond everything you can touch, taste, hear, smell, and see, is something you can believe in.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 220
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